I've had an accident tonight - how to learn from it?
Discussion
Good evening everyone!
So I've had an accident this evening.
It was dark outside already and it had rained lightly during the day.
Think wet streets, still no puddles.
Comming from a friend, I had picked up something to eat on my way home which rested on my passenger seat.
While I left a street that was dropping to the left through a right hand bend of ~45° I lost my Citroen C1 and from this point on everything happened in a rush.
I found myself facing towards a road sign and a field to the right and answered with steering to the opposite left which the car after some time reacted to with an immediate and way too extreme change in direction to the left, where in the end I found myself and the car stopped by an Toyota Auris(?) which was parked at the side of the street.
As I hit the Toyota almost in an right angle I hit both of it's doors, the centre pillar as well as the bottom wheel arch.
On my car the left front wheel, the left front light as well as major parts of my bumper and the left front wheel arch are wrecked, the driver's door doesn't open properly.
Thankfully nobody was hurt.
Just to put it very clearly, this accident was caused solely by my own fault, I don't want to look for excuses like an unexpectedly slippy street or other circumstances.
What leaves me speechless, is, I was absolutely surprised by the events and thus far from being able to react appropriately.
In almost six years of driving I have piloted and co-piloted a bright variety of cars, some of them very powerful and aggressive.
I have worked as a shuttle driver at foreign cities and countries, I have participated in (oldtimer) rallies, I have been to track days and of course I have spend numerous night hours on empty parking lots sliding in the snow.
I really enjoy driving and the confidence customers, friends & family have in my driving skills till today left me in the impression I was an above average driver for my age and the limited experience I was able to collect in this few years of possession of a drivers licence.
Hands down, I am a young guy, I have speeded on public roads in the past, when doing so I have always been on my own, on streets that I know very well, streets have been dry and I have only done so out of villages.
This accident happened within the villiage I live at, streets were wet, it was dark outside, the food I had on my passenger seat remained where it was before the accident, my driver's air bag did not open, the Toyota was not even pushed up the kerb by my impact but was still standing on the street.
What I am trying to say, is, while I was allowed to go 30km/h, most people pass this point at around 45-50km/h, I was not looking at my speedmeter but I would guess I was doing something like 35-40km/h which already was below what cars around myself were doing plus way below what I would have considered dangerous.
The impact deformed a lot of metal and made quite some noise, but didn't feel very hard and as I am absolutely fine eventhough I was still holding the steering wheel while the impact I feel I really wasn't going that fast.
From the times I have been speeding significantly I know how my car feels like when slowly losing grip and starting to understeer and I never felt uneasy staying in control, just as one would expect of a low powered FWD car.
This time it felt more like a RWD car in the wet on cold tires letting loose on a big V8 engine, no period of understeer but immediate loss of control and when back in grip as immediate a change of direction as a loss of control beforehands.
This accident really scares me and lets me doubt myself and my driving skills.
I don't want to lose the enjoyment driving is, yet especially because this happened to me in a situation in which I did expect absolutely nothing to happen, I am afraid I might kill somebody or myself the next time something like this happens.
I would like to know what you think of incidents like that and if you have experienced something similiar before and what/how you learned from it.
Please excuse my poor English, I am trying my best.
Best wishes and a save ride from Germany!
So I've had an accident this evening.
It was dark outside already and it had rained lightly during the day.
Think wet streets, still no puddles.
Comming from a friend, I had picked up something to eat on my way home which rested on my passenger seat.
While I left a street that was dropping to the left through a right hand bend of ~45° I lost my Citroen C1 and from this point on everything happened in a rush.
I found myself facing towards a road sign and a field to the right and answered with steering to the opposite left which the car after some time reacted to with an immediate and way too extreme change in direction to the left, where in the end I found myself and the car stopped by an Toyota Auris(?) which was parked at the side of the street.
As I hit the Toyota almost in an right angle I hit both of it's doors, the centre pillar as well as the bottom wheel arch.
On my car the left front wheel, the left front light as well as major parts of my bumper and the left front wheel arch are wrecked, the driver's door doesn't open properly.
Thankfully nobody was hurt.
Just to put it very clearly, this accident was caused solely by my own fault, I don't want to look for excuses like an unexpectedly slippy street or other circumstances.
What leaves me speechless, is, I was absolutely surprised by the events and thus far from being able to react appropriately.
