Another "what would you have done?"....
Discussion
Yesterday morning in mid rush-hour, I found myself in a position where my chosen action was to break the law. It set me wondering whether there was another option available to me.
As briefly as I can....
Leaving the Cherwell Valley services on the M40 - heading south. The entry slip road to the motorway is a single lane. As I entered the slip road from the roundabout, I immediately came up behind a slow-moving BMW M6. I patiently waited behind him for a hundred yards or so, expecting him to accelerate up to motorway speeds. About halfway down the slip road, he still hadn't reached 40mph, so I flashed my headlights and indicated that he might wish to accelerate before we ran out of slip road. He didn't adjust his speed at all, which is when I made my decision to act.
I really didn't want to be joining the rush-hour M40 at 40mph, as I knew what this would do to the other traffic, so I checked around me, and undertook the BMW using the hard shoulder, then accelerated (briskly, due to the limited remainder of the slip road) up to motorway speeds and joined the motorway in the normal manner. I checked my mirros as I was joining, and I reckon the BMW had probably SLOWED before the end of the slip road and joined the motorway at little more than 30mph.
When I think of one of the theories behind the M5 crash last month, I shuddered to think of the carnage that might be caused by entering a (very) busy motorway at around half the speed limit. Bear in mind that yesterday morning, there was some patchy fog AND the temperature was still below zero.
I began to think what my other options might have been...
1) Drop right back, build a gap and then accelerate - this would have partly worked, but I would very quickly have caught up with the slow-moving BMW, cuasing me to brake sharply, further compounding the issue. Also, it could have further compromised the couple of cars that were behind me on the slip road.
2) er - can't think of any other choices....
So - I briefly used the hard shoulder to overtake him on the left, which I knew to be illegal, but my common sense told me was the best way of making a potentially unsafe situation more safe (for me, at least)
Any other suggestions?
Interestingly, after my day's work in Fareham, I came up behind the same BMW M6 on the A34 north - he was doing around 40-45mph (70mph limit) - quite possibly the slowest vehicle on the road - all the trucks were overtaking it, which of course was causing all the traffic to slow down. Either the car was very poorly, or he was on the mother of all economy drives (note - I did check for a space-saver spare wheel, just in case there was a really good reason for him to be travelling so slowly)
As briefly as I can....
Leaving the Cherwell Valley services on the M40 - heading south. The entry slip road to the motorway is a single lane. As I entered the slip road from the roundabout, I immediately came up behind a slow-moving BMW M6. I patiently waited behind him for a hundred yards or so, expecting him to accelerate up to motorway speeds. About halfway down the slip road, he still hadn't reached 40mph, so I flashed my headlights and indicated that he might wish to accelerate before we ran out of slip road. He didn't adjust his speed at all, which is when I made my decision to act.
I really didn't want to be joining the rush-hour M40 at 40mph, as I knew what this would do to the other traffic, so I checked around me, and undertook the BMW using the hard shoulder, then accelerated (briskly, due to the limited remainder of the slip road) up to motorway speeds and joined the motorway in the normal manner. I checked my mirros as I was joining, and I reckon the BMW had probably SLOWED before the end of the slip road and joined the motorway at little more than 30mph.
When I think of one of the theories behind the M5 crash last month, I shuddered to think of the carnage that might be caused by entering a (very) busy motorway at around half the speed limit. Bear in mind that yesterday morning, there was some patchy fog AND the temperature was still below zero.
I began to think what my other options might have been...
1) Drop right back, build a gap and then accelerate - this would have partly worked, but I would very quickly have caught up with the slow-moving BMW, cuasing me to brake sharply, further compounding the issue. Also, it could have further compromised the couple of cars that were behind me on the slip road.
2) er - can't think of any other choices....
So - I briefly used the hard shoulder to overtake him on the left, which I knew to be illegal, but my common sense told me was the best way of making a potentially unsafe situation more safe (for me, at least)
Any other suggestions?
Interestingly, after my day's work in Fareham, I came up behind the same BMW M6 on the A34 north - he was doing around 40-45mph (70mph limit) - quite possibly the slowest vehicle on the road - all the trucks were overtaking it, which of course was causing all the traffic to slow down. Either the car was very poorly, or he was on the mother of all economy drives (note - I did check for a space-saver spare wheel, just in case there was a really good reason for him to be travelling so slowly)
Nigel_O said:
Yesterday morning in mid rush-hour, I found myself in a position where my chosen action was to break the law. It set me wondering whether there was another option available to me.
As briefly as I can....
Leaving the Cherwell Valley services on the M40 - heading south. The entry slip road to the motorway is a single lane. As I entered the slip road from the roundabout, I immediately came up behind a slow-moving BMW M6. I patiently waited behind him for a hundred yards or so, expecting him to accelerate up to motorway speeds. About halfway down the slip road, he still hadn't reached 40mph, so I flashed my headlights and indicated that he might wish to accelerate before we ran out of slip road. He didn't adjust his speed at all, which is when I made my decision to act.
I really didn't want to be joining the rush-hour M40 at 40mph, as I knew what this would do to the other traffic, so I checked around me, and undertook the BMW using the hard shoulder, then accelerated (briskly, due to the limited remainder of the slip road) up to motorway speeds and joined the motorway in the normal manner. I checked my mirros as I was joining, and I reckon the BMW had probably SLOWED before the end of the slip road and joined the motorway at little more than 30mph.
When I think of one of the theories behind the M5 crash last month, I shuddered to think of the carnage that might be caused by entering a (very) busy motorway at around half the speed limit. Bear in mind that yesterday morning, there was some patchy fog AND the temperature was still below zero.
I began to think what my other options might have been...
1) Drop right back, build a gap and then accelerate - this would have partly worked, but I would very quickly have caught up with the slow-moving BMW, cuasing me to brake sharply, further compounding the issue. Also, it could have further compromised the couple of cars that were behind me on the slip road.
2) er - can't think of any other choices....
So - I briefly used the hard shoulder to overtake him on the left, which I knew to be illegal, but my common sense told me was the best way of making a potentially unsafe situation more safe (for me, at least)
Any other suggestions?
Interestingly, after my day's work in Fareham, I came up behind the same BMW M6 on the A34 north - he was doing around 40-45mph (70mph limit) - quite possibly the slowest vehicle on the road - all the trucks were overtaking it, which of course was causing all the traffic to slow down. Either the car was very poorly, or he was on the mother of all economy drives (note - I did check for a space-saver spare wheel, just in case there was a really good reason for him to be travelling so slowly)
Option 1.As briefly as I can....
Leaving the Cherwell Valley services on the M40 - heading south. The entry slip road to the motorway is a single lane. As I entered the slip road from the roundabout, I immediately came up behind a slow-moving BMW M6. I patiently waited behind him for a hundred yards or so, expecting him to accelerate up to motorway speeds. About halfway down the slip road, he still hadn't reached 40mph, so I flashed my headlights and indicated that he might wish to accelerate before we ran out of slip road. He didn't adjust his speed at all, which is when I made my decision to act.
I really didn't want to be joining the rush-hour M40 at 40mph, as I knew what this would do to the other traffic, so I checked around me, and undertook the BMW using the hard shoulder, then accelerated (briskly, due to the limited remainder of the slip road) up to motorway speeds and joined the motorway in the normal manner. I checked my mirros as I was joining, and I reckon the BMW had probably SLOWED before the end of the slip road and joined the motorway at little more than 30mph.
When I think of one of the theories behind the M5 crash last month, I shuddered to think of the carnage that might be caused by entering a (very) busy motorway at around half the speed limit. Bear in mind that yesterday morning, there was some patchy fog AND the temperature was still below zero.
I began to think what my other options might have been...
1) Drop right back, build a gap and then accelerate - this would have partly worked, but I would very quickly have caught up with the slow-moving BMW, cuasing me to brake sharply, further compounding the issue. Also, it could have further compromised the couple of cars that were behind me on the slip road.
2) er - can't think of any other choices....
So - I briefly used the hard shoulder to overtake him on the left, which I knew to be illegal, but my common sense told me was the best way of making a potentially unsafe situation more safe (for me, at least)
Any other suggestions?
Interestingly, after my day's work in Fareham, I came up behind the same BMW M6 on the A34 north - he was doing around 40-45mph (70mph limit) - quite possibly the slowest vehicle on the road - all the trucks were overtaking it, which of course was causing all the traffic to slow down. Either the car was very poorly, or he was on the mother of all economy drives (note - I did check for a space-saver spare wheel, just in case there was a really good reason for him to be travelling so slowly)
This should also enable traffic behind to join at a good speed.
I get this almost every morning, muppets joining a DC doing 30-40 into traffic doing 70-80.
I use option 1. Intensely annoying though.
I'd be very wary of undertaking them, as a couple of times I've seen people join at 30/40 straight into somebodies path (as if they expected them just to magically disappear out of their way?!) and violently swerve onto the hard shoulder to avoid a collision.
I use option 1. Intensely annoying though.
I'd be very wary of undertaking them, as a couple of times I've seen people join at 30/40 straight into somebodies path (as if they expected them just to magically disappear out of their way?!) and violently swerve onto the hard shoulder to avoid a collision.
I'd say your action caused them to slow further more, thus creating an even more dangerous situation. Also if you were visible from the m'way?? Wouldn't the oncoming traffic see the m6 and judge their actions from that, but all of a sudden (as you said you were running out of slip way) you pop out of nowhere causing then to panic/act rash? Bad move I say... Option 1 would have been your best bet stay well back IMO.
I'd say what you did was probably the worst thing you could have done.
Undertaking on the left on the hard shoulder on a sliproad is nuts.
You should have dropped right back to give yourself some space to accelerate
He would have been gone in 15 seconds.
I'd also suggest that he might have been slowing down based on some event you weren’t aware of – something in the road perhaps.
If he was slowing and had to veer left to avoid it then you'd have caused a crash.
Safely and legally overtaking to get past a troublesome driver is fine.
Performing a dangerous overtake (undertake) is just adding to the problem.
In my attempt to keep the story brief, I've probably not painted a clear enough picture, so here's some extra info...
Due to the slope and curve of the sliproad, I could see the road (and the hard shoulder) to be clear, all the way to the end of the sliproad
The traffic on the motorway wouldn't have noticed anything different than they would have done if it was a two-lane slip road (ie one vehicle about to enter the motorway at the correct speed and one about to try it at a much lower speed than is generally recommended)
I had already "wasted" about half of the length of the slip road, waiting for the BMW to increase its speed (which I still maintain was a fairly safe [albeit incorrect] assumption). It was only when it became apparent to me that the BMW wasn't going to speed up, that I was placed in a position where I needed to act in one way or another.
If I had slowed to say 20mph (thus risking obstructing the drivers behind) and waited until the BMW had reached the end of the slip road, and then accelerated, I reckon I would simply have caught up with the BMW at the same time as it tried to enter the motorway - I would have achieved nothing, other than using some more fuel. Additionally, I would have arrived at the end of the slip road, travelling at double the speed of the BMW, and thus be forced to hit the brakes - not how you should be entering a motorway.
Also, the other consequence of slowing right down would be that the drivers behind me on the slip road would then be forced to accelerate hard in order to join the motorway at safe speeds. I have over 400bhp, so it's not an issue for me, but Mr Rep in his Astra diesel might have really struggled to get up to speed in the short length of the remaining slip road.
If we're looking for the absolute safest response, I guess dropping right back would win - I considered this, but decided against it in light of the vehicles behind me and the compromise it would place on their situation.
The end result was that MY entry to the motorway was safe. The unsafe entry to the motorway was still executed by the BMW, but of course, by now, I was comfortably ahead of the hazard. If I had not overtaken the BMW, I too would have been compelled to enter the motorway at broadly the same time as he did, with the resultant melée as the trucks moved over to lane 2 and all the cars behind hit the brakes.
I guess the final question (which proves me to have taken an incorrect course of action) is "would I have done the same with an IAM instructor in the passenger seat?" - the answer is clearly 'No', so I accept that I didn't make the right decision.
However, I still maintain that as the hazard (BMW entering motorway at <40mph) was going to happen regardless of my actions (ie I had no way of MAKING the BMW increase speed) my action removed ME from the hazard.
Live & learn...
Due to the slope and curve of the sliproad, I could see the road (and the hard shoulder) to be clear, all the way to the end of the sliproad
The traffic on the motorway wouldn't have noticed anything different than they would have done if it was a two-lane slip road (ie one vehicle about to enter the motorway at the correct speed and one about to try it at a much lower speed than is generally recommended)
I had already "wasted" about half of the length of the slip road, waiting for the BMW to increase its speed (which I still maintain was a fairly safe [albeit incorrect] assumption). It was only when it became apparent to me that the BMW wasn't going to speed up, that I was placed in a position where I needed to act in one way or another.
If I had slowed to say 20mph (thus risking obstructing the drivers behind) and waited until the BMW had reached the end of the slip road, and then accelerated, I reckon I would simply have caught up with the BMW at the same time as it tried to enter the motorway - I would have achieved nothing, other than using some more fuel. Additionally, I would have arrived at the end of the slip road, travelling at double the speed of the BMW, and thus be forced to hit the brakes - not how you should be entering a motorway.
Also, the other consequence of slowing right down would be that the drivers behind me on the slip road would then be forced to accelerate hard in order to join the motorway at safe speeds. I have over 400bhp, so it's not an issue for me, but Mr Rep in his Astra diesel might have really struggled to get up to speed in the short length of the remaining slip road.
If we're looking for the absolute safest response, I guess dropping right back would win - I considered this, but decided against it in light of the vehicles behind me and the compromise it would place on their situation.
The end result was that MY entry to the motorway was safe. The unsafe entry to the motorway was still executed by the BMW, but of course, by now, I was comfortably ahead of the hazard. If I had not overtaken the BMW, I too would have been compelled to enter the motorway at broadly the same time as he did, with the resultant melée as the trucks moved over to lane 2 and all the cars behind hit the brakes.
I guess the final question (which proves me to have taken an incorrect course of action) is "would I have done the same with an IAM instructor in the passenger seat?" - the answer is clearly 'No', so I accept that I didn't make the right decision.
However, I still maintain that as the hazard (BMW entering motorway at <40mph) was going to happen regardless of my actions (ie I had no way of MAKING the BMW increase speed) my action removed ME from the hazard.
Live & learn...
To give a slightly clearer picture - here's some screen-grabs from Google Earth
For the first section of the sliproad, I had no option but to wait - replace blue hatch with black M6, and replace M40 traffic with roughly double the volume...
Now wait a while until the sliproad broadens - you can see that by now, the 'M6' has used up about half of the length of the sliproad and is still going way too slow (with no signs of speeding up)
It would have been about another 100 yards after this point that I made my decision to accelerate past the BMW by using the hard shoulder (rather than crossing the hatched area, which was never considered). Given the speed of the BMW and the power of my car, I reckon I wasn't on the hard shoulder for much more than a couple of seconds.
You'll also notice that the slip road is unusually long - this is because it's a gentle uphill incline and it's probably an attempt to give trucks some extra room to get up to speed. This is one of the reasons that dropping back and waiting wouldn't have worked. I reckon I could have STOPPED for 30 seconds and still caught the BMW before the end of the sliproad.
For the first section of the sliproad, I had no option but to wait - replace blue hatch with black M6, and replace M40 traffic with roughly double the volume...
Now wait a while until the sliproad broadens - you can see that by now, the 'M6' has used up about half of the length of the sliproad and is still going way too slow (with no signs of speeding up)
It would have been about another 100 yards after this point that I made my decision to accelerate past the BMW by using the hard shoulder (rather than crossing the hatched area, which was never considered). Given the speed of the BMW and the power of my car, I reckon I wasn't on the hard shoulder for much more than a couple of seconds.
You'll also notice that the slip road is unusually long - this is because it's a gentle uphill incline and it's probably an attempt to give trucks some extra room to get up to speed. This is one of the reasons that dropping back and waiting wouldn't have worked. I reckon I could have STOPPED for 30 seconds and still caught the BMW before the end of the sliproad.
Although not ethical/to the letter of the law or giving the potential to somehow cause a greater accident, I have to say OP that I would probably have done the same, as I would have taken the view that I would not have wanted to have been caught up in any accident that they wished to cause by driving dangerously slowly. IMO of course..
I have no doubt in my mind I would have held back.
The few seconds it takes to hang back and make the entire dangerous situation less dangerous and more considered is well worth it. You would have a real question about how you handled traffic arriving from behind with a different opinion and viewpoint, but whilst they might choose to make the situation more dangerous, I think your obligation is to make it safer.
The few seconds it takes to hang back and make the entire dangerous situation less dangerous and more considered is well worth it. You would have a real question about how you handled traffic arriving from behind with a different opinion and viewpoint, but whilst they might choose to make the situation more dangerous, I think your obligation is to make it safer.
I'm not saying I wouldn't have considered it (although I dont have 400bhp under the bonnet) just can't justify an undertake especially on a slip! You say you did it to ensure your own safety, but surely as you had the best view and awareness of the m6's lack of driver sense you could have prevented further collision had the m6 caused a crash by giving it lots of space, other than letting the unsuspecting motorist behind you find out for themself? (not sue if that makes sense I'm tired 
)
)I was once involved in a similar incident, where driver in front (maybe first time on motorway) actually braked near the end of the sliproad, when most people would be expecting them to accelerate to speed match. Problem compounded by another vehicle tailgating me & I could see in my mirror that he was looking to his right (probably going to overtake on the chevrons) I thought that he would probably run into me if I braked, so did the same as the OP & used the hard shoulder. Self preservation, it's the only way.
I'm pretty sure the hatched area (when it's bordered by solid lines) is even more of a no-go area than the hard shoulder (although I'd have struggled to claim the situation as an emergency to warrant my use of it)
Additionally, overtaking on the hatched area would have placed me in a MORE dangerous position - the BMW would have been far more likely to move to the right than the left.
There's a couple of angles coming out of this discussion (in addition to the fact that my decision was probably not the best - I gracefully accept this - it's why I asked the original question)
1) My action certainly made things safer for ME, although I accept that for a brief time, while using the hard shoulder, I was in more danger than I needed to be, but IMHO, it was a coldly-calculated move - the chances of the BMW suddenly moving left were very small (the chances of it doing ANYTHING suddenly, including moving forward, were pretty remote)
2) My actions didn't make the situation any safer for any of the other road users.
TBH, its bad enough keeping myself safe, without having to look after everyone else, but I'm happy to accept that I have a duty to TRY to keep the road safe for everyone. I guess if it's possible to diffuse a situation by "managing" other road users through my own actions, I should try to help.
So - what would be the IAM's view? Ultimately, I was faced with a potentially dangerous situation, and I decided that because the situation looked unlikely to change (ie the BMW driver had no intention of joining the motorway at a decent speed), my action was simply to distance myself from the potential problem, with a preference being to be ahead of the problem, rather than behind it.
What it boils down to is that there are just too many drivers who aren't thinking far enough ahead (or behind, in this instance) and as soon as several of them converge on the same piece of tarmac, all hell breaks loose.
I mentioned something similar in an earlier post, but I have to concede that if there had been a Police car behind me, I wouldn't have done it, and it's here that I have to concede that I took the wrong course of action. However, I'd also like to think that if there HAD been a cop car behind me, he'd have pulled the BMW for lecture and a "due care and attention" ticket.
There's one more issue that bothers me - this was a bleedin' M6. Even on it's 'economy' setting, this car is capable of reaching double the motorway speed limit by the end of the slip road. I should imagine with its full-fat 500bhp, it could probably hit its 155mph limiter before the end of this particular sliproad - what a waste of a wonderful engine....
Additionally, overtaking on the hatched area would have placed me in a MORE dangerous position - the BMW would have been far more likely to move to the right than the left.
There's a couple of angles coming out of this discussion (in addition to the fact that my decision was probably not the best - I gracefully accept this - it's why I asked the original question)
1) My action certainly made things safer for ME, although I accept that for a brief time, while using the hard shoulder, I was in more danger than I needed to be, but IMHO, it was a coldly-calculated move - the chances of the BMW suddenly moving left were very small (the chances of it doing ANYTHING suddenly, including moving forward, were pretty remote)
2) My actions didn't make the situation any safer for any of the other road users.
TBH, its bad enough keeping myself safe, without having to look after everyone else, but I'm happy to accept that I have a duty to TRY to keep the road safe for everyone. I guess if it's possible to diffuse a situation by "managing" other road users through my own actions, I should try to help.
So - what would be the IAM's view? Ultimately, I was faced with a potentially dangerous situation, and I decided that because the situation looked unlikely to change (ie the BMW driver had no intention of joining the motorway at a decent speed), my action was simply to distance myself from the potential problem, with a preference being to be ahead of the problem, rather than behind it.
What it boils down to is that there are just too many drivers who aren't thinking far enough ahead (or behind, in this instance) and as soon as several of them converge on the same piece of tarmac, all hell breaks loose.
I mentioned something similar in an earlier post, but I have to concede that if there had been a Police car behind me, I wouldn't have done it, and it's here that I have to concede that I took the wrong course of action. However, I'd also like to think that if there HAD been a cop car behind me, he'd have pulled the BMW for lecture and a "due care and attention" ticket.
There's one more issue that bothers me - this was a bleedin' M6. Even on it's 'economy' setting, this car is capable of reaching double the motorway speed limit by the end of the slip road. I should imagine with its full-fat 500bhp, it could probably hit its 155mph limiter before the end of this particular sliproad - what a waste of a wonderful engine....
Edited by Nigel_O on Thursday 24th November 21:24
Incidentally, while we're on about the M40 and the illegal use of the hard shoulder, anyone that travels this road regularly will know that there's a lot of southbound traffic that turns off at Gaydon. Shortly after the exit slip, there's a junction, which means that the traffic backs up quite quickly. The vast majority of drivers pull onto the hard shoulder to queue, rather than doing it in lane 1. A similar situation often happens at the Leamington exit.
There's no emergency, so technically therefore, they are all breaking the law, but doing so makes everyone safer, as well as helping maintain traffic flow.
Were my actions massively different to theirs? (albeit in reverse - I used the hard shoulder briefly while entering the motorway in order to stay safe)
There's no emergency, so technically therefore, they are all breaking the law, but doing so makes everyone safer, as well as helping maintain traffic flow.
Were my actions massively different to theirs? (albeit in reverse - I used the hard shoulder briefly while entering the motorway in order to stay safe)
In answer to the original question, I wouldn't have used the hard shoulder. It's often got crud all over it and the last thing I'd want to do is risk an incident on it. Additionally if the M6 driver is that slow, I would be thinking drunk/stoned/mechanical issue, and wouldn't want to put my car where they weren't expecting it to be. I would assume they don't use their mirrors and have no awareness, and wouldn't want them in the side of my car.
You don't have to get to 70mph to join a motorway safely (I tow and join at 60 or below, as do lorries) - so you only needed to increase speed a bit.
I think (although you never know until you're in the situation with little time to think) I would have dropped back as far as I could to give myself time and space, identified a gap in the motorway traffic (you have good visiibliity all the way down the slip from the google pics), and slotted myself in. If you have a powerful car then you could keep the speed low until fairly late in the day.
However you obviously need to be thinking that the M6 might suddenly slow further or even stop, so plan an escape route (possibly the shoulder in that scenario, or an illegal cross on the hatchings, or a stop yourself).
You don't have to get to 70mph to join a motorway safely (I tow and join at 60 or below, as do lorries) - so you only needed to increase speed a bit.
I think (although you never know until you're in the situation with little time to think) I would have dropped back as far as I could to give myself time and space, identified a gap in the motorway traffic (you have good visiibliity all the way down the slip from the google pics), and slotted myself in. If you have a powerful car then you could keep the speed low until fairly late in the day.
However you obviously need to be thinking that the M6 might suddenly slow further or even stop, so plan an escape route (possibly the shoulder in that scenario, or an illegal cross on the hatchings, or a stop yourself).
Drop back - more to give yourself options rather than speed. It really isn't necessary to join at 70 mph (although I usually do) after all lorries prob join at around 40mph quite safely. So dropping back would be about allowing you to choose the gap/moment of entry rather than being stuck behind the BMW and effectively being forced to join when he did - or even worse having to slow still further. More options usually mean more 'getouts'/safety no?
In fact, by timing that undertake as late as you say having popped out in front of the BM your options and window of oportunity must have been very small - or are you saying that as you approached him/undertook him you were also gauging where to join. In which case you concentration wasn't fully on what was, potentially, a dangerous manouver.
Not having a go - just my own thought.
In fact, by timing that undertake as late as you say having popped out in front of the BM your options and window of oportunity must have been very small - or are you saying that as you approached him/undertook him you were also gauging where to join. In which case you concentration wasn't fully on what was, potentially, a dangerous manouver.
Not having a go - just my own thought.
Edited by Pugsey on Friday 25th November 14:20
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff