Snow Sock Insurance Issues

[Steve vRS]

I am trying to buy some Snow Socks for my company car and my boss has asked if there are any insurance issues with these. Now I am sure there can't be but wondered if anyone had a definitive answer?

I've tried to get Winter tyres but that is a no - no with the company but these should be allowed providing the above query is satisfied.

Steve

[Pondered Scrotum]

I've just bought some of these...so I'm interested...

[BertBert]

why are winter tyres a no-no?

We had this last winter when several insurance companies were charging people to put winter tyres on as it was a "modification". Common sense prevailed and they were put in their place.

The same is true of snow socks/chains.

You may not be able to get through the fud from your boss and the ins co, but it would be insanity not to allow snow socks or winter tyres.

Further from the dreaded H&S point of view, employers are legally obligated to look after the safety of their employees. That would be an intersting one to watch play out when a load of company car drivers had accidents in the winter weather and the company had refused them winter tyres!

Bert

Edited by BertBert on Saturday 30th July 13:47

[onboard]

Hi,

Where are you in the country and what are you driving?

From a health and safety point of view you have a strong case for winter tyres.

Brian

[Pontoneer]

If the weather turns bad , you could be quite entitled to refuse to drive a vehicle fitted with tyres unsuitable for the prevalent conditions .

Since Summer tyres are only specified for use in temperatures above 7 deg C , the vehicle could be considered unfit for purpose when temperatures drop lower ( ie most of the winter months ) .

[BertBert]

Pontoneer said:

Since Summer tyres are only specified for use in temperatures above 7 deg C , the vehicle could be considered unfit for purpose when temperatures drop lower ( ie most of the winter months ) .

Really? What does "specified" mean? Are you saying that the tyres that the vast majority of cars have on in the UK are not supposed to be used below 7 deg? I'm not convinced.

I think your argument is the wrong way round. Rather than the OP arguing that his tyres are not fit for purpose below 7 degress (which he'd lose), the company arguing that winter tyres/snow socks are not an improvement would lose.

BErt

[HellDiver]

BertBert said:

Really? What does "specified" mean? Are you saying that the tyres that the vast majority of cars have on in the UK are not supposed to be used below 7 deg? I'm not convinced.

Convinced or not, it's true.

Most cars in the US are sold with 4-Seasons tyres. We get Summer tyres in Europe for some strange reason.

[BertBert]

HellDiver said:

Convinced or not, it's true.

Most cars in the US are sold with 4-Seasons tyres. We get Summer tyres in Europe for some strange reason.

Well I'm interested in finding out more. Do you have any references I could look at?

[Pontoneer]

BertBert said:

Really? What does "specified" mean? Are you saying that the tyres that the vast majority of cars have on in the UK are not supposed to be used below 7 deg? I'm not convinced.

I think your argument is the wrong way round. Rather than the OP arguing that his tyres are not fit for purpose below 7 degress (which he'd lose), the company arguing that winter tyres/snow socks are not an improvement would lose.

BErt

I am saying that ( see the link below from Continental's website ) . This is exactly why so many motorists in this country get into so much trouble every winter , and why winter tyres are mandatory in many other European countries with climates very similar to ours . Summer tyres are NOT specified for use in temperatures below 7 deg C , hence they indisputably are not fit for purpose below these temperatures and why the manufacturers make cold weather tyres for winter use .

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/uk/en/co...

BertBert said:

Well I'm interested in finding out more. Do you have any references I could look at?

And another reference - plenty more on the net if you spend some time looking - these two have taken me 10 minutes to dig up .

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_g...

Another reference , this time from Kwik Fit ( who , I am sure , would be just as happy to sell you Summer Tyres as Winter ones )

http://www.kwik-fit.com/why-fit-winter-tyres.asp

Edited by Pontoneer on Thursday 4th August 19:27

[Zod]

HellDiver said:

BertBert said:

Really? What does "specified" mean? Are you saying that the tyres that the vast majority of cars have on in the UK are not supposed to be used below 7 deg? I'm not convinced.

Convinced or not, it's true.

Most cars in the US are sold with 4-Seasons tyres. We get Summer tyres in Europe for some strange reason.

because in much of the rest of Europe they fit winter tyres as a matter of course, e.g. in Scandinavia, Germany, Switzerland and Austria.

[BertBert]

I understand what you are saying guys, but I am looking for a specific reference that says the tyres that the majority of people in the UK use are not "specified" for use in the winter in the UK (that was the claim that I am sceptical about). I know all about winter tyres and how much better they are in the snow.

So the fact that winter tyres are designed to work below 7 degrees does not imply that "everyday tyres" are "not specified" for winter.

So happy to believe it if there is a technical reference other than people talking about winter tyres.

Bert

[LooneyTunes]

BertBert said:

I understand what you are saying guys, but I am looking for a specific reference that says the tyres that the majority of people in the UK use are not "specified" for use in the winter in the UK (that was the claim that I am sceptical about). I know all about winter tyres and how much better they are in the snow.

So the fact that winter tyres are designed to work below 7 degrees does not imply that "everyday tyres" are "not specified" for winter.

So happy to believe it if there is a technical reference other than people talking about winter tyres.

Bert

I spent some time last year looking for specific references and couldn't find any. The tyre manufacturers websites all appear very carefully worded on the subject - the Conti site included - to the effect that below ~7degC you're "better off" with winter tyres, but found NO statements that summer tyres are "unsuitable" or outside spec (similarly no reference to winters being unsuitable for summer use).

I bought the winter tyres anyway - and will now have them every year, such was the improvement in every aspect of vehicle handling.

[Pontoneer]

BertBert said:

I understand what you are saying guys, but I am looking for a specific reference that says the tyres that the majority of people in the UK use are not "specified" for use in the winter in the UK (that was the claim that I am sceptical about). I know all about winter tyres and how much better they are in the snow.

So the fact that winter tyres are designed to work below 7 degrees does not imply that "everyday tyres" are "not specified" for winter.

So happy to believe it if there is a technical reference other than people talking about winter tyres.

Bert

The technical specs are not published on the website , but you can infer it from the following on Continental's website -

" .......drivers will benefit from using winter tyres on slush, ice, frost and even wet roads. In fact any time the temperature dips below +7 degrees centigrade, you’re better off on winter tyres ..............

Unlike summer tyres (everyday standard tyres in the UK), winter tyres do not harden at lower temperatures. That means they give you a much better grip on the road and the ability to stop in a shorter distance, increasing your safety on the road.

What’s the difference between a winter and a summer tyre?

The rubber compound of a winter tyre is very different to a summer tyre. It is designed specifically to work in temperatures under +7 degrees centigrade. **

What happens to a summer tyre when the temperature drops is that the tyre compound loses its flexibility, making it less grippy in low temperatures.


Winter tyres are made from specially developed compound with more natural rubber so they don’t harden when it’s cold, which means increased grip on the road and greater safety. "


** Implies that Summer tyres are 'NOT' designed to work in temperatures under +7 degrees centigrade and that the compounds harden , reducing grip , at lower temperatures .

The fact that so many people have difficulties driving in winter conditions on Summer tyres and that other countries mandate the use of Winter tyres during certain months point to the unsuitability of Summer Tyres in cold conditions . It is not inconceivable that as climate change brings colder winters such laws may be introduced here ( the Scottish Parliament have been reported to have been in consultation with tyre manufacturers as part of a consideration whether to introduce such a measure north of the border - I read that somewhere recently - sorry , can't remember where ) ,

Edited by Pontoneer on Friday 5th August 12:11

[BertBert]

As I said, I'm not disagreeing with the suitability of winter tyres. However I am disagreeing with the term "summer tyres". This term did not exist in the UK 2 years ago. So I am looking for a technical designation from the tyre manufacturers that the same tyres that were happily sold 2 years ago have suddenly become summer tyres as I don't think that has happened.

[Pontoneer]

Hmmm , the terms Summer Tyres , Winter Tyres and All-Season or Four-Seasons Tyres have existed for many years now ; I think it is just that people have been largely unaware of Winter Tyres in the UK until recently .

There is more information from Vredestein in the links below

http://www.vredestein.co.uk/index.asp?UserSessionI...

http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/Brochur...

http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/Brochur...

http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/Tyre%20...

[BertBert]

Hey ho, must just be in my own little world then!

[Steve vRS]

Is there any case history where any drivers or employers - company car or otherwise - have been prosecuted for being at fault for not fitting winter tyres? Until there is, I can't see millions of company cars getting them changed as it would be seen as a disproportionate cost versus the risk reduction.

Back to the thread, has anyone had any insurance issues with Snow Socks?

Regards

Steve

[BertBert]

Steve vRS said:

Is there any case history where any drivers or employers - company car or otherwise - have been prosecuted for being at fault for not fitting winter tyres? Until there is, I can't see millions of company cars getting them changed as it would be seen as a disproportionate cost versus the risk reduction.

I agree, but actually the cost would be relatively low for a company car lease. You use tyres anyway, so not that much of an extra cost. A set of spare wheels is not that much. I also think that the cost versus risk reduction might be quite attractive.

Steve vRS said:

Back to the thread, has anyone had any insurance issues with Snow Socks?

No I don't think they have.

Bert

[alock]

Pontoneer said:

** Implies that Summer tyres are 'NOT' designed to work in temperatures under +7 degrees centigrade and that the compounds harden , reducing grip , at lower temperatures .

Have you actually got any independent test to back that up? I've only found two tests of winter vs summer tyres that are not massively weighted by a snow/ice test.

In large parts of the UK we get a couple of days snow per year so a product like snow socks are far more sensible.

We need more reviews that test winter vs summer tyres in dry, damp and wet conditions at temperatures like 0c, 5c and 10c.

The best I can find:

Auto Express
"At near freezing temperatures the Dunlop and Continental winter tyres out performed the summer tyre during the wet braking test. At 7+c this result was reversed, but in both tests the results were extremely close."

Inside line
"The eye-opener here relates to wet performance, where a well-developed summer tire embarrasses an all-season tire made for the same car by the same folks. Anyone who never sees or visits snow would be very well served by summer tires for year-round use."

[BertBert]

Well done, I got bored with trying to make that argument that the tyres previously used all year round in the UK have suddenly become summer tyres, not fit for purpose below 7 degrees