In almost six years of driving I have piloted and co-piloted a bright variety of cars, some of them very powerful and aggressive.
I have worked as a shuttle driver at foreign cities and countries, I have participated in (oldtimer) rallies, I have been to track days and of course I have spend numerous night hours on empty parking lots sliding in the snow.
I really enjoy driving and the confidence customers, friends & family have in my driving skills till today left me in the impression I was an above average driver for my age and the limited experience I was able to collect in this few years of possession of a drivers licence.
Hands down, I am a young guy, I have speeded on public roads in the past, when doing so I have always been on my own, on streets that I know very well, streets have been dry and I have only done so out of villages.
This accident happened within the villiage I live at, streets were wet, it was dark outside, the food I had on my passenger seat remained where it was before the accident, my driver's air bag did not open, the Toyota was not even pushed up the kerb by my impact but was still standing on the street.
What I am trying to say, is, while I was allowed to go 30km/h, most people pass this point at around 45-50km/h, I was not looking at my speedmeter but I would guess I was doing something like 35-40km/h which already was below what cars around myself were doing plus way below what I would have considered dangerous.
The impact deformed a lot of metal and made quite some noise, but didn't feel very hard and as I am absolutely fine eventhough I was still holding the steering wheel while the impact I feel I really wasn't going that fast.
From the times I have been speeding significantly I know how my car feels like when slowly losing grip and starting to understeer and I never felt uneasy staying in control, just as one would expect of a low powered FWD car.
This time it felt more like a RWD car in the wet on cold tires letting loose on a big V8 engine, no period of understeer but immediate loss of control and when back in grip as immediate a change of direction as a loss of control beforehands.
This accident really scares me and lets me doubt myself and my driving skills.
I don't want to lose the enjoyment driving is, yet especially because this happened to me in a situation in which I did expect absolutely nothing to happen, I am afraid I might kill somebody or myself the next time something like this happens.
I would like to know what you think of incidents like that and if you have experienced something similiar before and what/how you learned from it.
Please excuse my poor English, I am trying my best.
Best wishes and a save ride from Germany!
Edited by ERDi on Sunday 8th January 23:58
Edited by ERDi on Sunday 8th January 23:59
Your English is very good, but tyres are not tires unless you're American. In fact, your English is a lot better than many PHers...
PS...beforehand.
Sorry to hear about your thrutch. Put it down to experience, take more care in the wet, don't drive a French car and, more important than anything, remember, you never stop learning.
PS...beforehand.
Sorry to hear about your thrutch. Put it down to experience, take more care in the wet, don't drive a French car and, more important than anything, remember, you never stop learning.
Very quick reply as I'm off to bed!
Sorry to hear of your accident but as you say the main thing is no one was injured.
You may not yet be able to rule out mechanical failure, although it's probably the most unlikely cause of accidents.
It may be that there was something like diesel on the road, however, smooth and progressive steering through bends is something that many people don't master, which can unsettle a car, especially if combined with something like diesel on the road.
The best way I can describe it is you should aim to begin to turn the wheel slowly at first, progressively turning it faster as you progress through the bend.
Many drivers will get to the bend and turn the wheel fairly suddenly while braking, which will unload the rear (especially the inside).
Hope that helps but I'm sure someone far more experienced than I will be along with some proper advice!
Sorry to hear of your accident but as you say the main thing is no one was injured.
You may not yet be able to rule out mechanical failure, although it's probably the most unlikely cause of accidents.
It may be that there was something like diesel on the road, however, smooth and progressive steering through bends is something that many people don't master, which can unsettle a car, especially if combined with something like diesel on the road.
The best way I can describe it is you should aim to begin to turn the wheel slowly at first, progressively turning it faster as you progress through the bend.
Many drivers will get to the bend and turn the wheel fairly suddenly while braking, which will unload the rear (especially the inside).
Hope that helps but I'm sure someone far more experienced than I will be along with some proper advice!
Judging from all the cars that were passing by without problems after I had parked my car out of the way and also having had a look at the street after all this happened I would say - no - just wet...
PS: I was running winter tyres which were supposed to be very good in the wet and also having passed a few km beforehand the accident, I'd say they at least weren't dead cold.
PS: I was running winter tyres which were supposed to be very good in the wet and also having passed a few km beforehand the accident, I'd say they at least weren't dead cold.
Edited by ERDi on Monday 9th January 00:11
Some thoughts, were your tyres at the correct pressures? Perhaps a tyre had punctured and was losing pressure?
A C1 and you say you have experience of more powerful cars, which can lead to complacency when driving low powered cars such as a C1. By which I mean, in a low powered car the temptation can be to be agressive with the accelerator pedal to "get it going" such that you might have all the power going through the wheels, whilst also steering and then hitting a puddle or low friction surface on the road, which could result in what you had happen.
A C1 and you say you have experience of more powerful cars, which can lead to complacency when driving low powered cars such as a C1. By which I mean, in a low powered car the temptation can be to be agressive with the accelerator pedal to "get it going" such that you might have all the power going through the wheels, whilst also steering and then hitting a puddle or low friction surface on the road, which could result in what you had happen.
ERDi said:
Good evening everyone!
Comming from a friend, I had picked up something to eat on my way home which rested on my passenger seat.
Is your problem. It sounds like you took your attention off the road to pick up some food, while you were negotiating a bend or a junction on a hill. I'm guessing chips (I really hope it wasn't a chicken korma!). The problem is, 99.99999% of the time doing what you did wouldn't cause an issue, and you wouldn't have even realised how close you were to a crash any other time. I think I can safely say that the majority of people have eaten while driving though.Comming from a friend, I had picked up something to eat on my way home which rested on my passenger seat.
Technically speaking this can be quite a serious offence if the CPS want it to be. Think yourself lucky there were no people around to hit - "there but for the grace of god go I" and all that.
davepoth said:
Is your problem. It sounds like you took your attention off the road to pick up some food, while you were negotiating a bend or a junction on a hill. I'm guessing chips (I really hope it wasn't a chicken korma!). The problem is, 99.99999% of the time doing what you did wouldn't cause an issue, and you wouldn't have even realised how close you were to a crash any other time. I think I can safely say that the majority of people have eaten while driving though.
Technically speaking this can be quite a serious offence if the CPS want it to be.
I hadn't thought of the eating while driving, however I'm not sure the CPS' remit extends to Germany although, who knows, with the EU and all that.Technically speaking this can be quite a serious offence if the CPS want it to be.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
I think those people of the insurance and workshop who will take care of the quite big damage I caused will have a close look at my car and what might have happened.
I am not an expert and of course it would calm myself down knowing all this might have been caused by a material failure of the car, still I am afraid to say, that I predict an operation failure - too much throttle and/or too excessive steering - of my own to be far more likely to be the cause of all this.
As you have said low powered cars tend to make you hammer them, especially when they have small 1 L engines which live from rev'ing them and you have driven Cooper S/JCW, Type R, Cupra R/GTI/R32 type cars before, not to mention having experienced acceleration of the likes of Mercedes CLS, Porsche 911, AC Shelby Cobra 427, Ford GT40 replicas with modern big blocks etc...
EDIT:
Nope, I have not been eating, the Kebab I picked up was packed till I ate it at home one and a half hours after the accident.
The reason I mentioned it was, to show that it remained in place even after the impact, which is one of the reasons I try to tell myself I was not speeding irresponsiblly.
I think those people of the insurance and workshop who will take care of the quite big damage I caused will have a close look at my car and what might have happened.
I am not an expert and of course it would calm myself down knowing all this might have been caused by a material failure of the car, still I am afraid to say, that I predict an operation failure - too much throttle and/or too excessive steering - of my own to be far more likely to be the cause of all this.
As you have said low powered cars tend to make you hammer them, especially when they have small 1 L engines which live from rev'ing them and you have driven Cooper S/JCW, Type R, Cupra R/GTI/R32 type cars before, not to mention having experienced acceleration of the likes of Mercedes CLS, Porsche 911, AC Shelby Cobra 427, Ford GT40 replicas with modern big blocks etc...
EDIT:
Nope, I have not been eating, the Kebab I picked up was packed till I ate it at home one and a half hours after the accident.
The reason I mentioned it was, to show that it remained in place even after the impact, which is one of the reasons I try to tell myself I was not speeding irresponsiblly.
Edited by ERDi on Monday 9th January 01:24
ERDi said:
Thanks a lot for your reply.
I think those people of the insurance and workshop who will take care of the quite big damage I caused will have a close look at my car and what might have happened.
I am not an expert and of course it would calm myself down knowing all this might have been caused by a material failure of the car, still I am afraid to say, that I predict an operation failure - too much throttle and/or too excessive steering - of my own to be far more likely to be the cause of all this.
As you have said low powered cars tend to make you hammer them, especially when they have small 1 L engines which live from rev'ing them and you have driven Cooper S/JCW, Type R, Cupra R/GTI/R32 type cars before, not to mention having experienced acceleration of the likes of Mercedes CLS, Porsche 911, AC Shelby Cobra 427, Ford GT40 replicas with modern big blocks etc...
Well, at least you want to learn from this experience, which is good because it will make you a better driver.I think those people of the insurance and workshop who will take care of the quite big damage I caused will have a close look at my car and what might have happened.
I am not an expert and of course it would calm myself down knowing all this might have been caused by a material failure of the car, still I am afraid to say, that I predict an operation failure - too much throttle and/or too excessive steering - of my own to be far more likely to be the cause of all this.
As you have said low powered cars tend to make you hammer them, especially when they have small 1 L engines which live from rev'ing them and you have driven Cooper S/JCW, Type R, Cupra R/GTI/R32 type cars before, not to mention having experienced acceleration of the likes of Mercedes CLS, Porsche 911, AC Shelby Cobra 427, Ford GT40 replicas with modern big blocks etc...
Around here, in this forum, we often talk about smooth inputs to all controls and having the car balanced. That applies whatever power any car has.
Thanks for your reply once again.
You know, young people do stupid things.
I think everyone of us knows your parents/friends/teachers can tell you certain things for a thousand times, you will just listen/learn if you do them wrong on your own.
In German we say "Wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen" = He that will not hear must feel.
Not saying this is the way it should be at all and certainly there are people out there who are smarter than I am and who don't have to experience an accident like that before knowing their driving might be too dangerous for these conditions.
I did not.
Just saying it once again, I have not felt like racing when all this happened.
I have pushed this car to what felt totally different boundaries before just to see what it and what I was capable of, this incident here just catched me off guard, all I wanted to do was return home safely to eat dinner.
It really makes me think of what other things I might do wrong on a regular basis and just have been lucky enough to get away with.
When I feel like racing, the only people I want to put into danger is myself and others who know and accept the risk of racing.
There are pictures of pedestrians running through my head who I might have hit if the Toyota would not have been in place and if I don't want to do one thing in my life, it might be injurying/killing others because of stupid fun of my own.
Regarding your advice of the balance of a car, you mean one shouldn't push a city bug, like the C1, the way one would push for example a 911 which is obviously meant for sporty driving?
The small width of my tyres might have been too few to handle both steering and acceleration at the same time under these conditions while the ones of a 911, combined with it's greater weight, might not?
You know, young people do stupid things.
I think everyone of us knows your parents/friends/teachers can tell you certain things for a thousand times, you will just listen/learn if you do them wrong on your own.
In German we say "Wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen" = He that will not hear must feel.
Not saying this is the way it should be at all and certainly there are people out there who are smarter than I am and who don't have to experience an accident like that before knowing their driving might be too dangerous for these conditions.
I did not.
Just saying it once again, I have not felt like racing when all this happened.
I have pushed this car to what felt totally different boundaries before just to see what it and what I was capable of, this incident here just catched me off guard, all I wanted to do was return home safely to eat dinner.
It really makes me think of what other things I might do wrong on a regular basis and just have been lucky enough to get away with.
When I feel like racing, the only people I want to put into danger is myself and others who know and accept the risk of racing.
There are pictures of pedestrians running through my head who I might have hit if the Toyota would not have been in place and if I don't want to do one thing in my life, it might be injurying/killing others because of stupid fun of my own.
Regarding your advice of the balance of a car, you mean one shouldn't push a city bug, like the C1, the way one would push for example a 911 which is obviously meant for sporty driving?
The small width of my tyres might have been too few to handle both steering and acceleration at the same time under these conditions while the ones of a 911, combined with it's greater weight, might not?
Edited by ERDi on Monday 9th January 02:01
ERDi said:
Thanks for your reply once again.
You know, young people do stupid things.
I think everyone of us knows your parents/friends/teachers can tell you certain things for a thousand times, you will just listen/learn if you do them wrong on your own.
