Out For My Third Drive
Discussion
I've now been out for my third drive. On the whole it seems to be going well, my progress card is full of B+ and A's but.....I've been questioning some of the things I've been told and it has not gone down well, twice eliciting the response "You seem to know it all, why are you doing this?"
Mirrors:
I was informed that I was not using my nearside mirror when positioning for a right-hander (out on a country NSL). This is correct, I wasn't. I explained that as I was frequently consulting the rear view mirror I knew exactly what was alongside: nothing. The observer's response was then to ask why the mirror was there. I replied "So that it may be used when required".
Steering:
It was noted that I was "See-sawing" when cornering. It was explained this was not allowed and I would fail if I did that on the test. I attempted to debate this to no avail and ended up stating that I would ask the examiner prior to the test for his view on this and would do what he expected of me.
Use of the road:
On a number of occasions on the NSL country road I crossed the dotted white line to either straighten a series of curves or get an extended view, at all times with a clear view of the road ahead. I was told this was not allowed and again, this would result in a failure. I accepted that but was interested in the rationale. At first I was told it was unsafe. I therefore responded that overtaking must also be unsafe, shouldn't that also "not be allowed"? The "unsafe" comment was then withdrawn but no logical explanation was forthcoming. It is simply a case of "not allowed". Problem here is I need to understand why.
Now it may well be that I am in the wrong on all counts here and I'm sure that if I am the experts here will be able to easily convince me.
To add some balance, there were other criticisms of my driving that were perfectly valid and I need to work on these.
Mirrors:
I was informed that I was not using my nearside mirror when positioning for a right-hander (out on a country NSL). This is correct, I wasn't. I explained that as I was frequently consulting the rear view mirror I knew exactly what was alongside: nothing. The observer's response was then to ask why the mirror was there. I replied "So that it may be used when required".
Steering:
It was noted that I was "See-sawing" when cornering. It was explained this was not allowed and I would fail if I did that on the test. I attempted to debate this to no avail and ended up stating that I would ask the examiner prior to the test for his view on this and would do what he expected of me.
Use of the road:
On a number of occasions on the NSL country road I crossed the dotted white line to either straighten a series of curves or get an extended view, at all times with a clear view of the road ahead. I was told this was not allowed and again, this would result in a failure. I accepted that but was interested in the rationale. At first I was told it was unsafe. I therefore responded that overtaking must also be unsafe, shouldn't that also "not be allowed"? The "unsafe" comment was then withdrawn but no logical explanation was forthcoming. It is simply a case of "not allowed". Problem here is I need to understand why.
Now it may well be that I am in the wrong on all counts here and I'm sure that if I am the experts here will be able to easily convince me.
To add some balance, there were other criticisms of my driving that were perfectly valid and I need to work on these.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Before it all kicks off, could you clarify what you mean by 'see-sawing'? Are you referring to fixed-grip steering (which bizarrely I've also heard described as 'motorcycling'), or something else?
Yes indeed, originally I had "fixed input" in brackets and I took it out thinking everyone here will know what that means. 
Fixed input steering = placing the hands on wheel usually at the quarter to three position and then, without moving the hands, turning the steering wheel
The trick to using this for general road driving is not to allow either hand to a pass the 12 o clock position
If a hand is needed to go past the 12 o clock then pull push is the safer option
ROG
IAM senior observer - Leicester group
The trick to using this for general road driving is not to allow either hand to a pass the 12 o clock position
If a hand is needed to go past the 12 o clock then pull push is the safer option
ROG
IAM senior observer - Leicester group
The IAM group or at least this observer you are training with need sorting out pronto
YOU have the choice of having a different observer so I would ask for one NOW
I would not do another drive with your current observer as they need some serious training
As an IAM associate you can access the IAM discussion forum with your number
You might also like to look at or join the ADUK site
The link to those are in this PH sticky http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
YOU have the choice of having a different observer so I would ask for one NOW
I would not do another drive with your current observer as they need some serious training
As an IAM associate you can access the IAM discussion forum with your number
You might also like to look at or join the ADUK site
The link to those are in this PH sticky http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by R0G on Saturday 11th June 14:41
tulloch said:
I.A.M. I'd rather not say which group, at least not in public.
We publically name such groups in those other forums so that others and those who can do something about it can act before other associates get the same treatmentThere will always be cases where an associate and an observer will not be comfortable with each other for various reasons but the advice should be virtually the same across all the groups and in your case this is clearly not happening
Edited by R0G on Saturday 11th June 14:55
R0G said:
I would not do another drive with your current observer as they need some serious training
+1I had some experience with an IAM group quite a few years ago whose whole ethos seemed to be 'do it my way or you won't pass the test'. In fact they were the exact words of their chairman (or chief instructor or whatever other title he chose for himself) when describing the role of the observer. Needless to say, I didn't stick around. Incidentally, one old boy in the group (great watching him reverse in the car park
) referred to fixed input steering as aero-planning. Now that was a fun few hours on a Sunday morning with him in the car. At least his comments on steering broke up the monotonous litany of 'what was the last sign post we past'.Generally the observers advice is standard stuff from the sound of it, but you are at liberty to change if you want to of course
are you giving a commentary?
Take the white line crossing for instance. If its clearly in your plan and included in your commentary in advance and safe etc. then it is much more likely to be accepted (by the examiner even if not the observer) than if you "just cross it."
are you giving a commentary?
Take the white line crossing for instance. If its clearly in your plan and included in your commentary in advance and safe etc. then it is much more likely to be accepted (by the examiner even if not the observer) than if you "just cross it."
Hi Tulloch,
See if this helps:
Is it possible your observer was alluding to a tendency on your part to constantly correct your steering through the bend? This can lead to continuous backwards and forwards adjustment of the steering wheel, hence the term see'sawing. The cause is usually to be found in not looking far enough ahead in to the bend and not using limit point technique correctly. In very simple terms -if your eyes focus on a point half way in to the bend and you set the steering accordingly you will invariably then have to adjust your steering when you then re-focus further in to the bend. I May not have explained that too well but, the idea is to take in the whole of the bend with your eyes and then set your "single-input" (ie. single input, not see'sawing) steering, using "fixed-input" hands on the wheel, according to the sweep of the bend. You won't get it 100% right every time but with practice the few occasions that a small steering adjustment is necessary it should be almost imperceptible.
On the other hand if the line was simply lane separation ...then it's probably just another silly comment on his part.
Hope this helps to clarify your thinking.
I agree with everyone else who suggests that you talk to the group's Chief Observer about this.
I know it's all very confusing when you start this advanced driving thingy but, it sort of becomes clearer as you progress ..or, maybe it doesn't, who knows? Advanced driving - nothing is black and white, its all just shades of grey.
See if this helps:
tulloch said:
Observer says - "You seem to know it all, why are you doing this?"
Heaven help us all - a very silly commenttulloch said:
Mirrors:
The observer's response was then to ask why the mirror was there. I replied "So that it may be used when required".
Ha, Ha, Ha, I like your response. Your observer doesn't seem to have a particularly sympathetic style of coaching.The observer's response was then to ask why the mirror was there. I replied "So that it may be used when required".
tulloch said:
Steering:
It was noted that I was "See-sawing" when cornering.
It was noted that I was "See-sawing" when cornering.
Is it possible your observer was alluding to a tendency on your part to constantly correct your steering through the bend? This can lead to continuous backwards and forwards adjustment of the steering wheel, hence the term see'sawing. The cause is usually to be found in not looking far enough ahead in to the bend and not using limit point technique correctly. In very simple terms -if your eyes focus on a point half way in to the bend and you set the steering accordingly you will invariably then have to adjust your steering when you then re-focus further in to the bend. I May not have explained that too well but, the idea is to take in the whole of the bend with your eyes and then set your "single-input" (ie. single input, not see'sawing) steering, using "fixed-input" hands on the wheel, according to the sweep of the bend. You won't get it 100% right every time but with practice the few occasions that a small steering adjustment is necessary it should be almost imperceptible.
tulloch said:
See'sawing - It was explained this was not allowed and I would fail if I did that on the test.
If his remark referred to see'sawing as described above - he should have encouraged you to try and eliminate the problem. If, however, he was talking about "fixed input" steering per se - then it's just another silly comment on his part.tulloch said:
Use of the road:
On a number of occasions on the NSL country road I crossed the dotted white line to either straighten a series of curves or get an extended view, at all times with a clear view of the road ahead. I was told this was not allowed and again, this would result in a failure.
Firstly, you need to ask yourself, was the "dotted" line a hazard line (ie. the line is longer than the gap), or a lane separation line (ie. the other way round)? If it was the former you need to ask yourself ...am I sure it was totally safe? Although you appeared to have the vision, was there anything that posed a potential threat, a concealed entrance for example. Was there anything that you might have missed, something that caused the road engineers to put down the hazard lines, but which you didn't see. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't, only you can tell.On a number of occasions on the NSL country road I crossed the dotted white line to either straighten a series of curves or get an extended view, at all times with a clear view of the road ahead. I was told this was not allowed and again, this would result in a failure.
On the other hand if the line was simply lane separation ...then it's probably just another silly comment on his part.
Hope this helps to clarify your thinking.
I agree with everyone else who suggests that you talk to the group's Chief Observer about this.
I know it's all very confusing when you start this advanced driving thingy but, it sort of becomes clearer as you progress ..or, maybe it doesn't, who knows? Advanced driving - nothing is black and white, its all just shades of grey.
Another IAM Observer here to whom the position you state on all those issues would be entirely satisfactory. You would not be marked down by any of our local examiners for doing what you say you did.
On steering, fixed input for movements which do not require the hands to pass 12 o clock is positively encouraged in Roadcraft (point this out to your Observer, if you go back to him), and helps good sensitivity and control for higher speed driving.
On crossing the centre line, the IAM line is not to positively encourage crossing the centre line, but to accept it if done safely and to advantage.
You seem to feel that you received some worthwile input from your Observer. You might consider giving him more of a chance - take advantage of input which you find convincing, and leave what you don't.
On steering, fixed input for movements which do not require the hands to pass 12 o clock is positively encouraged in Roadcraft (point this out to your Observer, if you go back to him), and helps good sensitivity and control for higher speed driving.
On crossing the centre line, the IAM line is not to positively encourage crossing the centre line, but to accept it if done safely and to advantage.
You seem to feel that you received some worthwile input from your Observer. You might consider giving him more of a chance - take advantage of input which you find convincing, and leave what you don't.
Hmmm... it's getting increasingly difficult to defend the actions of this Observer as we hear more about things, so let's concentrate on filling in the gaps in the information you're getting.
1. Mirror use - as a general principle, you'll want to check your mirror or blind spot before moving the car around on the road. If you're considering a noticeable sideways movement, then getting into the habit of looking at the space you'll be moving into is something you really should be doing. Whether you use the appropriate side mirror or turn your head to look matters less, but I'd say you can't just rely on occasional rear view mirror checks.
2. Steering - this is b
ks. Fixed-grip for an eighth of a turn of the wheel (and possibly up to a quarter turn) isn't a problem, and could even be desirable.
3. Offsiding (using the 'wrong' side of the road) has the potential to be a Very Bad Thing, so is not generally taught by the IAM. Many Observers won't be comfortable with it, but they should be aware of it and know that Examiners won't be phased by it if it's done correctly.
Ask yourself if these criteria are always met when you cross the white line:
• Can anyone see me and potentially misunderstand / react badly to what I'm doing? (Includes following traffic.)
• If someone I can't yet see does appear, can I get back on the correct side before they notice me?
• Am I doing it to maintain an existing view, or to gain a new view (fishing)? You can't do it to gain view because you'll be moving into an area that you haven't seen it's safe to enter.
• Do it to gain stability, but not speed. If you need the different line to be safe at that speed, then you won't be able to sacrifice the position if things change.
On a happier note, would you like to share with us the bits that are going well? Have you noticed improvements in your observation, smoothness and progress?
1. Mirror use - as a general principle, you'll want to check your mirror or blind spot before moving the car around on the road. If you're considering a noticeable sideways movement, then getting into the habit of looking at the space you'll be moving into is something you really should be doing. Whether you use the appropriate side mirror or turn your head to look matters less, but I'd say you can't just rely on occasional rear view mirror checks.
2. Steering - this is b
ks. Fixed-grip for an eighth of a turn of the wheel (and possibly up to a quarter turn) isn't a problem, and could even be desirable.3. Offsiding (using the 'wrong' side of the road) has the potential to be a Very Bad Thing, so is not generally taught by the IAM. Many Observers won't be comfortable with it, but they should be aware of it and know that Examiners won't be phased by it if it's done correctly.
Ask yourself if these criteria are always met when you cross the white line:
• Can anyone see me and potentially misunderstand / react badly to what I'm doing? (Includes following traffic.)
• If someone I can't yet see does appear, can I get back on the correct side before they notice me?
• Am I doing it to maintain an existing view, or to gain a new view (fishing)? You can't do it to gain view because you'll be moving into an area that you haven't seen it's safe to enter.
• Do it to gain stability, but not speed. If you need the different line to be safe at that speed, then you won't be able to sacrifice the position if things change.
On a happier note, would you like to share with us the bits that are going well? Have you noticed improvements in your observation, smoothness and progress?
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Mirror use - as a general principle, you'll want to check your mirror or blind spot before moving the car around on the road. If you're considering a noticeable sideways movement, then getting into the habit of looking at the space you'll be moving into is something you really should be doing. Whether you use the appropriate side mirror or turn your head to look matters less, but I'd say you can't just rely on occasional rear view mirror checks.
tulloch said:
Mirrors:
I was informed that I was not using my nearside mirror when positioning for a right-hander (out on a country NSL). This is correct, I wasn't. I explained that as I was frequently consulting the rear view mirror I knew exactly what was alongside: nothing. The observer's response was then to ask why the mirror was there. I replied "So that it may be used when required".
So yes, when making progress on open rural roads do make sure to check the left mirror for any undertaking cyclists. Just because you have been traveling at or near to the upper limit for some time this does not rule out the possibility that a cyclist may have unexpectedly caught you up.I was informed that I was not using my nearside mirror when positioning for a right-hander (out on a country NSL). This is correct, I wasn't. I explained that as I was frequently consulting the rear view mirror I knew exactly what was alongside: nothing. The observer's response was then to ask why the mirror was there. I replied "So that it may be used when required".
I prefer the OPs "So that it may be used when required" rather than developing another habit.
7mike said:
...rather than developing another habit.
I evidently have less faith in my own ability than you do in yours, so I like to have some things that I can do every time without conscious effort. That way when I'm traveling at a speed that requires my full attention, I know I'm not going to miss out an important action because I'm concentrating hard on something else.As I said, my comment was conditional on the OP making a noticeable change of position. You may not think it important to always look at a bit of space before committing to moving into it, but it's just something I like to do. It appears that one man's unnecessary habit can be another's useful routine.
Edited by S. Gonzales Esq. on Saturday 11th June 23:57
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
I evidently have less faith in my own ability than you do in yours, so I like to have some things that I can do every time without conscious effort. That way when I'm traveling at a speed that requires my full attention, I know I'm not going to miss out an important action because I'm concentrating hard on something else.
As I said, my comment was conditional on the OP making a noticeable change of position. You may not think it important to always look at a bit of space before committing to moving into it, but it's just something I like to do. It appears that one man's unnecessary habit can be another's useful routine.
Interesting contrast with the IAM pov on use of signalsAs I said, my comment was conditional on the OP making a noticeable change of position. You may not think it important to always look at a bit of space before committing to moving into it, but it's just something I like to do. It appears that one man's unnecessary habit can be another's useful routine.
Edited by S. Gonzales Esq. on Saturday 11th June 23:57
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