Planning for others?
Discussion
When I did the IAM course, I was introduced to the concept of a Driving Plan. Like many drivers, it is not something I'd ever consciously thought about before taking further training. It's a great tool but I'm now wondering if I take planning too far on occasions and plan too much for others as well.
A particular scenario to explain:
Dual carriageway. Stream of slower traffic in L1, lets say lorries travelling at 55-ish mph. I am in L2 travelling faster than those in L1, lets say 70mph.
I am gaining on a car that is in L1 but travelling faster than the lorries. The car in L1 is, itself, gaining on a lorry in L1. The driver of the car in L1 is not making any attempt to move into L2.
I realise that my speed differential will put me alongside (or close to) at about the point where the car in L1 would need to overtake (i.e. to avoid driving into the back of the lorry).
I reach pretty much the limit of where acceleration sense will allow me to slow to the same speed of the car in L1 and mainatin a safe following distance, but there has still been no hint that the driver wants to pass the lorry.
Lets assume for the moment that there are no junctions/roundabouts/slip roads etc to complicate the situation.
As I see it, I've got three choices:
1) Slow down in anticipation that the driver will pull out.
2) Carry on at my current rate.
3) Speed up to pass the car (or assert my position) before they need to overtake the lorry.
I tend to do 1) from, what I believe to be, a safety point of view. My own safety - they will not pull out in front of me (or even potentially into me). Their safety - they will not have to brake at the last second to reduce their speed to that of the lorry.
However, most other drivers tend to do 2) or 3). If I'm being followed, my actions often result in me being tailgated which, in turn, potentially reduces my own saftey.
Should I really be doing 2) or 3) and asserting my priority in L2 - should I really not worry too much that the car in L1 will, more than likely, have to brake because the driver has not kept an eye on what is happening in L2?
Any thoughts?
A particular scenario to explain:
Dual carriageway. Stream of slower traffic in L1, lets say lorries travelling at 55-ish mph. I am in L2 travelling faster than those in L1, lets say 70mph.
I am gaining on a car that is in L1 but travelling faster than the lorries. The car in L1 is, itself, gaining on a lorry in L1. The driver of the car in L1 is not making any attempt to move into L2.
I realise that my speed differential will put me alongside (or close to) at about the point where the car in L1 would need to overtake (i.e. to avoid driving into the back of the lorry).
I reach pretty much the limit of where acceleration sense will allow me to slow to the same speed of the car in L1 and mainatin a safe following distance, but there has still been no hint that the driver wants to pass the lorry.
Lets assume for the moment that there are no junctions/roundabouts/slip roads etc to complicate the situation.
As I see it, I've got three choices:
1) Slow down in anticipation that the driver will pull out.
2) Carry on at my current rate.
3) Speed up to pass the car (or assert my position) before they need to overtake the lorry.
I tend to do 1) from, what I believe to be, a safety point of view. My own safety - they will not pull out in front of me (or even potentially into me). Their safety - they will not have to brake at the last second to reduce their speed to that of the lorry.
However, most other drivers tend to do 2) or 3). If I'm being followed, my actions often result in me being tailgated which, in turn, potentially reduces my own saftey.
Should I really be doing 2) or 3) and asserting my priority in L2 - should I really not worry too much that the car in L1 will, more than likely, have to brake because the driver has not kept an eye on what is happening in L2?
Any thoughts?
Edited by Phisp on Tuesday 12th July 12:37
3) would probably be illegal, so let's ignore it.
If approach 1) may cause drivers to start tailgating you, consider the possible effects of approach 2), should the driver in L1 pull out and cause you to brake firmly...
I'd probably take 1) - adjust my speed downward slightly, so that I change the timing of the potential conflict. That is, if I can see that I'm likely to be alongside at the time the other driver wants to pull out, then a small reduction of speed means that I'll be further back when does. Add to that keeping half an eye on him as you approach, looking for the subtle signals of what he intends to do. The tailgater can go and play with himself.
If approach 1) may cause drivers to start tailgating you, consider the possible effects of approach 2), should the driver in L1 pull out and cause you to brake firmly...
