I.A.M Test Different in Scotland
Discussion
Or so I was told this morning. I was on my 5th run this morning and over the last few weeks there has been some debate about crossing the line in the centre of the road. Readers of my earlier thread will be familiar with this and may recall that my observer eventually agreed that (what I had done) was not unsafe. He continued to insist I would fail if I did it on my test.
I asked him to get out his copy of "How to be a Better Driver" and turn to page 69 where we find in the section on cornering: "but don't cross the white line unless you have the depth and width of vision to support doing so safely"
Now, I don't know about anyone here but I read that as meaning it is permissible to cross the line if it is safe. I thought that would put the matter to bed. On the contrary, he said he would seek further advice.
Today he informed me that he had consulted with "The Police" and informed me that the Police in Scotland are trained not to do this and therefore as it was Police drivers conducting the test it was not allowed and would be a fail. When I again quoted the I.A.M's own book I was told it was different in Scotland. I'm thinking of writing to the I.A.M for an explanation.
The subject of steering came up again today. I executed what I thought was a perfect "Three point turn" only to be criticised for not using pull/push on the forward parts of the manouevre. Some of the pedantry is geting me down and I can see how the I.A.M get the reputation they have.
I asked him to get out his copy of "How to be a Better Driver" and turn to page 69 where we find in the section on cornering: "but don't cross the white line unless you have the depth and width of vision to support doing so safely"
Now, I don't know about anyone here but I read that as meaning it is permissible to cross the line if it is safe. I thought that would put the matter to bed. On the contrary, he said he would seek further advice.
Today he informed me that he had consulted with "The Police" and informed me that the Police in Scotland are trained not to do this and therefore as it was Police drivers conducting the test it was not allowed and would be a fail. When I again quoted the I.A.M's own book I was told it was different in Scotland. I'm thinking of writing to the I.A.M for an explanation.
The subject of steering came up again today. I executed what I thought was a perfect "Three point turn" only to be criticised for not using pull/push on the forward parts of the manouevre. Some of the pedantry is geting me down and I can see how the I.A.M get the reputation they have.
Well , I was out on a drive a few months ago with two INSTRUCTORS from Tulliallan ; each of them , in separate cars ( there were a number of us swapping from car to car for different parts of the run ) , crossed the centre line to extend their views around bends and beyond other vehicles .
Pontoneer said:
Well , I was out on a drive a few months ago with two INSTRUCTORS from Tulliallan ; each of them , in separate cars ( there were a number of us swapping from car to car for different parts of the run ) , crossed the centre line to extend their views around bends and beyond other vehicles .
Hmm - I don't like the idea of going to the wrong side to extend the view, it sounds like the view wasn't great to start with which would be a bit iffy.Pontoneer said:
These drives were at pursuit speeds , reaching up to 140 mph at times on A roads in fully marked up traffic cars with blue lights operating etc . The rates we were closing on other traffic at times , early observation was essential .
That's fine - but if you couldn't see down the road, I don't see how crossing the white line would increase safety since you'd have to make a blind manouver to get over the white line.tulloch said:
I asked him to get out his copy of "How to be a Better Driver" and turn to page 69 where we find in the section on cornering: "but don't cross the white line unless you have the depth and width of vision to support doing so safely"
Now, I don't know about anyone here but I read that as meaning it is permissible to cross the line if it is safe. I thought that would put the matter to bed. On the contrary, he said he would seek further advice.
What edition is your book? I've got 1st ed. and the wording is slightly different but still permissive. Your version reads better!Now, I don't know about anyone here but I read that as meaning it is permissible to cross the line if it is safe. I thought that would put the matter to bed. On the contrary, he said he would seek further advice.
If you do it safely and to advantage an Examiner should not mark you down for it. I'd ask the Examiner what he expects.
If you can access the IAM Forum, there are various threads on this topic and Examiners come on and say they will accept it.
In the IAM Magazine, Peter Rodger, the Chief Examiner wrote,
"The IAM stance on the practice is that we do not require candidates taking the advanced drivng test to approach a left hand bend on the right hand side of the road. We expect them to approach a left hand bend near the centre line (or equivalent position) – and to “sacrifice” that position by moving to the left if there is reason to do so. If someone does “extend”, and does it well, we will accept that – but we do not encourage it."
Some Observers aren't happy with the concepts - if you get it wrong it will reflect badly on them and the IAM.
There are some lovely rural S bends or series of bends in places like Lincolnshire without any restrictions on the cross views so when nobody else is about the driver can use any part of the road and that often means 'offsiding'
If that was done on an IAM test then the examiners would not have a problem but if I was going to do such a thing then I would say it out loud first so that my intentions were known in advance
If that was done on an IAM test then the examiners would not have a problem but if I was going to do such a thing then I would say it out loud first so that my intentions were known in advance
davepoth said:
That's fine - but if you couldn't see down the road, I don't see how crossing the white line would increase safety since you'd have to make a blind manouver to get over the white line.
It was never a case of 'couldn't see down the road' , but early positioning can be used to extend views further around left hand bends , or past vehicles straight ahead , while there is still time to come back in safely if the extended view reveals something coming the other way .Pontoneer said:
It was never a case of 'couldn't see down the road' , but early positioning can be used to extend views further around left hand bends , or past vehicles straight ahead , while there is still time to come back in safely if the extended view reveals something coming the other way .
I use the same thing to do overtakes on parked vehicles whereas others tend to emerge from behind them laterOut early but leaving the option to return to my side and stop behind the parked vehicle - get some odd looks from other road users behind me when I do it
I was going to comment, but when I checked back to the 'Out For My Third Drive' thread it turns out we've already covered this in a fair amount of detail.
tulloch said:
Today he informed me that he had consulted with "The Police" and informed me that the Police in Scotland are trained not to do this and therefore as it was Police drivers conducting the test it was not allowed and would be a fail.
Wherever you are in the UK, I would suggest that you cannot be failed on an IAM or RoADAR test for any manoeuvre that doesn't conflict with the basic principles of being Safe, Systematic, Smooth, Legal and at an appropriate Speed.If I was you I would stick to my guns and ask of your observer very pointedly how can anyone be failed for a manoeuvre that is Safe, Systematic, Smooth, Legal and at an appropriate Speed? Some observers will hide behind a "third party", in this case "the police", in order to assert their position on a particular subject. If your observer is adamant and won't change his mind then I would ask to speak to an examiner in your area, they're usually quite approachable.
In my experience some observers/tutors do have a particular problem with straight lining/off siding. They may not be comfortable doing it themselves and are even more uncomfortable when their associate does it.
As an observer/tutor myself I am very careful about which associates are introduced to this technique. I've had some associates who struggle with the basics and to whom I would never, ever, introduce the technique of offsiding. However, if an associate asks me if it's ok to offside then, usually, I'm happy to introduce them to the principles involved.
If you find yourself up against a brick wall over this you can of course stay on your side of the road during the test and, when the examiner tells you you've passed then you can go and do whatever you like - provided it's Safe, Systematic, Smooth, Legal and at an appropriate Speed.
Perhaps this may help you in your answer to the Observer who has been giving you advice about the point on what we call Advanced positioning,this is a direct lift from the Examiners manual dealing with this issue .
Advanced Positioning – The IAM prefers its Test candidates to remain on
the correct side of the road whilst cornering, without exaggerating road
position in relation to depth of vision beyond the centre-line. Since road
speeds should always remain within the constraints of the law, exaggerated
road positioning beyond the centre-line is in the main unnecessary. However
if it is safely and effectively used by a Test candidate, accept it.
I think what you have to remember is that Police and IAM training are different for the obvious reason's and as has been said before the main criteria is SAFETY and the reason IAM observers don't advocate Advanced Positioning is in my opinion down to the big discrepancies between the standard of Observer trying to demonstrate this to an associate who if he gets it wrong then the IAM do not want to be held accountable for this action.
As sometimes the best of us get it wrong
as the photo illustrates and perhaps this is why there is reluctance/resistance in demonstrating the Advanced Line.
Advanced Positioning – The IAM prefers its Test candidates to remain on
the correct side of the road whilst cornering, without exaggerating road
position in relation to depth of vision beyond the centre-line. Since road
speeds should always remain within the constraints of the law, exaggerated
road positioning beyond the centre-line is in the main unnecessary. However
if it is safely and effectively used by a Test candidate, accept it.
I think what you have to remember is that Police and IAM training are different for the obvious reason's and as has been said before the main criteria is SAFETY and the reason IAM observers don't advocate Advanced Positioning is in my opinion down to the big discrepancies between the standard of Observer trying to demonstrate this to an associate who if he gets it wrong then the IAM do not want to be held accountable for this action.
As sometimes the best of us get it wrong
as the photo illustrates and perhaps this is why there is reluctance/resistance in demonstrating the Advanced Line.You can talk about it with your examiner when you get to the test. Before the drive starts, ask her what her views are about crossing the line in appropriate circumstances.
If she tells you its an automatic fail (unlikely) and you want to pass, don't cross it on the test.
If she tells you its acceptable in appropriate circumstances and an apppropriate circumstance arises on the test (it might or it might not), build it into your driving plan, add it into your commentary nice and early and do it.
If she tells you its an automatic fail (unlikely) and you want to pass, don't cross it on the test.
If she tells you its acceptable in appropriate circumstances and an apppropriate circumstance arises on the test (it might or it might not), build it into your driving plan, add it into your commentary nice and early and do it.
R0G said:
I use the same thing to do overtakes on parked vehicles whereas others tend to emerge from behind them later
Out early but leaving the option to return to my side and stop behind the parked vehicle - get some odd looks from other road users behind me when I do it
A perfectly valid technique as part of the overtaking procedure on any road . Out early but leaving the option to return to my side and stop behind the parked vehicle - get some odd looks from other road users behind me when I do it
If , for example , following a bus or a truck along an A road , you may not have a clear view beyond - there is nothing wrong with positioning towards the left for a view down the nearside on the approach to a left hand bend or , WITH CARE , 'coming out for a look' beyond the vehicle you are considering overtaking whilst not yet committing to the overtake .
If , as you start to come out , you catch sight of an oncoming vehicle , you just move back in again - otherwise you can move fully out into the other lane , then safely accelerate past the other vehicle .
It is much more effective to move the whole car out a little to extend your view than to crane your neck over towards the A pillar , as we see many drivers doing , in a frustrated attempt to see past when the car is poorly positioned to do so .
Vaux said:
tulloch said:
I asked him to get out his copy of "How to be a Better Driver" and turn to page 69 where we find in the section on cornering: "but don't cross the white line unless you have the depth and width of vision to support doing so safely"
Now, I don't know about anyone here but I read that as meaning it is permissible to cross the line if it is safe. I thought that would put the matter to bed. On the contrary, he said he would seek further advice.
What edition is your book? I've got 1st ed. and the wording is slightly different but still permissive. Your version reads better!Now, I don't know about anyone here but I read that as meaning it is permissible to cross the line if it is safe. I thought that would put the matter to bed. On the contrary, he said he would seek further advice.
If you do it safely and to advantage an Examiner should not mark you down for it. I'd ask the Examiner what he expects.
If you can access the IAM Forum, there are various threads on this topic and Examiners come on and say they will accept it.
In the IAM Magazine, Peter Rodger, the Chief Examiner wrote,
"The IAM stance on the practice is that we do not require candidates taking the advanced drivng test to approach a left hand bend on the right hand side of the road. We expect them to approach a left hand bend near the centre line (or equivalent position) – and to “sacrifice” that position by moving to the left if there is reason to do so. If someone does “extend”, and does it well, we will accept that – but we do not encourage it."
Some Observers aren't happy with the concepts - if you get it wrong it will reflect badly on them and the IAM.
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