Advanced driving for members of the public
Discussion
Hi
First post but have been reading with interest for months.
Speaking to a friend who is in the Police, about becoming an advanced driver he seems to suggest that any type of advanced training for civilians although good in its intentions is not really much above the standard of any other driver.
He said that with a civilain doing maybe 6-8 hours worth of development before a test, the standard is pretty low, but needs to be so its achievable to most people. This then keeps people interested and encourages more people to do it.
He seem to suggest calling it advanced is somewhat off the mark!
He went onto say that its good that people want to improve their driving though but suggested to me that unless I wanted to continue and develop much much further he wouldn't bother to start with.
I mentioned the Rospa gold and how someone who passes should do well on an Police advanced course, he just smiled and said that its not even the standard of a Police standard course and with the avanced course being a massive step up from standard, its unlikely to be as claimed.
Where do these claims base their foundations? As he said a civilain advanced course is within speed limits, so is in a whole different field from a standard Police course.
Don't really know what to do know?
Thanks Gareth
First post but have been reading with interest for months.
Speaking to a friend who is in the Police, about becoming an advanced driver he seems to suggest that any type of advanced training for civilians although good in its intentions is not really much above the standard of any other driver.
He said that with a civilain doing maybe 6-8 hours worth of development before a test, the standard is pretty low, but needs to be so its achievable to most people. This then keeps people interested and encourages more people to do it.
He seem to suggest calling it advanced is somewhat off the mark!
He went onto say that its good that people want to improve their driving though but suggested to me that unless I wanted to continue and develop much much further he wouldn't bother to start with.
I mentioned the Rospa gold and how someone who passes should do well on an Police advanced course, he just smiled and said that its not even the standard of a Police standard course and with the avanced course being a massive step up from standard, its unlikely to be as claimed.
Where do these claims base their foundations? As he said a civilain advanced course is within speed limits, so is in a whole different field from a standard Police course.
Don't really know what to do know?
Thanks Gareth
sounds to me like said PC would be well advised to spend a bit more time on chapter 1 of his Roadcraft book
Look, RoSPA gold is a good standard, throw in some track stuff and limit handling and you will be more than adequately trained to be safer, smoother and road aware than 99% of road users.
Police training has to involve high speed work because some of them are expected to drive at such speeds on the road. As it makes little sense to persistently drive much over the speed limit if you want to keep your licence then, for 'the public' there is less need to train at high speeds. But you can (and imo should), on tracks / airfields etc. once you have the basics of a roadcraft based approach to advanced driving in your toolkit
Ans surely its better to have ongoing tuition - a couple of hours every couple of months as a minimum imo
Look, RoSPA gold is a good standard, throw in some track stuff and limit handling and you will be more than adequately trained to be safer, smoother and road aware than 99% of road users.
Police training has to involve high speed work because some of them are expected to drive at such speeds on the road. As it makes little sense to persistently drive much over the speed limit if you want to keep your licence then, for 'the public' there is less need to train at high speeds. But you can (and imo should), on tracks / airfields etc. once you have the basics of a roadcraft based approach to advanced driving in your toolkit
Ans surely its better to have ongoing tuition - a couple of hours every couple of months as a minimum imo
Both civilian and police courses use the same handbook to teach from.
The differences your friend mentioned are due to the exemptions Police officers have. Once you get out into the open on a police "standard" course speeds increase as does the push for awareness for overtakes and other drivers actions/intentions(overtakes are obviously more available due to the increased speed). This is based mostly around the fact that most police drivers will then go on to a response course which means you will be overtaking in all sorts of locations.
So in essence the Standard course is equal to an advanced civilian course, but there is nothing to compare the higher courses too. from memory both IAM and ROSPA acept poice drivers as members with only the presentation of their police certificates(no exam by themselves) and a cheque.
Just because you don't get to excede the speed limit doesn't mean it won't be worth your time. as said put in a bit of effort and it will make you a more capable and more aware driver, which is never going to be a negative is it?
The differences your friend mentioned are due to the exemptions Police officers have. Once you get out into the open on a police "standard" course speeds increase as does the push for awareness for overtakes and other drivers actions/intentions(overtakes are obviously more available due to the increased speed). This is based mostly around the fact that most police drivers will then go on to a response course which means you will be overtaking in all sorts of locations.
So in essence the Standard course is equal to an advanced civilian course, but there is nothing to compare the higher courses too. from memory both IAM and ROSPA acept poice drivers as members with only the presentation of their police certificates(no exam by themselves) and a cheque.
Just because you don't get to excede the speed limit doesn't mean it won't be worth your time. as said put in a bit of effort and it will make you a more capable and more aware driver, which is never going to be a negative is it?
I've recently been involved in a project working with younger male drivers, coaching / instructing them in selected elements of the IAM syllabus. Objective monitoring showed a massive difference in behaviour after just the first hour-long session, let alone the full course.
For your friend to suggest that advanced training is pointless unless taken to a high level is just plain wrong. I'd be surprised if you can find many people who agree with him.
If you're near Leicester you could do worse than seek out R0G, who often posts here. I suspect a drive with him could give you a more balanced perspective on what you stand to gain.
For your friend to suggest that advanced training is pointless unless taken to a high level is just plain wrong. I'd be surprised if you can find many people who agree with him.
If you're near Leicester you could do worse than seek out R0G, who often posts here. I suspect a drive with him could give you a more balanced perspective on what you stand to gain.
Edited by S. Gonzales Esq. on Saturday 9th July 23:29
Guys
Thanks for the response.
He didn't say it was a waste of time just that its not much above the usual driving public standard and unless I was going to carry on with it then there's not much point in starting which I guess makes sense.
He explained to me that the standard Police driving course is called the response course in some forces, generally 3 weeks driver training.
I don't think he doesn't want me to do it, I just think he wants me to have a realistic expectation of the standards.
He did mention roadcraft but said this was a Police book that civilains have used as part of their training.
Cheers
Thanks for the response.
He didn't say it was a waste of time just that its not much above the usual driving public standard and unless I was going to carry on with it then there's not much point in starting which I guess makes sense.
He explained to me that the standard Police driving course is called the response course in some forces, generally 3 weeks driver training.
I don't think he doesn't want me to do it, I just think he wants me to have a realistic expectation of the standards.
He did mention roadcraft but said this was a Police book that civilains have used as part of their training.
Cheers
TBH, he sounds like a bit of an eejit trying to bully up his own lot.
I doubt very much that someone at, say, 21 who's just done their 3 weeks of training is going to be massively better than, say, someone who has done 1/2 million + post IAM/RoSPA miles over numerous years, might have done track days, other courses etc (not me, I'm only on a measly 400k and haven't managed the other bits yet
).
I doubt very much that someone at, say, 21 who's just done their 3 weeks of training is going to be massively better than, say, someone who has done 1/2 million + post IAM/RoSPA miles over numerous years, might have done track days, other courses etc (not me, I'm only on a measly 400k and haven't managed the other bits yet
).dumpster said:
...just that its not much above the usual driving public standard and unless I was going to carry on with it then there's not much point in starting...
I'm not sure that does make much sense actually. I'd argue that someone driving to the level of a good RoSPA or IAM pass is significantly above the standard of the majority of drivers, and therefore much more able to avoid the mistakes of others as well as minimising their own.It is, however, important to be aware of where things like IAM and RoSPA sit in the ladder of advanced training and that they're not the pinnacle of the art, or indeed the only things you can do.
I think the (thankfully increasingly rare) attitude of some in these organisations that there's nothing to learn beyond their techniques doesn't do any favours for their perception amongst driving enthusiasts.
I will not go into comparing police advanced with civilian advanced as that can never get to a conclusion due to 'the nature of the beast'
The cop mentioned only a few hours which is correct for the time that the civvy advanced driving associate is with the observer before test but that is over a long time period in which the associate practises at their own pace
In reality it is a few months and not a few hours that the associate practices before test (on average)
The difference between civvy 'average' and 'advanced' is very clear to see when out on the roads if you look for them
Not that easy to see the advanced civvys as the idea is to make progress without making it stand out - a show off is unlikely to be an advanced driver!!
Quietly thinking the way through situations in order to make safe progress is what any advanced driver strives to do
I would suggest contacting a local IAM or ROSPA group near to you and asking for a FREE assessment and a demo drive - links to those organisations are at the top of this forum
Does that clarify things a little better?
The cop mentioned only a few hours which is correct for the time that the civvy advanced driving associate is with the observer before test but that is over a long time period in which the associate practises at their own pace
In reality it is a few months and not a few hours that the associate practices before test (on average)
The difference between civvy 'average' and 'advanced' is very clear to see when out on the roads if you look for them
Not that easy to see the advanced civvys as the idea is to make progress without making it stand out - a show off is unlikely to be an advanced driver!!
Quietly thinking the way through situations in order to make safe progress is what any advanced driver strives to do
I would suggest contacting a local IAM or ROSPA group near to you and asking for a FREE assessment and a demo drive - links to those organisations are at the top of this forum
Does that clarify things a little better?
Gents
Yes thanks, that clears things up a bit. I just didn't want to go down a route and regret it. One last thing he did say is pick your group, as many are rather old fashioned, or stuck in their ways. As someone else mentioned that they think there is nothing better than what they do.
I'm 30 so it would be nice to be around like minded people who aren't going to belittle or the old "when I were your age" stuff!
Thanks Gareth
Yes thanks, that clears things up a bit. I just didn't want to go down a route and regret it. One last thing he did say is pick your group, as many are rather old fashioned, or stuck in their ways. As someone else mentioned that they think there is nothing better than what they do.
I'm 30 so it would be nice to be around like minded people who aren't going to belittle or the old "when I were your age" stuff!
Thanks Gareth
It's an intersting question of just how much one's driving improves through passing the advanced driving test. Partly it depends on what standard you were before.
When I was looking in to some advanced driver training for the people in my company that drove around the country to customers, I same some impressive stats about the change in accident rate after passing the advanced test. Of course the stats were presented as part of a sales pitch so were going to show it in a good light.
Perhaps your friend being a pro has access to some stats about MoP AD that back up his assertion that it does no good.
From your telling of events, your friend could be a bit star-struck about his pro AD training. It's very easy to attain superstar status in ones own mind. From my rather old Roadcraft it says "most drivers consider themselves both safer and more skilful than the average" This is talking about the correct mental characteristics of a good driver.
It could be that he's just being a bit of a knob
Bert
When I was looking in to some advanced driver training for the people in my company that drove around the country to customers, I same some impressive stats about the change in accident rate after passing the advanced test. Of course the stats were presented as part of a sales pitch so were going to show it in a good light.
Perhaps your friend being a pro has access to some stats about MoP AD that back up his assertion that it does no good.
From your telling of events, your friend could be a bit star-struck about his pro AD training. It's very easy to attain superstar status in ones own mind. From my rather old Roadcraft it says "most drivers consider themselves both safer and more skilful than the average" This is talking about the correct mental characteristics of a good driver.
It could be that he's just being a bit of a knob
Bert
dumpster said:
Gents
Yes thanks, that clears things up a bit. I just didn't want to go down a route and regret it. One last thing he did say is pick your group, as many are rather old fashioned, or stuck in their ways. As someone else mentioned that they think there is nothing better than what they do.
I'm 30 so it would be nice to be around like minded people who aren't going to belittle or the old "when I were your age" stuff!
Thanks Gareth
I cannot speak for any other group but mine in Leicester tends to treat all drivers the same no matter what gender age etc - 'they are drivers' who wish to improve and attain advanced test standardYes thanks, that clears things up a bit. I just didn't want to go down a route and regret it. One last thing he did say is pick your group, as many are rather old fashioned, or stuck in their ways. As someone else mentioned that they think there is nothing better than what they do.
I'm 30 so it would be nice to be around like minded people who aren't going to belittle or the old "when I were your age" stuff!
Thanks Gareth
The 'cloth cap and driving gloves' are a real myth these days but the word 'institution' is still there which may put some off doing it
I have assisted over 100 associates over the past 12 years to attain AD test pass and I have learnt things from many of those - just because I have an AD 'title' does not mean I am better than a driver who I am assisting (or anyone else come to that)
IMO - those that believe they are better need to re-assess their thinking
ROG
Senior obs
IAM Leicester
I've got RoSPA gold - we did it at work with Police driving instructors as part of defensive driver training.
To be honest, I thought it was all a bit bleedin' obvious, but I've always been interested in, and taken pride in, my driving.
Going out in the car on training with other employees though, you wonder how some of them passed their tests in the first place.
So I suppose a lot depends on the standard of the driver in the first place - I don't think it made any difference to me, but a tiny improvements make a big difference to some of out other drivers. Interestingly, the poorer drivers didn't like defensive driving at all - they thought it was far too aggressive.
To be honest, I thought it was all a bit bleedin' obvious, but I've always been interested in, and taken pride in, my driving.
Going out in the car on training with other employees though, you wonder how some of them passed their tests in the first place.
So I suppose a lot depends on the standard of the driver in the first place - I don't think it made any difference to me, but a tiny improvements make a big difference to some of out other drivers. Interestingly, the poorer drivers didn't like defensive driving at all - they thought it was far too aggressive.
Deva Link said:
Interestingly, the poorer drivers didn't like defensive driving at all - they thought it was far too aggressive.
Probably more to do with - "My driving is ok so why should I bother with this?" - type of attitude/ resistance to consider changeThose that are not willing or open-mined enough cannot be TOLD anything as it is impossible to make changes to someone elses thinking - unless you are a brain surgeon who can do a rewiring of the brain!! LOL
Those who decided to go for the advanced made a concious decision to do so in the vast majority of cases
Those who perhaps got a course as a freebie (present/work) are often not so willing
R0G said:
Deva Link said:
Interestingly, the poorer drivers didn't like defensive driving at all - they thought it was far too aggressive.
Probably more to do with - "My driving is ok so why should I bother with this?" - type of attitude/ resistance to consider changeBold positioning and using the gears so you were going around bends at 5K RPM (petrol engines) were particularly things that some drivers didn't like.
Deva Link said:
I've said this before, but the way the ex-Police guys taught us, "defensive" is a complete misnoma. "Forceful" would be more appropriate!
Bold positioning and using the gears so you were going around bends at 5K RPM (petrol engines) were particularly things that some drivers didn't like.
Lack of confidence in being able to demonstrate such things springs to mind but I would not go to that extreme - flexible gear and under control etc etc is all that is required so perhaps this mr ex plod was trying to turn them into police traffic drivers who were on a chase??Bold positioning and using the gears so you were going around bends at 5K RPM (petrol engines) were particularly things that some drivers didn't like.
R0G said:
...perhaps this mr ex plod was trying to turn them into police traffic drivers who were on a chase??
We actually did some high-speed driving with one of them - he said we'd need to know how to drive if we were late for an appointment. I thought it was great - but apparently on one session, a couple of the guys asked if they could get out of the car!
dumpster said:
How long was the course to get your Gold?
Cheers Gareth
It was an annual thing - one whole day but shared with (usually 2 other employees). We did it for 2 years I think and then one year did half a day on our own and then the test in the afternoon.Cheers Gareth
Once we'd passed the test we then did a half-day and re-test every 3yrs.
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