Just Had My First IAM Observed Drive...
Discussion
And it was great! Just one point I'd like clarification on from the Advanced Drivers of PH:
- Approaching, say, a tight-ish (third gear) bend in fifth gear, I would have in the past approached it on the brakes and then changed down into fourth and then third before releasing brake pressure and turning into the bend. My observer suggested that I should approach a bend like this by leaving it in fifth gear, braking to the desired cornering speed and then changing down into the appropriate gear (third) after releasing all pressure off the brake pedal. His argument for this does make sense - it minimises gear changes (and thus gearbox wear, time with one hand on the wheel and does not unbalance the car so much), but to me the engine braking achieved by changing down through the gears more than compensates for the gearbox wear with less strain on the brakes. The time with just one hand on the wheel is negligible and the car would not be destabilised with nice, smooth or heel-and-toe downshifts. What are others' thoughts on this? It feels unnatural for me!
BGOL is probably the most annoying part the IAM course, in fact I didn't avoid it totally in my IAM test and still passed, although I do agree with block changing.
Just as an example, even the IAM say there's no need to avoid BGOL when going down hill (as the car would obviously accelerate when shifting), proving just how unnecessary it is.
If it were me though, I'd probably change from 5th to 3rd using rev matching, then use engine braking (which would obviously be quite strong in 3rd at "5th gear speeds"), then add some (foot) braking to modulate the deceleration and show the brake lights if there was anyone behind me.
Just as an example, even the IAM say there's no need to avoid BGOL when going down hill (as the car would obviously accelerate when shifting), proving just how unnecessary it is.
If it were me though, I'd probably change from 5th to 3rd using rev matching, then use engine braking (which would obviously be quite strong in 3rd at "5th gear speeds"), then add some (foot) braking to modulate the deceleration and show the brake lights if there was anyone behind me.
vonhosen said:
If he is getting good results doing it the way he is, why make him change for change sake ?
Because there might be a better way?Changing down through the gears is a complete waste of time and effort, but shouldn't cause any real issues at pottering speeds. Do things a bit quicker though, and I suspect this method will offer noticeably less control.
Serious question to Von: if one of your trainees was changing down sequentially on the approach to every hazard, even when making progress using exemptions, would you not suggest they consider another method?
davepoth said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
What is cheaper to replace; worn out brakes or worn out gear box? 
Very true. Anybody with a synchromesh gearbox says they H & T all the way through the box on the road for any reason except "it sounds cool" is deluded. 
Bacon Is Proof said:
davepoth said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
What is cheaper to replace; worn out brakes or worn out gear box?
Very true. Anybody with a synchromesh gearbox says they H & T all the way through the box on the road for any reason except "it sounds cool" is deluded. S. Gonzales Esq. said:
vonhosen said:
If he is getting good results doing it the way he is, why make him change for change sake ?
Because there might be a better way?Changing down through the gears is a complete waste of time and effort, but shouldn't cause any real issues at pottering speeds. Do things a bit quicker though, and I suspect this method will offer noticeably less control.
Serious question to Von: if one of your trainees was changing down sequentially on the approach to every hazard, even when making progress using exemptions, would you not suggest they consider another method?
It's his first IAM drive & I seriously doubt that the most beneficial thing he could add to his driving at this stage is brake gear separation, yet it now appears to be in high consciousness & a main focus. If he isn't experiencing problems because of going down through the box, that's an awful waste IMHO.
On topic for a moment, I'm not sure this is so much about brake/gear overlap as it is about eliminating unnecessary gear changes. If you're used to habitually changing down through the gears then it'll take a little while to get used to not doing it, but I usually suggest to Associates that they try something for a while before deciding whether or not it has any benefits for them. In any case, it's good to hear that the OP enjoyed the rest of his first run.
Say for example that someone always rests their left hand on the gear lever on straights. They're happy doing it, and are quite able to maintain a steady course with one hand so that technique works for them. What happens though on that very rare occasion when something unexpected happens and they need to steer rapidly and accurately to the left? Surely two hands symmetrically placed on the wheel is empirically better than one, even if the student finds it less comfortable?
vonhosen said:
If he is interested in improving his driving he should concentrate on finding & tuning what he can get the best consistent reliable results with, rather than conforming to a stylised ideal prescribed by others. It's the reliable outcomes that matter, not the method with which they are obtained.
Von - I'm honestly trying to get my head around this, so please bear with me here. From this and what you've said previously, there's no suggestion / acknowledgment that any particular technique is ever inherently superior.Say for example that someone always rests their left hand on the gear lever on straights. They're happy doing it, and are quite able to maintain a steady course with one hand so that technique works for them. What happens though on that very rare occasion when something unexpected happens and they need to steer rapidly and accurately to the left? Surely two hands symmetrically placed on the wheel is empirically better than one, even if the student finds it less comfortable?
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
On topic for a moment, I'm not sure this is so much about brake/gear overlap as it is about eliminating unnecessary gear changes. If you're used to habitually changing down through the gears then it'll take a little while to get used to not doing it, but I usually suggest to Associates that they try something for a while before deciding whether or not it has any benefits for them. In any case, it's good to hear that the OP enjoyed the rest of his first run.
Positives & negatives can be offered for doing either, which someone will choose will depend on their priorities, which suits their purpose & which gives them best performance. I personally (for instance) don't worry much about wear & tear on the gearbox through smooth gear changes. It's so small as to not worry about for me, I haven't worn a gearbox out yet.S. Gonzales Esq. said:
vonhosen said:
If he is interested in improving his driving he should concentrate on finding & tuning what he can get the best consistent reliable results with, rather than conforming to a stylised ideal prescribed by others. It's the reliable outcomes that matter, not the method with which they are obtained.
Von - I'm honestly trying to get my head around this, so please bear with me here. From this and what you've said previously, there's no suggestion / acknowledgment that any particular technique is ever inherently superior.S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Say for example that someone always rests their left hand on the gear lever on straights. They're happy doing it, and are quite able to maintain a steady course with one hand so that technique works for them. What happens though on that very rare occasion when something unexpected happens and they need to steer rapidly and accurately to the left? Surely two hands symmetrically placed on the wheel is empirically better than one, even if the student finds it less comfortable?
Telling them they shouldn't leave a hand on the lever won't make them change the behaviour long term unless they see a need/benefit in it. Driving is very much about successfully managing risks & the more important skill is knowing/predicting when you are most likely to need both hands & having them at an appropriate place on the wheel to steer it effectively when needed. I'd encourage them to look at the evidence of how often things happen that they didn't realistically predict & in there they may find the information they need to prioritise a strategy to deal with any short fall.
It used to be the case that overlapping of brake and gears was absolutely forbidden , nowadays things are a bit more flexible and I was interested to note when out recently with a couple of instructors from Tulliallan that they now teach overlapping brakes and gears under certain circumstances .
I would still only have the one gearchange for a single hazard , although academic as I mostly drive automatic these days .
I would still only have the one gearchange for a single hazard , although academic as I mostly drive automatic these days .
Bacon Is Proof said:
From your appalling example of driving in the other thread that you started, I'd be working on your attitude and driving theory before complicating matters with different physical techniques.
If this forum was only ever used for people to chat about their good driving, then it wouldnt be much cop now, would it? I brought it up because i realised i made a mistake! S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Changing down through the gears is a complete waste of time and effort, but shouldn't cause any real issues at pottering speeds. Do things a bit quicker though, and I suspect this method will offer noticeably less control.
What is so wrong with being in the right gear at the right time? What happens on the rare occasion when acceleration can be used to remove yourself from a dangerous position on the road, due to unexpected circumstances?
David87 said:
And it was great! Just one point I'd like clarification on from the Advanced Drivers of PH:
By releasing the brake pedal before changing gear also allows the car to become 'balanced' before the gear change is done- Approaching, say, a tight-ish (third gear) bend in fifth gear, I would have in the past approached it on the brakes and then changed down into fourth and then third before releasing brake pressure and turning into the bend. My observer suggested that I should approach a bend like this by leaving it in fifth gear, braking to the desired cornering speed and then changing down into the appropriate gear (third) after releasing all pressure off the brake pedal. His argument for this does make sense - it minimises gear changes (and thus gearbox wear, time with one hand on the wheel and does not unbalance the car so much), but to me the engine braking achieved by changing down through the gears more than compensates for the gearbox wear with less strain on the brakes. The time with just one hand on the wheel is negligible and the car would not be destabilised with nice, smooth or heel-and-toe downshifts. What are others' thoughts on this? It feels unnatural for me!
It also allows more time and space for safer secondary braking should the need ever arise
Bacon Is Proof said:
What is so wrong with being in the right gear at the right time?
What happens on the rare occasion when acceleration can be used to remove yourself from a dangerous position on the road, due to unexpected circumstances?
In this specific instance of a third gear corner after a fifth gear straight, exactly when is fourth the most appropriate gear?What happens on the rare occasion when acceleration can be used to remove yourself from a dangerous position on the road, due to unexpected circumstances?
Also, when entering a bend or other loss of vision it's much more likely you'd need to brake to avoid trouble, rather than accelerate. In either case, if something happens when the OP is mid-change with the clutch down then he's no better off.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
What is so wrong with being in the right gear at the right time?
What happens on the rare occasion when acceleration can be used to remove yourself from a dangerous position on the road, due to unexpected circumstances?
In this specific instance of a third gear corner after a fifth gear straight, exactly when is fourth the most appropriate gear?What happens on the rare occasion when acceleration can be used to remove yourself from a dangerous position on the road, due to unexpected circumstances?
Also, when entering a bend or other loss of vision it's much more likely you'd need to brake to avoid trouble, rather than accelerate. In either case, if something happens when the OP is mid-change with the clutch down then he's no better off.
I'm also not convinced that overlapping offers less control, especially when doing things a bit quicker. To complete braking, fully come off the pedal and then change gear will take longer than braking and changing gear at the same time.
Not that I want to give the impression that I drive hurriedly because I don't, but I believe the phrase making progress is often encouraged.
There are odd occasions when braking and changing gear at the same time may be necessary but that is usually done at speeds of less than 20 mph - a downhill tight left turn with another too close behind might be one instance
What is the SAFEST way to be braking - is it with one or two hands on the wheel?
Advanced driving gives the driver SAFER options to consider but that is NOT to say that other methods are UNSAFE
Progress/speed (even in applying the controls) is done in the SAFEST way possible but that may not be the fastest way of doing it
The driver is left to decide which is the better option to use and what to trade off in regard to doing it safety or quickly
Doing it quickly will usually be less safe than it could be
What is the SAFEST way to be braking - is it with one or two hands on the wheel?
Advanced driving gives the driver SAFER options to consider but that is NOT to say that other methods are UNSAFE
Progress/speed (even in applying the controls) is done in the SAFEST way possible but that may not be the fastest way of doing it
The driver is left to decide which is the better option to use and what to trade off in regard to doing it safety or quickly
Doing it quickly will usually be less safe than it could be
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff