Over-assisted brakes. Aaaghh

[MC Bodge]

I recently obtained a 59 reg Mondeo Estate. It seems generally good. It is more refined and bigger than my Mk3, although I'm not entirely convinced that the driving experience is better.

The major problem I have with it is the brakes. They are very effective at stopping the car, but they are far too keen/sharp, the brakes bite with an extremely light push, with far too little pedal travel and the pedal is much higher than the throttle pedal even when applied.

Having cleaned the front discs and pads they are a little less grabby, but careful modulation of the brakes to balance the car (and on less than perfect surfaces) and smooth transitions between brake and accelerator (and vice versa) is difficult. Using both pedals simultaneously (heel/toe)in this car is also extremely difficult to pull off due to the combination of pedal height and short pedal travel.

As far as I am concerned, the sharper brakes actually detract from the cross-country performance of the car as they have become akin to an on/off switch with no feedback, like a digital gamepad on a Playstation.

Most drivers will probably like the security of a sharp pedal and will not know or care about what I am talking about. My initial test drive was on urban roads and a short stretch of very wet motorway so the problem wasn't quite so apparent.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 28th December 08:23

[chrisispringles]

Over assisted brakes appear to be a problem across the current Ford range, the brakes on the Fiesta and Focus are both far too sharp to be much fun as well. Drove me nuts.

[The Black Flash]

Is this emergency brake assist? On many newer cars hitting the pedal quickly (rather than hard) fires this off, which enhances the braking force considerably. I definately adjusted the way I use the brake pedal to suit. If I go from our MGB back to the Mitsubishi or vice versa, always takes a while to adjust before I can brake as smoothly as I like.

I guess most people see a light brake pedal as equalling "good brakes", and neither know nor care about blending, heel & toe etc. I know that Nissan said in their marketing about 10 years ago that they did some tests, and a fair percentage of drivers couldn't actually lock the wheels, hence the move to huge amounts of assistance.

[williredale]

I know what you mean about the brakes. Wife has a Zafira in which the pedal acts more like a switch than anything else. Approach a junction, apply brakes gently... nothing... press a bit harder... stop. Usually some distance short of where I wanted to!

I've kind of got used to them but they are so different to my cars that they catch me out sometimes.

I much prefer the brakes to have some sort of progressiveness (is that a word?) and feel to them.

[R0G]

This is going to sound odd but are drivers pushing or squeezing these brakes?

[Mastodon2]

williredale said:

I much prefer the brakes to have some sort of progressiveness (is that a word?) and feel to them.

My thoughts exactly. The worst brakes I've ever felt were in my mother's old Clio Campus, the first inch of pedal travel had nothing, then about 80% of the braking force came in all at once. Made the car a pain to drive smoothly as you had to really nudge the pedal over the tipping point to avoid a jerky stop. In comparison, the brakes in my old Fiesta had much less stopping power (and no ABS) but much, much more feel, so you could always tell how close you were to locking the wheels in the wet.

[budgie smuggler]

chrisispringles said:

Over assisted brakes appear to be a problem across the current Ford range, the brakes on the Fiesta and Focus are both far too sharp to be much fun as well. Drove me nuts.

I've hired quite a few runaround cars recently due to accident damage on mine, and own a recent Focus myself. Always found the brakes of Fords to be the best of the bunch (albeit still too assisted).

Vauxhall in particular are ridiculously light feeling, but somehow still lack power. As if a light touch gives you 90% of braking force and there is nothing much more in reserve no matter how hard you push the pedal down.

I do agree with the OP about the pedal positioning tho.

[davepoth]

You'll likely find that the throttle won't work with the brake pressed to stop people doing it accidentally.

With ABS it doesn't really matter how hard you brake, the car will make sure you don't crash.

[MC Bodge]

R0G said:

This is going to sound odd but are drivers pushing or squeezing these brakes?

Rest assured, as someone who is a keen motorcylist and mountain biker, I'm not pushing/stabbing the brakes.

[MC Bodge]

davepoth said:

You'll likely find that the throttle won't work with the brake pressed to stop people doing it accidentally.

With ABS it doesn't really matter how hard you brake, the car will make sure you don't crash.

I did test that feature on the test drive, it does allow 'gas' to be applied under braking.

I managed to sort of heel-toe earlier, but I didn't have enough of my foot covering the brake for my liking due to the height difference. I'm tempted to fit something to raise the surface of the throttle pedal to allow for easier transitions.

These brakes really are ridiculous.

Incidentally, my non-enthusiast-driver wife thinks that they are 'better' than our old Mk3 and more like her Fabia (quite light, but not as over-assisted as this Mondeo).

Cars from 10-15 years ago were not typically difficult to lock the wheels, although I was a lad of about 20 at the time rather than a 70 year old woman.


ps. I tried an emergency stop yesterday, pressing the brakes about 1mm further than for a normal stop. Amusingly, the hazard lights came on for a few flashes.

-In the typical UK motorway scenario, that feature would be of no use whatsoever as the person previously driving 1 metre from the rear bumper would be sat somewhere between the bumper and the rear seat at the point of the hazards flashing.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 28th December 17:30

[Pork_n_Beem]

I have noticed this on nearly all the small hire cars i use when on hols. It is very difficult to brake smoothly as there is the inch of nothing and then way too much. I first noticed this when they launched the A4, nearly smacked my head on the steering wheel on the test drive. I read somewhere that accidents were happening because drivers were not using the full capability of the brakes in an emergency so i guess this is someway to address this issue.

I also used to run a C250 1997 year i think which had brake assist, this would deliver max brakes if it detected a movement off the throttle onto the brake in less than a certain time, after a couple of heart stopping moments and a strained wrist from the jolt it delivered i got rid of the car before someone rear ended me.

Love my BMW brakes, thankfully at least one manufacturer is leaving this area alone.

[RobM77]

Pork_n_Beem said:

Love my BMW brakes, thankfully at least one manufacturer is leaving this area alone.

They're trying though! My E90 has much more sensitive brakes than my E46 had, which in turn had more sensitive brakes than my E36. The E90 is right on the limit of what I find acceptable.

[Chicharito]

I've currently got a Mondeo rental on an 11 plate. (2.0TDCI Zetec Powershift)

Can't say I've noticed any issue with the brakes.

[davepoth]

The ones on my Rover 75 are wrong - there's air in the ABS thingy which has made them "spongy" - it's a well known fault.

Problem is, with a load of air in them, the brakes are just about right - the pedal doesn't do anything until it's level with the accelerator (lovely for heel and toe) and the extra squish has made it nice and progressive, and it'll still engage the ABS with plenty of pedal to spare.

I can't believe I'm debating getting it bled properly...

[WhoseGeneration]

We're all safer though?, thanks to ABS, EBA and EBD.
Not having ever used any, although now having them, I wouldn't know. Perhaps that's down to my driving style?

[MC Bodge]

davepoth said:

The ones on my Rover 75 are wrong - there's air in the ABS thingy which has made them "spongy" - it's a well known fault.

Problem is, with a load of air in them, the brakes are just about right - the pedal doesn't do anything until it's level with the accelerator (lovely for heel and toe) and the extra squish has made it nice and progressive, and it'll still engage the ABS with plenty of pedal to spare.

I can't believe I'm debating getting it bled properly...

Funnily enough, I was thinking earlier that my brakes would be better if there was a bit of air/sponginess in them too

[MC Bodge]

Chicharito said:

I've currently got a Mondeo rental on an 11 plate. (2.0TDCI Zetec Powershift)

Can't say I've noticed any issue with the brakes.

It all depends upon what you are expecting, I suppose.

My preference is for braking with some 'feel' that I can apply and remove smoothly in conjunction with applying and removing 'gas'/'throttle' in order to maintain the balance of the vehicle in as many situations as possible.

Somebody who fully separates all phases of their driving and doesn't drive in the way that I do probably wouldn't find it a problem.

[Chicharito]

Ahhh, you're one of those 'advanced driving' types - so us mortals couldn't possibly understand.

[WhoseGeneration]

Chicharito said:

Ahhh, you're one of those 'advanced driving' types - so us mortals couldn't possibly understand.

Nope, he's also a motorcylist, so appreciates the importance of being able to modulate braking on a vehicle.

[Chicharito]

WhoseGeneration said:

Nope, he's also a motorcylist, so appreciates the importance of being able to modulate braking on a vehicle.

So am I, but I appear not to have a pair of hams for feet, so can cope with both sensitive brake pedals and also those which need a big shove to do something. (I hop between cars at opposite ends of the spectrum regularly and haven't ever found it to be a problem).