Automatic gearboxes...
Discussion
I suspect I'll get some stick for asking this question...
If an awful lot of advanced driving tries to minimise the amount of time you take your hands off the wheel, does that make automatic transmission cars safer?
Automatics have come a long way in the last 5 years.
And... I'll await your answers.
(From the owner of a manual, if it makes a difference!)
If an awful lot of advanced driving tries to minimise the amount of time you take your hands off the wheel, does that make automatic transmission cars safer?
Automatics have come a long way in the last 5 years.
And... I'll await your answers.
(From the owner of a manual, if it makes a difference!)
blearyeyedboy said:
I suspect I'll get some stick for asking this question...
If an awful lot of advanced driving tries to minimise the amount of time you take your hands off the wheel, does that make automatic transmission cars safer?
Automatics have come a long way in the last 5 years.
And... I'll await your answers.
(From the owner of a manual, if it makes a difference!)
Nope.....If an awful lot of advanced driving tries to minimise the amount of time you take your hands off the wheel, does that make automatic transmission cars safer?
Automatics have come a long way in the last 5 years.
And... I'll await your answers.
(From the owner of a manual, if it makes a difference!)
If Driving Auto, 99% of the time the car will be in Tiptronic Mode, so changes will be made as per a manual car.
In a manual car, hand is probably off the steering wheel for c2 seconds for a gear change, then back on the wheel as the clutch comes up.
Noticing that Nuster is a RoSPA man, I thought to add a comment by an Examiner after a drive in my X Type...I use the auto box probably more than average as I enjoy getting the best out of the 2.5 engine...this Rospa Examiner is a serving Met Trafpol Instructor I believe...
OVERALL COMMENTS
The candidate is an Observer with a local group and is a very keen driver to perfect his own driving skills. This was a very good professional drive over a very 'fussy' test route that needs total concentration for its entire route. The candidate has a superb knowledge and understanding of his automatic gearbox and gave one of the best demonstration drives using the auto box I have ever had.
An excellent, high standard drive.
RESULT: GOLD
I post this to give you the thoughts of a RoSPA Examiner on his attitude to the auto box...I also understood at the time that Hendon was giving more attention to auto boxes in their BMWs for Trafpol training...might be billhooks?
BOF
OVERALL COMMENTS
The candidate is an Observer with a local group and is a very keen driver to perfect his own driving skills. This was a very good professional drive over a very 'fussy' test route that needs total concentration for its entire route. The candidate has a superb knowledge and understanding of his automatic gearbox and gave one of the best demonstration drives using the auto box I have ever had.
An excellent, high standard drive.
RESULT: GOLD
I post this to give you the thoughts of a RoSPA Examiner on his attitude to the auto box...I also understood at the time that Hendon was giving more attention to auto boxes in their BMWs for Trafpol training...might be billhooks?
BOF
There are automatics, and there are automatics !
In my family at present (we all have full manual licences), we have one ZF tiptronic torque converter automatic, and two centrifugal clutch tiptronic automatics ..... a 5 series BMW and two smart for two city coupes.
When I first started driving BMW autos's I experienced difficulty in driving to the same standard and smoothness I could with a manual, so much so, I recieved a days training from my IAM group auto chappie, and that helped a lot, so don't do yourself down for asking or experiencing any difficulty.
Different makes of auto gearbox also require different techniques with even the most mundane of things, like being stationary at traffic lights, in traffic jams etc ....... and the car being able to roll back on tickover, and the car not being able to roll back on tickover but will always want to move forward on tickover.
I'm not even sure how you accurately define what is, and what isn't an auto these days, if you were rich and took your test in a BMW M5, which is a manual with electronic clutch ........ what is that classed as ...... a semi automatic ?
And whilst wishing to maintain two hands on the wheel is admirable, don't get hung up on it, we've all been managing for years.
In my family at present (we all have full manual licences), we have one ZF tiptronic torque converter automatic, and two centrifugal clutch tiptronic automatics ..... a 5 series BMW and two smart for two city coupes.
When I first started driving BMW autos's I experienced difficulty in driving to the same standard and smoothness I could with a manual, so much so, I recieved a days training from my IAM group auto chappie, and that helped a lot, so don't do yourself down for asking or experiencing any difficulty.
Different makes of auto gearbox also require different techniques with even the most mundane of things, like being stationary at traffic lights, in traffic jams etc ....... and the car being able to roll back on tickover, and the car not being able to roll back on tickover but will always want to move forward on tickover.
I'm not even sure how you accurately define what is, and what isn't an auto these days, if you were rich and took your test in a BMW M5, which is a manual with electronic clutch ........ what is that classed as ...... a semi automatic ?
And whilst wishing to maintain two hands on the wheel is admirable, don't get hung up on it, we've all been managing for years.
BOF said:
Noticing that Nuster is a RoSPA man, I thought to add a comment by an Examiner after a drive in my X Type...I use the auto box probably more than average as I enjoy getting the best out of the 2.5 engine...this Rospa Examiner is a serving Met Trafpol Instructor I believe...
OVERALL COMMENTS
The candidate is an Observer with a local group and is a very keen driver to perfect his own driving skills. This was a very good professional drive over a very 'fussy' test route that needs total concentration for its entire route. The candidate has a superb knowledge and understanding of his automatic gearbox and gave one of the best demonstration drives using the auto box I have ever had.
An excellent, high standard drive.
RESULT: GOLD
I post this to give you the thoughts of a RoSPA Examiner on his attitude to the auto box...I also understood at the time that Hendon was giving more attention to auto boxes in their BMWs for Trafpol training...might be billhooks?
BOF
Does that have the usual Jaguar "J" gate box?OVERALL COMMENTS
The candidate is an Observer with a local group and is a very keen driver to perfect his own driving skills. This was a very good professional drive over a very 'fussy' test route that needs total concentration for its entire route. The candidate has a superb knowledge and understanding of his automatic gearbox and gave one of the best demonstration drives using the auto box I have ever had.
An excellent, high standard drive.
RESULT: GOLD
I post this to give you the thoughts of a RoSPA Examiner on his attitude to the auto box...I also understood at the time that Hendon was giving more attention to auto boxes in their BMWs for Trafpol training...might be billhooks?
BOF
Nigel Worc's said:
There are automatics, and there are automatics !
Quite! They're a varied breed...Nigel Worc's said:
And whilst wishing to maintain two hands on the wheel is admirable, don't get hung up on it, we've all been managing for years.
Well, I drive a manual and I'm pretty happy with it. 
I just wondered while been driven in a friend's auto and noticed the lack of movement of hands off the wheel at all.. and that got me wondering.So no one accuses me of sitting on the fence, I'm hoping autos aren't safer as I quite like my manual...
nuster100 said:
Does that have the usual Jaguar "J" gate box?
Yes,I discussed with Jag Coventry when I bought the car new if the use of the box would be damaged by my preferences - stay in drive at lights etc... - I was assured it was OK...I had driven Citroen and Chevy autos since 1976.
I subsequently spent a half day with John Lyon HPC (to see if he would take me on for a full day) when John drove the Jag on my full day he selected 3 hold on the first winter morning we drove on ice...later at Millbrook we made extensive use of the J gate and I learned a bit more from him.
I guess it is different strokes for different folks - I love the control of using the box instead of the footbrake...also makes me 'lift up thine eyes' about forward observation...
BOF
Yes, driving an automatic is safer. You simply have a larger proportion of your concentration available for dealing with traffic and other aspects of driving. Also, the car is always ready to go, to take any available gap in traffic. Modern automatics give you total control if you want it, combined with a better combination of performance and economy than manuals, and in many cases you can exercise the control without taking your hands off the wheel. How long will manuals be around? How can you justify choosing a manual?
I like driving manuals.
I like driving manuals.
waremark said:
Yes, driving an automatic is safer. You simply have a larger proportion of your concentration available for dealing with traffic and other aspects of driving. Also, the car is always ready to go, to take any available gap in traffic. Modern automatics give you total control if you want it, combined with a better combination of performance and economy than manuals, and in many cases you can exercise the control without taking your hands off the wheel. How long will manuals be around? How can you justify choosing a manual?
I like driving manuals.
My sentiments precisely... and I think you've just phrased my original question better than I did. I like driving manuals.
What many drivers don't do is to experiment/find out what their autos are capable of in regards to any different options available - most stick it in D and that's it
Example - one car had D and a B button but the driver had no idea of what the B did
Quick look in handbook and it turns out it is a gearbox Brake hold which assists when going downhill so the car does not 'run away'
After watching the driver struggle to keep the car at 30 in D for a while I suggested using the B button - BINGO - we now have accelerator control in the 30s
Many autos will change down through the gears when the accelerator is released - not very fuel efficient - but others will hold the current gear until the accelerator is touched again when it will select the apropriate gear for the speed
how many cars have the second option at the moment I do not know but a lot of trucks now have it and are saving the companies thousands in fuel
What many find with the second option is the very slight delay so what the driver does is to tap the accelerator just prior to needing it
Example - one car had D and a B button but the driver had no idea of what the B did
Quick look in handbook and it turns out it is a gearbox Brake hold which assists when going downhill so the car does not 'run away'
After watching the driver struggle to keep the car at 30 in D for a while I suggested using the B button - BINGO - we now have accelerator control in the 30s
Many autos will change down through the gears when the accelerator is released - not very fuel efficient - but others will hold the current gear until the accelerator is touched again when it will select the apropriate gear for the speed
how many cars have the second option at the moment I do not know but a lot of trucks now have it and are saving the companies thousands in fuel
What many find with the second option is the very slight delay so what the driver does is to tap the accelerator just prior to needing it
waremark said:
Yes, driving an automatic is safer. You simply have a larger proportion of your concentration available for dealing with traffic and other aspects of driving. Also, the car is always ready to go, to take any available gap in traffic. Modern automatics give you total control if you want it, combined with a better combination of performance and economy than manuals, and in many cases you can exercise the control without taking your hands off the wheel. How long will manuals be around? How can you justify choosing a manual?
I like driving manuals.
I think there is a place for both, and they both require slightly different styles.I like driving manuals.
One of the observers of my group had a Jag XK8 and he used to use the J gate fully.
My Legnum VR4 had a tiptronic gearbox and I did enjoy the kick down and tiptronic when I wanted it (90% of the time)
That being said, I don't think anything is quite as satisfying as blipping down the box on a V6 or bigger, before a nice section of twisties and then nailing the corners with the perfect line.
waremark said:
a better combination of performance and economy than manuals,
Not so sure about that.... they certainly perform better in the mpg tests as the rules allow them to run in which ever gear they like for a given speed, whereas manuals have to use set gears (so the manual car will be in, say, 3rd at 30mph because that's what the test schedule demands; the auto will probably be in top...). I'd really wonder about autos being faster than manuals, too. Automated manuals may be, but proper torque-converter-fluid-filled-mystery-black-magic-boxes generally aren't.R0G said:
What many drivers don't do is to experiment/find out what their autos are capable of in regards to any different options available - most stick it in D and that's it
My OH's '95 Micra has a "Ds" setting on the CVT gearbox for holding it at higher revs when descending, but I'll only use it at <20mph or the poor little engine is screaming.Doesn't take a lot of braking effort to keep an 850kg car in check though.
ETA: in response to economy, I'd love to drive a manual to see if it does even better than the 50mpg the auto achieves.
nuster100 said:
Nope.....
If Driving Auto, 99% of the time the car will be in Tiptronic Mode, so changes will be made as per a manual car.
In a manual car, hand is probably off the steering wheel for c2 seconds for a gear change, then back on the wheel as the clutch comes up.
Not all automatics have 'tiptronic mode' , mine have no electronics , just P R N D S L .If Driving Auto, 99% of the time the car will be in Tiptronic Mode, so changes will be made as per a manual car.
In a manual car, hand is probably off the steering wheel for c2 seconds for a gear change, then back on the wheel as the clutch comes up.
defblade said:
Not so sure about that.... they certainly perform better in the mpg tests as the rules allow them to run in which ever gear they like for a given speed, whereas manuals have to use set gears (so the manual car will be in, say, 3rd at 30mph because that's what the test schedule demands; the auto will probably be in top...). I'd really wonder about autos being faster than manuals, too. Automated manuals may be, but proper torque-converter-fluid-filled-mystery-black-magic-boxes generally aren't.
As Setright once eloquently put it ; a case of 'some of the power , all of the time' being better than 'all of the power , some of the time' . The given example being the Mercedes 230SL where the automatic had better mid range acceleration than the manual , at speeds important for making progress on typical fast road journeys .waremark said:
Yes, driving an automatic is safer. You simply have a larger proportion of your concentration available for dealing with traffic and other aspects of driving. Also, the car is always ready to go, to take any available gap in traffic. Modern automatics give you total control if you want it, combined with a better combination of performance and economy than manuals, and in many cases you can exercise the control without taking your hands off the wheel. How long will manuals be around? How can you justify choosing a manual?
I like driving manuals.
Agreed - plus the obvious benefit : you don't have to struggle with more pedals than you have feet for .I like driving manuals.
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