I must be a dinosaur :(
Discussion
I had the pleasure of some RoSPA driving instruction last week, and all this new fangled malarky about not using gears when slowing down has really got me going.
It seems the way I was taught to drive is no longer correct - although the instructor was not very explicit in the rationale behind this.
If i'm doing something wrong - which it seems I am - then a little more than "it wears out the gearbox" would be appreciated!!!
It seems the way I was taught to drive is no longer correct - although the instructor was not very explicit in the rationale behind this.
If i'm doing something wrong - which it seems I am - then a little more than "it wears out the gearbox" would be appreciated!!!
In my book advanced driving is about why as much as what, so yes the observer should be talking through all the reasons. I learnt to drive in a Triumph Herald with drums all round that would boil the brake fluid if you touched the brake peddle more than twice an hour. So the gearbox was as essential as the anchor and chain.
Vented discs all round, high quality brake fluid, ABS and other gismos meen the best tool for slowing the car is the midle peddle.
That is one of several reasons a good observer should give.
On your next outing try heal and toe and see them become appoplectic at your ability too overlap.
Stick with it.
Vented discs all round, high quality brake fluid, ABS and other gismos meen the best tool for slowing the car is the midle peddle.
That is one of several reasons a good observer should give.
On your next outing try heal and toe and see them become appoplectic at your ability too overlap.
Stick with it.
It's not too recent.
I passed my test seven years ago, and even then the instructor told me to leave it in the gear I was prior to the lights changing, and stick it in neutral just before it stalls.
Not really sure why, though. Although I suppose for learners there's the argument that there's a lot less to distract them, and potentially the elimination of any risk of looking down at the gear stick while approaching a stationary car. That wouldn't explain its prevalence in higher level teaching, though.
I passed my test seven years ago, and even then the instructor told me to leave it in the gear I was prior to the lights changing, and stick it in neutral just before it stalls.
Not really sure why, though. Although I suppose for learners there's the argument that there's a lot less to distract them, and potentially the elimination of any risk of looking down at the gear stick while approaching a stationary car. That wouldn't explain its prevalence in higher level teaching, though.
That has been the ADI method for at least 15 years.
For slowing a car down the brakes work best.
I was always taught to use engine braking when I could, if no one was behind me.
I assume the OP is talking about slowing the car down by dragging the speed off with the clutch rather than rev matching into a lower gear and then using engine braking.
For slowing a car down the brakes work best.
I was always taught to use engine braking when I could, if no one was behind me.
I assume the OP is talking about slowing the car down by dragging the speed off with the clutch rather than rev matching into a lower gear and then using engine braking.
It is not the only way to drive well, nor is it the most important thing you will learn from Rospa. However, it is a way that everyone can learn to drive well, and both IAM and Rospa insist on it. Let me list some benefits of leaving the car in whatever gear it happens to be in until you have finished slowing:
1. You have both hands on the steering wheel for maximum control for as long as possible, and until the car is going slowly.
2. You get the most efficient slowing force, with the brakes being applied to all four wheels in appropriate proportions.
3. By the time you change gear, you have finished braking, and your right foot is available to go back onto the accelerator, to raise the revs to the correct level to match the road speed in the new gear. Letting the clutch out without your right foot on the accelerator causes some wear, some loss of smoothness, and is very 'inelegant'.
4. Only dealing with one thing at once, you tend to do it better.
5. You do less; it is more relaxed.
By the way, I am disappointed if you asked your tutor for reasons and he failed to give you all of these; if he continues to be unable to explain the reasons for things he recommends you might consider asking for a change of tutor. Alternatively, get what you can from him and ask for the explanations here!
1. You have both hands on the steering wheel for maximum control for as long as possible, and until the car is going slowly.
2. You get the most efficient slowing force, with the brakes being applied to all four wheels in appropriate proportions.
3. By the time you change gear, you have finished braking, and your right foot is available to go back onto the accelerator, to raise the revs to the correct level to match the road speed in the new gear. Letting the clutch out without your right foot on the accelerator causes some wear, some loss of smoothness, and is very 'inelegant'.
4. Only dealing with one thing at once, you tend to do it better.
5. You do less; it is more relaxed.
By the way, I am disappointed if you asked your tutor for reasons and he failed to give you all of these; if he continues to be unable to explain the reasons for things he recommends you might consider asking for a change of tutor. Alternatively, get what you can from him and ask for the explanations here!
I find my car gets a bit..."lurchy" if I'm too low in the rev range, (well before stalling point before it is suggested!). It's hard to explain, its not severe movement just that you know it is just not...happy and it makes it known.
I can't fathom it at all the more I think about it. To me, as a layperson, 'driving' in far too high a gear for your speed is not much better than coasting.
Perhaps it is because the majority of my driving is done in 6th (the car gets royally unhappy at anything resembling 'moderately slow' speeds in 6th) that my typical drive feels much more comfortable using the gears a bit more.
I can't fathom it at all the more I think about it. To me, as a layperson, 'driving' in far too high a gear for your speed is not much better than coasting.
Perhaps it is because the majority of my driving is done in 6th (the car gets royally unhappy at anything resembling 'moderately slow' speeds in 6th) that my typical drive feels much more comfortable using the gears a bit more.
roachcoach said:
I find my car gets a bit..."lurchy" if I'm too low in the rev range,
I can't fathom it at all the more I think about it. To me, as a layperson, 'driving' in far too high a gear for your speed is not much better than coasting.
Perhaps it is because the majority of my driving is done in 6th (the car gets royally unhappy at anything resembling 'moderately slow' speeds in 6th) that my typical drive feels much more comfortable using the gears a bit more.
You could try dropping from 6th to 5th as soon as you see and assess the hazard, but still maintaining speed up to the braking point; then use the brakes to slow for the hazard. This will give you a more flexible gear as you bring the car to a stop and avoid that "lurchy" sensation.I can't fathom it at all the more I think about it. To me, as a layperson, 'driving' in far too high a gear for your speed is not much better than coasting.
Perhaps it is because the majority of my driving is done in 6th (the car gets royally unhappy at anything resembling 'moderately slow' speeds in 6th) that my typical drive feels much more comfortable using the gears a bit more.
Your observer may object to this technique because he may think that you are using the change down to slow the car. But, as long as you match engine speed and road speed when you engage 5th gear, and stay on the accelerator up to the braking point, you will not be "using the gears to slow". Explain to him that you are using the information obtained from your observation to better plan the approach to the hazard.
If he does object, be patient with him, as he will simply never before have considered this approach to dealing with the problem. You may get a "knee jerk" reaction that you mustn't do as I am suggesting but, ask him to explain, using reasoned argument, why he considers it to be unacceptable.
Hope this helps.
The original way you were taught to drive by using the gears to slow down was probably correct for the type of vehicle braking systems that were prevelant at that time - namely drum brakes
With the introduction and now common system of disc brakes the way a vehicle is slowed down can now be done purely by the brakes alone in normal driving conditions even if that vehicle is a fully laden 44 tonne artic
If a driver wishes to stay set in their old ways and it is still safe then there is unlikely to be a problem but the advanced way is a safer way to do it and, as pointed out in other posts, has other benefits too
OH, and dipping the clutch just enough to prevent the vehicle stalling is not coasting
With the introduction and now common system of disc brakes the way a vehicle is slowed down can now be done purely by the brakes alone in normal driving conditions even if that vehicle is a fully laden 44 tonne artic
If a driver wishes to stay set in their old ways and it is still safe then there is unlikely to be a problem but the advanced way is a safer way to do it and, as pointed out in other posts, has other benefits too
OH, and dipping the clutch just enough to prevent the vehicle stalling is not coasting
roachcoach said:
I find my car gets a bit..."lurchy" if I'm too low in the rev range, (well before stalling point before it is suggested!). It's hard to explain, its not severe movement just that you know it is just not...happy and it makes it known.
I can't fathom it at all the more I think about it. To me, as a layperson, 'driving' in far too high a gear for your speed is not much better than coasting.
Perhaps it is because the majority of my driving is done in 6th (the car gets royally unhappy at anything resembling 'moderately slow' speeds in 6th) that my typical drive feels much more comfortable using the gears a bit more.
Test it specifically. Slow down in 6th, on the brakes in a positive way as you would be approaching a junction or roundabout, and notice at what speed the car gets 'lurchy'. Carry out the test well away from a junction or hazard, obviously with noone behind you; don't be in too much of a hurry to press the clutch. When you know at what speed the car will get 'lurchy', try it again, but press the clutch just before it gets 'lurchy'. This time, notice how much further you travel before you come to a smooth stop. Now think about whether travelling that distance with the clutch down each time you approach a hazard would actually present any sort of problem. I suggest that it wouldn't.I can't fathom it at all the more I think about it. To me, as a layperson, 'driving' in far too high a gear for your speed is not much better than coasting.
Perhaps it is because the majority of my driving is done in 6th (the car gets royally unhappy at anything resembling 'moderately slow' speeds in 6th) that my typical drive feels much more comfortable using the gears a bit more.
As someone else said, braking with the clutch down may or may not be called coasting, but it isn't a problem.
Do try it and report back. I have driven very many cars, and never found one in which I felt uncomfortable braking in whatever gear I happened to be in, until I had the correct speed for the upcoming hazard.
(By the way, several of us replying to you are ourselves IAM and/or Rospa Observers/Tutors).
waremark said:
Do try it and report back. I have driven very many cars, and never found one in which I felt uncomfortable braking in whatever gear I happened to be in, until I had the correct speed for the upcoming hazard.
I'm trying to pick up on what the OPs being asked to do. Lets say the hazard is a roundabout where I'll have to stop due to traffic already on it. Braking from 70 in 6th, the car with start to get "lurchy" about 30-35mph (previously discovered due to tiredness and forgetting to change gear until the car made itself known!). So I'd be supposed to put the clutch down and "coast" to a stop on the brakes, when I can then engage neutral? I don't like to idea of spending that long holding the clutch down myself.Or have I missed something about what the method is?
You'll probably find that bikers are more prone to going down through the gears in a car, as it's not an option to do it any other way on a bike
I've always used engine braking, especially when I'm not in a hurry. Some decent anticipation and observation often results in me being off the throttle and down a gear several seconds before cars in front are on the brakes.
As far as I'm concerned, engine braking is "free", especially in a fuel-injected car, where the injectors shut down when the throttle is closed. Braking with the brakes uses discs and pads, which on my car are £400 and thus worthy of preserving.
Additionally, isn't it a good idea to always be in an appropriate gear? Coming up to a set of traffic lights in 6th gear is not appropriate, as you would have to change gear if the lights change before you come to a standstill. If you've dropped down through the 'box, you'll always be in the right gear to accelerate away, thus removing one task when the lights change.
Finally, there MUST be an element of unnecessary coasting if you approach a stop in a high gear, as the clutch would have to be dipped earlier than if you were in a lower gear.
When I did my IAM test, the examiner mentioned my use of engine braking, but then commented positively that I'd always selected the correct gear in advance of the junction/hazard/bend.
I guess they teach the method that presents the least distraction or potential for mistakes.
EDIT - actually - just thought of one (obvious) reason for using the brakes...
When on the motorway, through long-distance observation, I often find that I don't actually need to brake - a lift of the throttle is sufficient. However, this gives no visual clue to a driver immediately behind me, who may react late, hit the brakes harder than required and end up causing a concertina effect, resulting in traffic half a mile back down the motorway coming to a standstill for apparently no reason - we've all been infuriated by that before...
I've always used engine braking, especially when I'm not in a hurry. Some decent anticipation and observation often results in me being off the throttle and down a gear several seconds before cars in front are on the brakes.
As far as I'm concerned, engine braking is "free", especially in a fuel-injected car, where the injectors shut down when the throttle is closed. Braking with the brakes uses discs and pads, which on my car are £400 and thus worthy of preserving.
Additionally, isn't it a good idea to always be in an appropriate gear? Coming up to a set of traffic lights in 6th gear is not appropriate, as you would have to change gear if the lights change before you come to a standstill. If you've dropped down through the 'box, you'll always be in the right gear to accelerate away, thus removing one task when the lights change.
Finally, there MUST be an element of unnecessary coasting if you approach a stop in a high gear, as the clutch would have to be dipped earlier than if you were in a lower gear.
When I did my IAM test, the examiner mentioned my use of engine braking, but then commented positively that I'd always selected the correct gear in advance of the junction/hazard/bend.
I guess they teach the method that presents the least distraction or potential for mistakes.
EDIT - actually - just thought of one (obvious) reason for using the brakes...
When on the motorway, through long-distance observation, I often find that I don't actually need to brake - a lift of the throttle is sufficient. However, this gives no visual clue to a driver immediately behind me, who may react late, hit the brakes harder than required and end up causing a concertina effect, resulting in traffic half a mile back down the motorway coming to a standstill for apparently no reason - we've all been infuriated by that before...
Munter said:
I'm trying to pick up on what the OPs being asked to do. Lets say the hazard is a roundabout where I'll have to stop due to traffic already on it. Braking from 70 in 6th, the car with start to get "lurchy" about 30-35mph (previously discovered due to tiredness and forgetting to change gear until the car made itself known!). So I'd be supposed to put the clutch down and "coast" to a stop on the brakes, when I can then engage neutral? I don't like to idea of spending that long holding the clutch down myself.
Or have I missed something about what the method is?
Dipping the clutch just enough to prevent lurchiness (is that a word?) is what it is designed forOr have I missed something about what the method is?
The clutch is designed to be used to vary the speed when reversing etc
Nigel_O said:
As far as I'm concerned, engine braking is "free", especially in a fuel-injected car, where the injectors shut down when the throttle is closed. Braking with the brakes uses discs and pads, which on my car are £400 and thus worthy of preserving.
I would venture to say that the amount of your £400 used up to produce the same deceleration as engine braking is completely negligible. Or are you going through the gears without rev-matching to get the requisite deceleration?Bert
Nigel_O said:
Additionally, isn't it a good idea to always be in an appropriate gear? Coming up to a set of traffic lights in 6th gear is not appropriate, as you would have to change gear if the lights change before you come to a standstill. If you've dropped down through the 'box, you'll always be in the right gear to accelerate away, thus removing one task when the lights change.
You are RobM77 AICMFP.(Sorry, this has been well thrashed out in other threads!
)Nigel_O said:
EDIT - actually - just thought of one (obvious) reason for using the brakes...
When on the motorway, through long-distance observation, I often find that I don't actually need to brake - a lift of the throttle is sufficient. However, this gives no visual clue to a driver immediately behind me, who may react late, hit the brakes harder than required and end up causing a concertina effect, resulting in traffic half a mile back down the motorway coming to a standstill for apparently no reason - we've all been infuriated by that before...
But...... if you show brake lights (unnecessarily, as simple throttle adjustment would suffice), aren't you precipitating the brake light show and consequent motorway standstill? If the chap behind needs waking up, OK, but if he's far enough back leave him in his own world - he might just see your flash of brake lights and overreact?When on the motorway, through long-distance observation, I often find that I don't actually need to brake - a lift of the throttle is sufficient. However, this gives no visual clue to a driver immediately behind me, who may react late, hit the brakes harder than required and end up causing a concertina effect, resulting in traffic half a mile back down the motorway coming to a standstill for apparently no reason - we've all been infuriated by that before...
Vaux said:
But...... if you show brake lights (unnecessarily, as simple throttle adjustment would suffice), aren't you precipitating the brake light show and consequent motorway standstill? If the chap behind needs waking up, OK, but if he's far enough back leave him in his own world - he might just see your flash of brake lights and overreact?
Often showing brake lights - no actual braking - for a second will do the trick and avoid that above senarioMunter said:
I'm trying to pick up on what the OPs being asked to do. Lets say the hazard is a roundabout where I'll have to stop due to traffic already on it. Braking from 70 in 6th, the car with start to get "lurchy" about 30-35mph (previously discovered due to tiredness and forgetting to change gear until the car made itself known!). So I'd be supposed to put the clutch down and "coast" to a stop on the brakes, when I can then engage neutral? I don't like to idea of spending that long holding the clutch down myself.
Or have I missed something about what the method is?
Is there a law against an intermediate gear at some point during the deceleration process? Let's say your hazard (the roundabout) has a bit of a bend on approach. What's the benefit of taking that bend with a labouring engine whilst desperately trying to follow a rule? There's always room for flexibility in 'the system'. Or have I missed something about what the method is?
7mike said:
Is there a law against an intermediate gear at some point during the deceleration process? Let's say your hazard (the roundabout) has a bit of a bend on approach. What's the benefit of taking that bend with a labouring engine whilst desperately trying to follow a rule? There's always room for flexibility in 'the system'.
the bend is your first hazard, the roundabout the second. Easy peasy!R0G said:
Dipping the clutch just enough to prevent lurchiness (is that a word?) is what it is designed for
The clutch is designed to be used to vary the speed when reversing etc
So i'd be slipping the clutch, while abusing the release bearing just to avoid a change in to 3rd earlier in the braking process. Seems a silly process. I'll use the all rules are flexible rule.The clutch is designed to be used to vary the speed when reversing etc
Munter said:
R0G said:
Dipping the clutch just enough to prevent lurchiness (is that a word?) is what it is designed for
The clutch is designed to be used to vary the speed when reversing etc
So i'd be slipping the clutch, while abusing the release bearing just to avoid a change in to 3rd earlier in the braking process. Seems a silly process. I'll use the all rules are flexible rule.The clutch is designed to be used to vary the speed when reversing etc
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