In German we say "Wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen" = He that will not hear must feel.
Not saying this is the way it should be at all and certainly there are people out there who are smarter than I am and who don't have to experience an accident like that before knowing their driving might be too dangerous for these conditions.
I did not.
Just saying it once again, I have not felt like racing when all this happened.
I have pushed this car to what felt totally different boundaries before just to see what it and what I was capable of, this incident here just catched me off guard, all I wanted to do was return home safely do eat dinner.
It really makes me think of what other things I might do wrong on a regular basis and just have been lucky enough to get away with.
When I feel like racing, the only people I want to put into danger is myself and others who know and accept the risk of racing.
There are pictures of pedestrians running through my head who I might have hit if the Toyota would not have been in place and if I don't want to do one thing in my life, it might be injurying/killing others because of stupid fun of my own.
I was once young, a long time ago and made similar mistakes to you, on two and four wheels.You know, young people do stupid things.
I think everyone of us knows your parents/friends/teachers can tell you certain things for a thousand times, you will just listen/learn if you do them wrong on your own.
In German we say "Wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen" = He that will not hear must feel.
Not saying this is the way it should be at all and certainly there are people out there who are smarter than I am and who don't have to experience an accident like that before knowing their driving might be too dangerous for these conditions.
I did not.
Just saying it once again, I have not felt like racing when all this happened.
I have pushed this car to what felt totally different boundaries before just to see what it and what I was capable of, this incident here just catched me off guard, all I wanted to do was return home safely do eat dinner.
It really makes me think of what other things I might do wrong on a regular basis and just have been lucky enough to get away with.
When I feel like racing, the only people I want to put into danger is myself and others who know and accept the risk of racing.
There are pictures of pedestrians running through my head who I might have hit if the Toyota would not have been in place and if I don't want to do one thing in my life, it might be injurying/killing others because of stupid fun of my own.
Yes, we all, when young, think we know better than those older, then we get older and understand.
Some events help to make us grow older when young. A saying in the UK is "An old head on young shoulders", you're starting to have that.
Of course, Germany, get down the 'Ring and have your fun.
ERDi said:
While I left a street that was dropping to the left through a right hand bend of ~45° I lost my Citroen C1 and from this point on everything happened in a rush.
I found myself facing towards a road sign and a field to the right and answered with steering to the opposite left which the car after some time reacted to with an immediate and way too extreme change in direction to the left
I'm not an expert (or even close to one I found myself facing towards a road sign and a field to the right and answered with steering to the opposite left which the car after some time reacted to with an immediate and way too extreme change in direction to the left
) but a couple of observations. I think there are two stages in this. The first is the cause of the initial loss of grip and the second is the attempt to correct it.For the first, I think it's fairly hard to be able to determine the cause, although things to consider may be the line you took through the bend, the road surface and the inputs you were applying (steering, throttle, brake) which may have caused the car to become unsettled.
For the second, I think it's important to look at the point where you noticed the car was starting to lose grip and how that was reflected in the inputs you were applying. For example, lifting off the throttle may amplify the problem and steering the other way at this point may simply cause the front tyres to break traction and leaving the car unresponsive. It can then be tempting in these situations to apply more lock (as it feels like nothing is happening) and this delays the tyres regaining grip further. When the speed comes down such that the tyre regains traction the car then "surges" in the direction the wheels are pointing, which can be a completely unexpected direction.
At the end of the day, it's good that no-one was injured and commendable that are asking what went wrong. Accidents do happen and it may be that there was nothing you could have done to prevent it, but I found "limit handling" days very useful in understanding more about how a car reacts to driver inputs, recognising early when a car is losing grip and options for correcting it. Fortunately, however, I've never been in a position to test it on the public roads.
Chris
Good morning Chris and thanks a lot for your reply.
As you can imagine I have thought through the accident a lot of times already, I'd say there are the following points which made me react the way I did and turned it into what it is.
1. The unexpected and immediate loss of control catched me completely off guard.
I have never experienced my car lose all of it's grip before, especially in a situation like that and in that very little of a time.
I have passed bends of a smaller radius and of greater angle in way higher speeds and could easily feel the level of grip decrease.
When being aware of what was happening I think my reaction to a decreasing grip level of a FWD car is right, but you can tell me now.
I either keep the steering lock and lift the throttle so the tyres regain grip, or if I have already hit the apex of the bend keep my steering lock and push the throttle so the car 'carries' me through.
2. To be honest the next and only thing I was thinking about and reacting to was the road sign in front of me.
I thought of it like a tree and know that a great mass, like a car is, with some momentum stopped by a small/thin yet very tough piece of scenery can cause significant damage to both the car and the driver.
I wanted to prevent the car and myself from it and just hoped for enough space to catch the car.
3. Happening in split seconds I was not thinking about how stupid a full opposite steering lock in a small one-way street was and at the point the car regaines grip it is just very expected of it to surge around to the very direction the tyres are pointing at.
Looking at the street which is only 1,5 times as broad as a car there was just not enough time and space to correct it another time and prevent it from crashing into the parked Toyota.
So what I am reflecting about, as I think very few drivers would have prevented an accident after the car went out of control, the given space was just too little and it was either field (best option), road sign (probably most dangerous for the car and myself) or whatever was to the left, as I said earlier, everything happened too fast to even think about it, in this case the Auris (most expensive and regarding there was a pedestrian most dangerous for others), is, which inputs did I give to the car to initially lose control.
Was I going too fast for the wet conditions in general, did I just forget about shifting down, or was the speed just too high for too much of a steering lock I applied together with some brake/throttle?
I honestly don't know and as a lot of you have stated earlier, chances are great I will never know for sure.
Likely the best thing would have been to go slower in general just too be super safe, do you agree?
As you can imagine I have thought through the accident a lot of times already, I'd say there are the following points which made me react the way I did and turned it into what it is.
1. The unexpected and immediate loss of control catched me completely off guard.
I have never experienced my car lose all of it's grip before, especially in a situation like that and in that very little of a time.
I have passed bends of a smaller radius and of greater angle in way higher speeds and could easily feel the level of grip decrease.
When being aware of what was happening I think my reaction to a decreasing grip level of a FWD car is right, but you can tell me now.
I either keep the steering lock and lift the throttle so the tyres regain grip, or if I have already hit the apex of the bend keep my steering lock and push the throttle so the car 'carries' me through.
2. To be honest the next and only thing I was thinking about and reacting to was the road sign in front of me.
I thought of it like a tree and know that a great mass, like a car is, with some momentum stopped by a small/thin yet very tough piece of scenery can cause significant damage to both the car and the driver.
I wanted to prevent the car and myself from it and just hoped for enough space to catch the car.
3. Happening in split seconds I was not thinking about how stupid a full opposite steering lock in a small one-way street was and at the point the car regaines grip it is just very expected of it to surge around to the very direction the tyres are pointing at.
Looking at the street which is only 1,5 times as broad as a car there was just not enough time and space to correct it another time and prevent it from crashing into the parked Toyota.
So what I am reflecting about, as I think very few drivers would have prevented an accident after the car went out of control, the given space was just too little and it was either field (best option), road sign (probably most dangerous for the car and myself) or whatever was to the left, as I said earlier, everything happened too fast to even think about it, in this case the Auris (most expensive and regarding there was a pedestrian most dangerous for others), is, which inputs did I give to the car to initially lose control.
Was I going too fast for the wet conditions in general, did I just forget about shifting down, or was the speed just too high for too much of a steering lock I applied together with some brake/throttle?
I honestly don't know and as a lot of you have stated earlier, chances are great I will never know for sure.
Likely the best thing would have been to go slower in general just too be super safe, do you agree?
LHD, 45 Right hand bend... in a village... is the road Tarmac or Concrete or cobbles or paved?
Broken Tarmac actually gives good grip in the wet, but concrete does not and can be like ice with little ball-bearings on it.
The camber might be important too, many 'estate roads' in Europe are concrete and have negative [fall-off] cambers and can be treacherous and oil or diesel is not required to have an off that makes no sense to the driver.
Plus cold tyres on cold concrete that is wet is not good for grip.
Many possibilities.
Broken Tarmac actually gives good grip in the wet, but concrete does not and can be like ice with little ball-bearings on it.
The camber might be important too, many 'estate roads' in Europe are concrete and have negative [fall-off] cambers and can be treacherous and oil or diesel is not required to have an off that makes no sense to the driver.
Plus cold tyres on cold concrete that is wet is not good for grip.
Many possibilities.
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