I'd probably take 1) - adjust my speed downward slightly, so that I change the timing of the potential conflict. That is, if I can see that I'm likely to be alongside at the time the other driver wants to pull out, then a small reduction of speed means that I'll be further back when does. Add to that keeping half an eye on him as you approach, looking for the subtle signals of what he intends to do. The tailgater can go and play with himself.
I'll generally speed up rather than slow down in such situations, as it gives me more control of the space around me. If I slow down, I'm more likely to end up at close quaters as the person behind closes up and the guy ahead pulls out. I'd rather squirt past and be away from both of them.
Phisp said:
When I did the IAM course, I was introduced to the concept of a Driving Plan. Like many drivers, it is not something I'd ever consciously thought about before taking further training. It's a great tool but I'm now wondering if I take planning too far on occasions and plan too much for others as well.
No, you are not taking things too far! The example you give is of a very suitable level of planning.PS - there is no right answer to that one. If you do decide to continue at the same speed, as you approach the vehicle which may pull out, position to the right hand side of your lane so you have maximum time to respond if he does start to pull out, be ready to give a horn/light warning, and think about the commitment point. Up to the commitment point, if he starts to pull out or signals right you will brake, after the commitment point if he does those things you will accelerate.
One further point - the earlier you adjust your speed, if you decide to do so, the smaller an adjustment in speed will be sufficient to sort out the situation.
Phisp said:
As I see it, I've got three choices:
1) Slow down in anticipation that the driver will pull out.
2) Carry on at my current rate.
3) Speed up to pass the car (or assert my position) before they need to overtake the lorry.
I wouldn't restrict myself to just one of these options. Each can legitimately be used if the circumstances warrant it. Safety is the ultimate override. So, try and read the situation, read the body language of the vehicles in lane 1. Use all the information that you can gather to anticipate what might happen and try and manage your piece of road, ie. the bit in front of you in lane 2 and also lane 1, and make your decision, in planning terms, according to the Safety Override.1) Slow down in anticipation that the driver will pull out.
2) Carry on at my current rate.
3) Speed up to pass the car (or assert my position) before they need to overtake the lorry.
Managing lane 1 can mean either creating space to allow the lane 1 vehicle out in to lane 2 if that's how you read the situation, or, alternatively, asserting your position in lane 2 if the lane 1 vehicle is showing no obvious signs of wanting to to change to lane 2.
Phisp said:
As I see it, I've got three choices:
1) Slow down in anticipation that the driver will pull out.
2) Carry on at my current rate.
3) Speed up to pass the car (or assert my position) before they need to overtake the lorry.
I tend to do 1) from, what I believe to be, a safety point of view. My own safety - they will not pull out in front of me (or even potentially into me). Their safety - they will not have to brake at the last second to reduce their speed to that of the lorry.
However, most other drivers tend to do 2) or 3). If I'm being followed, my actions often result in me being tailgated which, in turn, potentially reduces my own saftey.
Should I really be doing 2) or 3) and asserting my priority in L2 - should I really not worry too much that the car in L1 will, more than likely, have to brake because the driver has not kept an eye on what is happening in L2?
Any thoughts?
What if lane 1 driver is planning his overtake based on your current speed? Slowing down messes everything up. If he's closing quickly on the lorry I might slow expecting an overtake, but if he was maintaining his following distance or closing slightly I'd keep going, even adding a few mph to assist everyone's progress.1) Slow down in anticipation that the driver will pull out.
2) Carry on at my current rate.
3) Speed up to pass the car (or assert my position) before they need to overtake the lorry.
I tend to do 1) from, what I believe to be, a safety point of view. My own safety - they will not pull out in front of me (or even potentially into me). Their safety - they will not have to brake at the last second to reduce their speed to that of the lorry.
However, most other drivers tend to do 2) or 3). If I'm being followed, my actions often result in me being tailgated which, in turn, potentially reduces my own saftey.
Should I really be doing 2) or 3) and asserting my priority in L2 - should I really not worry too much that the car in L1 will, more than likely, have to brake because the driver has not kept an eye on what is happening in L2?
Any thoughts?
If you slow down, he could slow down, then you slow some more and next thing is 3 miles back the carriageway stops. Possibly.
Vaux said:
What if lane 1 driver is planning his overtake based on your current speed? Slowing down messes everything up. If he's closing quickly on the lorry I might slow expecting an overtake, but if he was maintaining his following distance or closing slightly I'd keep going, even adding a few mph to assist everyone's progress.
If you slow down, he could slow down, then you slow some more and next thing is 3 miles back the carriageway stops. Possibly.
That's reminded me how sodding annoying those idiots who almost overtake & then massively slow down are, they always seem to do it in order to hide in my blindspot & force me to brake when if they'd just driven past everything would have been fine.If you slow down, he could slow down, then you slow some more and next thing is 3 miles back the carriageway stops. Possibly.
generally option 2 for me, but always with a full awareness of what's around me in case the L1 driver just swings out. I'd try to be sure, by moving about in my lane for instance, that the L1 driver had every chance to see me and I'd look for some assurance that I had been seen by him.
If the gap to the lorry is small I wouldn't hesitate to speed up to get through the L1 driver's blind spot as quickly as possible and I could justify more speed to get past the hazard altogether.
Have had this on M62 a couple of times when I can see that we are approaching an incline but the L1 car behind the lorry is so close to the lorry that he ca't see the hill coming - extra care needed then as the lorry may start to slow on the incline and cause the L1 driver to pull out
If the gap to the lorry is small I wouldn't hesitate to speed up to get through the L1 driver's blind spot as quickly as possible and I could justify more speed to get past the hazard altogether.
Have had this on M62 a couple of times when I can see that we are approaching an incline but the L1 car behind the lorry is so close to the lorry that he ca't see the hill coming - extra care needed then as the lorry may start to slow on the incline and cause the L1 driver to pull out
waremark said:
Up to the commitment point, if he starts to pull out or signals right you will brake, after the commitment point if he does those things you will accelerate.
Which neatly brings me back to a thread I started earlier about people who signal to pull out just at the point where you're coming up to pass them (i.e. at the commitment point)! Chances are that if they've been catching up with the lorry for some time without planning how they're going to pass until the last moment, then they're very likely to be the kind of driver who thinks "Oh, here's a lorry in my way, signal, mirror (perhaps), manoeuvre". With such drivers I generally find that they signal but then get very confused if you actually slow down to let them out because they're expecting you to do what they would do, i.e. carry on. As waremark says, there's no single right answer, all you can do is try to read the intentions of other drivers (including those of anyone following close behind) and aim to minimise risk.gdaybruce said:
Which neatly brings me back to a thread I started earlier about people who signal to pull out just at the point where you're coming up to pass them (i.e. at the commitment point)! Chances are that if they've been catching up with the lorry for some time without planning how they're going to pass until the last moment, then they're very likely to be the kind of driver who thinks "Oh, here's a lorry in my way, signal, mirror (perhaps), manoeuvre". With such drivers I generally find that they signal but then get very confused if you actually slow down to let them out because they're expecting you to do what they would do, i.e. carry on.
I have also experienced this a few times.The lack of observation (forward as well as side and rear) and planning in many (most?) drivers is very worrying.
It is amazing that there aren't more accidents, although the motorway accidents are often in the same places.
Pontoneer said:
Another tactic which has not been mentioned - when you recognise the situation that is developing , give a timely warning of your approach to the driver in L1 by using your headlamp flasher - this is the correct proceedure .
I've made a deliberate decision to avoid flashing the headlamps unless it will be very clear what I mean. The Highway Code says a headlamp flash has the same meaning as using the horn but while 50% of people interpret a flash as meaning "I'm giving way to you, please pull out", the other 50% think it means "keep out of my way, I'm coming through". I think that in the example of catching up with a vehicle in lane 1 a healamp flash could be particularly open to misinterpretation.gdaybruce said:
I've made a deliberate decision to avoid flashing the headlamps unless it will be very clear what I mean. The Highway Code says a headlamp flash has the same meaning as using the horn but while 50% of people interpret a flash as meaning "I'm giving way to you, please pull out", the other 50% think it means "keep out of my way, I'm coming through". I think that in the example of catching up with a vehicle in lane 1 a healamp flash could be particularly open to misinterpretation.
I know that some people misinterpret this signal - however , if it is given in a sufficiently timely manner there is plenty of time to watch for a 'positive response' from the other driver and to act accordingly .The main point is that it helps to eliminate them not having seen you from the equation .
Can't argue with the theory and in some circumstances I'd agree with you. The trouble is, so many drivers seem to take offence to what was meant to be a helpful gesture that I now prefer to restrict headlight flashes to situations where my intention is as clear as can be. For example, I might use a headlight flash to signal to someone in traffic that I'm letting them pull out of a junction, in which case I'll also wave them out.
As ever, there are no hard and fast rules, it's a case of assessing each situation and deciding what will work best.
As ever, there are no hard and fast rules, it's a case of assessing each situation and deciding what will work best.
gdaybruce said:
Can't argue with the theory and in some circumstances I'd agree with you. The trouble is, so many drivers seem to take offence to what was meant to be a helpful gesture that I now prefer to restrict headlight flashes to situations where my intention is as clear as can be. For example, I might use a headlight flash to signal to someone in traffic that I'm letting them pull out of a junction, in which case I'll also wave them out.
As ever, there are no hard and fast rules, it's a case of assessing each situation and deciding what will work best.
I will not flash anyone out and certainly will not gesture to them but I will flash my lights to get their attention so that they notice what I am doingAs ever, there are no hard and fast rules, it's a case of assessing each situation and deciding what will work best.
example - someone with kids waiting in a small central crossing island - I will slow down and hold well back along with a flash - now up to them to decide what to do
I have got their attention so they notice what I am doing
Pedestrians wanting to cross the road are a case in point. I've seen too many examples where a well intentioned driver slows and makes it clear to pedestrians that he/she is letting them cross, generally waving to them and/or flahing the headlights, only for a following driver who hasn't seen the pedestrians to misinterpret what's happening, assume the car in front is slowing either to park or for no particular reason, and overtake. This is a particular risk on multi lane roads. Again, unless the circumstances are very clear, I prefer to stick to the right of way rules (stop if there's a pedestrian crossing, of course), be as predictable as possible, and let the pedestrians make their own decisions.
Notwithstnding that you slow down, in my view a headlight flash still creates uncertainty in their minds as to whether you're letting them cross or coming through.
Notwithstnding that you slow down, in my view a headlight flash still creates uncertainty in their minds as to whether you're letting them cross or coming through.
gdaybruce said:
Notwithstnding that you slow down, in my view a headlight flash still creates uncertainty in their minds as to whether you're letting them cross or coming through.
Imho, the headlight flash is now regarded by the majority (all?) as an invitation and while we may kid ourselves that we are "just alerting them to our presence" in reality we're inviting them to cross which, as you mention, could have implications if road users around us misinterpret that.Chris
gdaybruce said:
Pontoneer said:
Another tactic which has not been mentioned - when you recognise the situation that is developing , give a timely warning of your approach to the driver in L1 by using your headlamp flasher - this is the correct proceedure .
I've made a deliberate decision to avoid flashing the headlamps unless it will be very clear what I mean. The Highway Code says a headlamp flash has the same meaning as using the horn but while 50% of people interpret a flash as meaning "I'm giving way to you, please pull out", the other 50% think it means "keep out of my way, I'm coming through". I think that in the example of catching up with a vehicle in lane 1 a healamp flash could be particularly open to misinterpretation.The Black Flash said:
In the situation mentioned in the OP, a flash will be interpreted as "I'm letting you pull out" by virtually everyone, whatever the HC says.
The problem if they attempt to change it will be when an accidental flash is given perhaps when the indicators are being appliedI have seen this happen - on main road with first side road to left and second side road 50 yards further on right - car waiting to emerge in first side road - driver applies right indicator with accidental flash just prior to first side road - car thinks it is a come-out and a collision occurs
I was in a truck going towards them on the opposite carriageway
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff