Extreme hill start/climb
Discussion
So, this past weekend I was on a driving weekend in North Wales with the TT Owners Club. An amazing time was had by all, but I did come unstuck at one point.
You see, part of the route was up what was described as a "steep hill". I call it a cliff to be honest!
The road in question leads up to Harlech Castle. I got part way up, realised that I wasn't going to make my next turn in 2nd gear as the road got even steeper, so went to grab 1st, messed the whole thing up (may have got 3rd by accident but unsure due to abject panic!), stalled, rolled back a bit, handbrake on. Car still moving backwards (although in hindsight I don't know whether it was just settling, or whether it was actually rolling), so I'm on the footbrake also.
Re-start engine, select 1st, try to swap feet over quickly to avoid rolling back, stall it again. By this time I'm terrified, thinking that gravity is going to be the end of me and my beautiful car! Heart pumping in my ears, the works!
Ultimately, third time lucky, I managed to get moving, get round the corner and then on up to the village of Harlech. I say this, but I only just got round the corner, even with a 225bhp Quattro system under my right foot. Others found it taxing, but managed to get up to the top without the trauma I had.
So what this tells me is that this is a pilot failing rather than a mechanical failing. I've been having nightmares about that point on the road where it all went so wrong (seriously!) and I want to be able to conquer it if I'm ever in a similar situation.
So, how would you guys go about it? Would you have stopped, handbrake, select 1st then carry on? Or kept rolling and grabbed 1st as you went? High revs, clutch fully out, partly in? Oh, and what about traction control: on or off? I only thought about that extra variable this morning, but wonder which would be best for this situation.
As for the road itself, well it's apparently a 40% incline! And here's a Youtube video of it. The biker on the vid goes down, then back up. The point where I had my "incident" and lost the plot was at the corner he takes at around 3:16 on the footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjMg94AaM7M
You see, part of the route was up what was described as a "steep hill". I call it a cliff to be honest!
The road in question leads up to Harlech Castle. I got part way up, realised that I wasn't going to make my next turn in 2nd gear as the road got even steeper, so went to grab 1st, messed the whole thing up (may have got 3rd by accident but unsure due to abject panic!), stalled, rolled back a bit, handbrake on. Car still moving backwards (although in hindsight I don't know whether it was just settling, or whether it was actually rolling), so I'm on the footbrake also.
Re-start engine, select 1st, try to swap feet over quickly to avoid rolling back, stall it again. By this time I'm terrified, thinking that gravity is going to be the end of me and my beautiful car! Heart pumping in my ears, the works!
Ultimately, third time lucky, I managed to get moving, get round the corner and then on up to the village of Harlech. I say this, but I only just got round the corner, even with a 225bhp Quattro system under my right foot. Others found it taxing, but managed to get up to the top without the trauma I had.
So what this tells me is that this is a pilot failing rather than a mechanical failing. I've been having nightmares about that point on the road where it all went so wrong (seriously!) and I want to be able to conquer it if I'm ever in a similar situation.
So, how would you guys go about it? Would you have stopped, handbrake, select 1st then carry on? Or kept rolling and grabbed 1st as you went? High revs, clutch fully out, partly in? Oh, and what about traction control: on or off? I only thought about that extra variable this morning, but wonder which would be best for this situation.
As for the road itself, well it's apparently a 40% incline!
And here's a Youtube video of it. The biker on the vid goes down, then back up. The point where I had my "incident" and lost the plot was at the corner he takes at around 3:16 on the footage.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjMg94AaM7M
It's times like that I utterly love the Mrs car. Press the brake really hard and it locks the wheels as if the handbrake is on allowing you you drive off as normal.
Hill start assist or some such. Lazy mans tool, but nice when you just can't be arsed/have terrain issues.
I do wonder how that would fly on a driving test though...
Hill start assist or some such. Lazy mans tool, but nice when you just can't be arsed/have terrain issues.
I do wonder how that would fly on a driving test though...
Traction control on. (Why on earth would you want it off to drive up a tarmac hill?)
I would have gone for first gear while rolling if I still had forward momentum.
When it became apparent I was going backwards I'd stop the car on the foot brake with the clutch in. (Right foot on brake, left foot on clutch). I'd then select 1st gear. If it won't go in then put it in neutral, engage and then disengage the clutch and try again. Once it's in 1st then just do a 'beefier' hill start if I wasn't confident in the handbrake holding me:
1. Find the bite point with the clutch while holding the car on the foot brake and handbrake, then
2. Quickly move right foot from brake to gas and adjust clutch position to continue to hold car, then almost immediately
3. Release handbrake and drive away.
My 330d has enough torque at tickover to hold the car on the clutch without any gas pedal. So I can do a hill start without the hand brake. (i.e. hold on foot brake, bring clutch up in 1st to hold the car, then release the brake and press the gas while bringing the clutch up.) However this isn't an option in all cars, so the best answer I've found is to still hold the car on the clutch bite point but hold it on the handbrake and footbrake too if the car hasn't got the torque to do it at tickover. Then you'll have a brief moment where you move from the foot brake to the gas when the car is only being held by the hand brake and the clutch on tickover. (This is why it's beefier than a regular hill start which would be handbrake only, then gas and clutch.) So even if the clutch can't hold the car by itself on tickover, and you don't trust the handbrake alone either, hopefully them together (beefier) will hold the car for the brief moment it takes to transfer your right foot from brake to gas. You might roll back a little, but that should be pretty minimal, but of course check behind yourself first.
You should only need this beefy method on a very steep hill or if you're driving a car with a defective hand brake, because normally the handbrake will be sufficient to hold the car without needing to use the clutch on tickover too, but it's an option if you need it.
HTH
I would have gone for first gear while rolling if I still had forward momentum.
When it became apparent I was going backwards I'd stop the car on the foot brake with the clutch in. (Right foot on brake, left foot on clutch). I'd then select 1st gear. If it won't go in then put it in neutral, engage and then disengage the clutch and try again. Once it's in 1st then just do a 'beefier' hill start if I wasn't confident in the handbrake holding me:
1. Find the bite point with the clutch while holding the car on the foot brake and handbrake, then
2. Quickly move right foot from brake to gas and adjust clutch position to continue to hold car, then almost immediately
3. Release handbrake and drive away.
My 330d has enough torque at tickover to hold the car on the clutch without any gas pedal. So I can do a hill start without the hand brake. (i.e. hold on foot brake, bring clutch up in 1st to hold the car, then release the brake and press the gas while bringing the clutch up.) However this isn't an option in all cars, so the best answer I've found is to still hold the car on the clutch bite point but hold it on the handbrake and footbrake too if the car hasn't got the torque to do it at tickover. Then you'll have a brief moment where you move from the foot brake to the gas when the car is only being held by the hand brake and the clutch on tickover. (This is why it's beefier than a regular hill start which would be handbrake only, then gas and clutch.) So even if the clutch can't hold the car by itself on tickover, and you don't trust the handbrake alone either, hopefully them together (beefier) will hold the car for the brief moment it takes to transfer your right foot from brake to gas. You might roll back a little, but that should be pretty minimal, but of course check behind yourself first.
You should only need this beefy method on a very steep hill or if you're driving a car with a defective hand brake, because normally the handbrake will be sufficient to hold the car without needing to use the clutch on tickover too, but it's an option if you need it.
HTH
burns76 said:
You see, part of the route was up what was described as a "steep hill". I call it a cliff to be honest!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjMg94AaM7M
Is that Fford Pen Llech?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjMg94AaM7M
Isn't it a one way road? Down? (Sign at 1:31 on video).
doogz said:
If i was literally about to grind to a halt, i'd probably have double de-clutched into first and kept going.
Easy to say though, everyone misses a gear every now and then, no-one is perfect.
Me too. I also tend to use a heel & toe type manouvre here as the handbrake frequently isn't man enough to hold the car on very steep hills.Easy to say though, everyone misses a gear every now and then, no-one is perfect.
Vaux said:
Is that Fford Pen Llech?
Isn't it a one way road? Down? (Sign at 1:31 on video).
Yep, the very same road.Isn't it a one way road? Down? (Sign at 1:31 on video).
On that video I saw the no entry sign, however, our leader on the day is a PC and is very thorough with the checks and had done a recce beforehand. TBH I didn't see a no entry sign on the road this weekend, nor did anyone else of our eight-strong group (plus passengers for some), so it may have been changed now (I think that vid is a couple of years old).
doogz said:
Indeed, modern cars do have synchros, but if you're moving, you'll still find it easier to get into first if you double de-clutch. Your gearbox will prefer it too.
As for TC, i don't have it, and on dry tarmac, don't think it's even relevant. And you have quattro, i really don't think traction should have been an issue, was it?
Traction wasn't a concern, but for a good start off the line (eg at the Pod or at traffic lights in "certain" circumstances As for TC, i don't have it, and on dry tarmac, don't think it's even relevant. And you have quattro, i really don't think traction should have been an issue, was it?
) it's a case of traction control off, more power to the wheels, and nothing to interfere with the power sent to each of the wheels. Since gravity was very much not my friend (I felt like my car was at that point on Oblivion at Alton Towers where you hang and then get released like a bullet!) I have since pondered that maximum power to the wheels might have been the way forward to get me up the hill from the standing start.
If you can get it into first before needing to stop (with or without DDC it really doesn't matter), then off you go.
If you come to a stop and the handbrake wont hold, hopefully the process described already will work. If tickover's not enough to hold the car, then you need more revs to move off. If you can't H&T, then it all gets a bit trickier.
If you cant get the revs to do a hillstart then you either have to look for some other way of holding the car, such as some kind of chock. Or reverse back onto a kerb, rock or similar.
Failing that you might have to reverse down.
Failing that, you might need someone with a Landy!
Bert
If you come to a stop and the handbrake wont hold, hopefully the process described already will work. If tickover's not enough to hold the car, then you need more revs to move off. If you can't H&T, then it all gets a bit trickier.
If you cant get the revs to do a hillstart then you either have to look for some other way of holding the car, such as some kind of chock. Or reverse back onto a kerb, rock or similar.
Failing that you might have to reverse down.
Failing that, you might need someone with a Landy!
Bert
In a situation such as the one you describe and on a truly steep hill, if you come to a halt it's quite probable that the handbrake alone will not hold the car. Moreover, getting started again requires revs and a degree of brutality if you're to avoid stalling or rolling backwards. It's very easy to keep the clutch slipping and it will then overheat very quickly and fade in a cloud of smoke, all adding to the sense of panic and lack of forwards movement!
If this is the situation, your only option is to ease the car back down the hill on the footbrake. Select reverse gear but keep the clutch pedal down initially because if you let it up the car will surge backwards and you'll feel that you're out of control. Once rolling, let the clutch up. Remember that the footbrake is well able to hold the car on any hill, even if your right leg is beginning to tremble with the tension in your muscles! What you want is a SLOW descent at walking speed until the road begins to level out. You can then stop, rest, think about it, and when you're ready, select 1st and hold 1st until you're safely past the steep bit.
If this is the situation, your only option is to ease the car back down the hill on the footbrake. Select reverse gear but keep the clutch pedal down initially because if you let it up the car will surge backwards and you'll feel that you're out of control. Once rolling, let the clutch up. Remember that the footbrake is well able to hold the car on any hill, even if your right leg is beginning to tremble with the tension in your muscles! What you want is a SLOW descent at walking speed until the road begins to level out. You can then stop, rest, think about it, and when you're ready, select 1st and hold 1st until you're safely past the steep bit.
BertBert said:
Failing that, you might need someone with a Landy!
And that's where it can get fun on very steep hills as I found out once when I needed to do the following before stopping as lack of grip would have prevented me starting off again -Gearbox into netural
double declutch into low box
gearbox into 2nd
& carry on.
Hooli said:
BertBert said:
Failing that, you might need someone with a Landy!
And that's where it can get fun on very steep hills as I found out once when I needed to do the following before stopping as lack of grip would have prevented me starting off again -Gearbox into netural
double declutch into low box
gearbox into 2nd
& carry on.
Bert
The perfectionist that I am, I'd like to say that I would have simply been looking further ahead than you were, thus enabling me to notice much sooner that I would need to deal with a steeper gradient and wouldn't, therefore, have had to attempt a rushed down change that could easily have gone wrong.
But, in reality, I would probably have done something more similar to your description and got plenty of revs on it to avoid a stall on the hill start
But, in reality, I would probably have done something more similar to your description and got plenty of revs on it to avoid a stall on the hill start
Yeah, I'll admit I should have been looking further ahead than I was. There's a lesson in everything we all do! But even had I been looking further ahead, I doubt I would have avoided getting so flustered, which is why I've asked for the advice above.
I have also discovered that I made an error.
Turns out that the video isn't of the actual road we used (good, because at least I don't have to worry that I went against a no entry sign!) - it's apparently of the next one along. Oops. In any event, they are pretty similar, and the part I identified on the video looks remarkably similar to the one where I came unstuck.
I'm going to be practising the tips so helpfully given on here, on whichever steep hills I can find near home so that I won't repeat the same mistakes again.
I have also discovered that I made an error.
Turns out that the video isn't of the actual road we used (good, because at least I don't have to worry that I went against a no entry sign!) - it's apparently of the next one along. Oops. In any event, they are pretty similar, and the part I identified on the video looks remarkably similar to the one where I came unstuck.I'm going to be practising the tips so helpfully given on here, on whichever steep hills I can find near home so that I won't repeat the same mistakes again.
burns76 said:
As for the road itself, well it's apparently a 40% incline! And here's a Youtube video of it. The biker on the vid goes down, then back up. The point where I had my "incident" and lost the plot was at the corner he takes at around 3:16 on the footage.
Hmm, it is steep... although both this road and the one you posted a youtube clip for are signed 25% at the bottom (check on streetview), which is nowhere near 40%! And here's a Youtube video of it. The biker on the vid goes down, then back up. The point where I had my "incident" and lost the plot was at the corner he takes at around 3:16 on the footage.Many drives and carparks have steeper sections than this, I find cars/motorbikes very poor to detecting incline, due to the power:weight, try walking or cycling what you think is a "flat" route (in a car) to get a real appreaciation for the undulation of even modestly steep roads.
I wouldn't beat yourself up about a fluffed gearchange then rushed and botched hill-start- many people can't change gear on the flat properly!
It is actually 40%, as streetview from the top corroborates. This stretch isn't covered by streetview from the bottom.
Personally If a regular handbrake only hillstart wasn't sufficient I'd do the normal hillstart steps but also keep the footbrake on until I'm ready, then swap to accelerator, get a good amount of revs on and bring the clutch in quickly, and simultaneously drop the handbrake. All being ready to go back to the foot brake at any time should I mess it up.
Personally If a regular handbrake only hillstart wasn't sufficient I'd do the normal hillstart steps but also keep the footbrake on until I'm ready, then swap to accelerator, get a good amount of revs on and bring the clutch in quickly, and simultaneously drop the handbrake. All being ready to go back to the foot brake at any time should I mess it up.
BertBert said:
Hooli said:
BertBert said:
Failing that, you might need someone with a Landy!
And that's where it can get fun on very steep hills as I found out once when I needed to do the following before stopping as lack of grip would have prevented me starting off again -Gearbox into netural
double declutch into low box
gearbox into 2nd
& carry on.
Bert
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