Gear Change - Opinions Please
Discussion
I'm out on my first observed drive. I've done my homework; I've read Roadcraft, the IAM Manual and watched the Roadcraft DVD and have been practicing the system. I'm approaching a set of lights at red in the left lane of two and there is one stopped at the lights in my lane. Red has been on for some time. I brake early and take second some distance behind the stopped one in anticipation of imminent green. If it changes I should be able to drive through. The light doesn't change and I have to stop.
My observer explains that I should not change down the box as I slow down, I should just have braked to a halt selecting neutral at the appropriate time. I'm thinking there was nothing wrong with what I did.
On another occasion I slipped it out of gear too early and coasted to a halt. Guilty as charged, no problem there. He then explained that as I was in neutral I would have been unable to respond to a situation that required me to apply power. Agreed. However, I was of the opinion that if I wanted to be ready for such a situation, should it arise, I'd rather be in second than fourth or fifth at that low speed. Apparently that would not be acceptable on the test.
I'd be grateful for some expert opinons on these two scenarios. I ask not because I doubt my observer but I know that many situations are not black and white and opinions may vary across the various groups.
My observer explains that I should not change down the box as I slow down, I should just have braked to a halt selecting neutral at the appropriate time. I'm thinking there was nothing wrong with what I did.
On another occasion I slipped it out of gear too early and coasted to a halt. Guilty as charged, no problem there. He then explained that as I was in neutral I would have been unable to respond to a situation that required me to apply power. Agreed. However, I was of the opinion that if I wanted to be ready for such a situation, should it arise, I'd rather be in second than fourth or fifth at that low speed. Apparently that would not be acceptable on the test.
I'd be grateful for some expert opinons on these two scenarios. I ask not because I doubt my observer but I know that many situations are not black and white and opinions may vary across the various groups.
The observer is correct. As far as the system of car control is concerned, whilst the lights remain red, you continue to slow on the approach. You will then either end up stationary, (handbrake, neutral) or, the lights will change to green and you select a gear for your speed and continue.
Yes and no.Â
For the 'system' you don't downshift when coming to a stop, you should stay in gear and if that's a high gear there will be an element of coasting as you come to a stop (but by dipping the clutch not going into neutral, until you have stopped and put on the handbrake).Â
If the situation changes and you now want to drive/accelerate before you have stopped you can use rev matching to bring the engine speed inline with road speed for a lower gear and off you go.Â
The flipside of this is using observations and timing to avoid stopping at all, ie by timing your approach by adjusting speed and probably gear so that you don't plan to stop (but still could), which is the approach you were taking.Â
You can only really do the latter when you can make clear observations of timings which can be hit and miss with traffic lights unless you are familiar with the timing on them. Even if the other lights change to red there may be a delay, pedestrian crossing etc which means yours are staying red longer than you think.Â
Of course not every situation will fit clearly into each category which is where your commentary will help to explain why you are doing certain things.Â
For the 'system' you don't downshift when coming to a stop, you should stay in gear and if that's a high gear there will be an element of coasting as you come to a stop (but by dipping the clutch not going into neutral, until you have stopped and put on the handbrake).Â
If the situation changes and you now want to drive/accelerate before you have stopped you can use rev matching to bring the engine speed inline with road speed for a lower gear and off you go.Â
The flipside of this is using observations and timing to avoid stopping at all, ie by timing your approach by adjusting speed and probably gear so that you don't plan to stop (but still could), which is the approach you were taking.Â
You can only really do the latter when you can make clear observations of timings which can be hit and miss with traffic lights unless you are familiar with the timing on them. Even if the other lights change to red there may be a delay, pedestrian crossing etc which means yours are staying red longer than you think.Â
Of course not every situation will fit clearly into each category which is where your commentary will help to explain why you are doing certain things.Â
Observer is correct IMO. If Amber shows you have plenty of time to take a gear. Coasting is bad full stop in the system.
Once you get into giving commentary, you might find it all fits together better, I did
Just enjoy it and don't get hung up on every little mistake - we all make them
Once you get into giving commentary, you might find it all fits together better, I did
Just enjoy it and don't get hung up on every little mistake - we all make them
The observer has just contradicted himself there. In the first instance he told you off for selecting an appropriate gear for the speed should you need to pull away again, and in the second incident, whilst telling you off for slowing in neutral (fair enough), his reason was that you should have been in an approprate gear! 
It sounds like he's learnt too many "rules" without thinking about what they're there to achieve.
This is one area where I disagree with "the system", as I'm sure many on here know. Whilst slowing I always make sure I'm in an appropriate gear for the speed. I do this for the following reasons:
1) At 35mph in 6th my BMW is doing 1,000rpm (my Dad's is doing 40mph!). It'll start to splutter and fight to go faster to avoid stalling much below 30mph (it can't be good to force an engine down below it's idle speed), and I believe it's wrong to coast from 30 to a halt. My Elise isn't far off those figures, although slightly shorter geared. Far better for the car and for stability to be in a more suitable gear at that point. I'd probably go 6th, 4th, 2nd or something like that.
2) Should you need to change direction in an emergency or simply to avoid someone doing something unexpected, you need revs for control. In a petrol car, you're really talking more than about 2,000rpm to have any reasonable control over the car; in my diesel, perhaps 1500rpm. This isn't possible if you slow in top all the way (see point 1).
3) What about situations like the first incident above? i.e. progress, rather than stability. The situation up ahead can change, and I believe an advanced driver should go with the flow, avoid annoying people around them and maintain progress; ergo pull away again as soon as they can. If the lights go green and you're doing a massive blip from 6th to 2nd to pull away again (coasting all the while - cringe..) it's just shoddy driving - a quick blip from 4th or 3rd to 2nd and away you go - far neater, less distracting for the driver and less distracting for the passengers too. My diesel turbo would really struggle to blip from 6th to 2nd because you'd need the turbo to do it; it would take at least 2 seconds to perform, and you'd be coasting the whole time with people behind you waiting to go. A blip of 500-1000rpm for one gearchange is performed instantly and without hassle, plus it's less distracting because it's the same as every other blip you do - we're not all Senna (recalling the 6th to 2nd blipping he used to do on street circuits).
Now, as we've all agreed on here many times before, "the system" was designed as a cost and time effective way to improve the average person's driving (and, when taken in a different light, the driving of traffic officers). Most people who really care about their driving will want to go beyond this standard, which it is not that difficult to do. In fact, I've met a couple of guys from this forum whose driving has gone way beyond the basics of the system and is very accomplished indeed. One of the techniques that takes a driver beyond this basic IAM level is heel and toe, which of course allows interim gears whilst performing smooth constant braking. I'm certain that the only reason these interim gears are not part of the system is because to achieve smooth constant braking one would need heel and toe to get interim gears. For the H&T driver, interim gears present no problem at all, and being able to satisfy points 1 to 3 above leads to a smoother and safer drive.
I know that post will annoy a lot of people, but it is just my opinion. Nevertheless, it's something I've given a lot of thought to, and I always make sure I'm in a good enough gear for avoidance, cornering, or a changing situation up ahead.
It sounds like he's learnt too many "rules" without thinking about what they're there to achieve.This is one area where I disagree with "the system", as I'm sure many on here know. Whilst slowing I always make sure I'm in an appropriate gear for the speed. I do this for the following reasons:
1) At 35mph in 6th my BMW is doing 1,000rpm (my Dad's is doing 40mph!). It'll start to splutter and fight to go faster to avoid stalling much below 30mph (it can't be good to force an engine down below it's idle speed), and I believe it's wrong to coast from 30 to a halt. My Elise isn't far off those figures, although slightly shorter geared. Far better for the car and for stability to be in a more suitable gear at that point. I'd probably go 6th, 4th, 2nd or something like that.
2) Should you need to change direction in an emergency or simply to avoid someone doing something unexpected, you need revs for control. In a petrol car, you're really talking more than about 2,000rpm to have any reasonable control over the car; in my diesel, perhaps 1500rpm. This isn't possible if you slow in top all the way (see point 1).
3) What about situations like the first incident above? i.e. progress, rather than stability. The situation up ahead can change, and I believe an advanced driver should go with the flow, avoid annoying people around them and maintain progress; ergo pull away again as soon as they can. If the lights go green and you're doing a massive blip from 6th to 2nd to pull away again (coasting all the while - cringe..) it's just shoddy driving - a quick blip from 4th or 3rd to 2nd and away you go - far neater, less distracting for the driver and less distracting for the passengers too. My diesel turbo would really struggle to blip from 6th to 2nd because you'd need the turbo to do it; it would take at least 2 seconds to perform, and you'd be coasting the whole time with people behind you waiting to go. A blip of 500-1000rpm for one gearchange is performed instantly and without hassle, plus it's less distracting because it's the same as every other blip you do - we're not all Senna (recalling the 6th to 2nd blipping he used to do on street circuits).
Now, as we've all agreed on here many times before, "the system" was designed as a cost and time effective way to improve the average person's driving (and, when taken in a different light, the driving of traffic officers). Most people who really care about their driving will want to go beyond this standard, which it is not that difficult to do. In fact, I've met a couple of guys from this forum whose driving has gone way beyond the basics of the system and is very accomplished indeed. One of the techniques that takes a driver beyond this basic IAM level is heel and toe, which of course allows interim gears whilst performing smooth constant braking. I'm certain that the only reason these interim gears are not part of the system is because to achieve smooth constant braking one would need heel and toe to get interim gears. For the H&T driver, interim gears present no problem at all, and being able to satisfy points 1 to 3 above leads to a smoother and safer drive.
I know that post will annoy a lot of people, but it is just my opinion. Nevertheless, it's something I've given a lot of thought to, and I always make sure I'm in a good enough gear for avoidance, cornering, or a changing situation up ahead.
I agree rob that in the real world you will do what suits the situation/vehicle which may include downshifting to help the brakes, staying in correct/relevant gear, h&t to maintain revs while braking etc, but if you want to pass your advanced driving test you will have to learn and apply the system.
If that means learning something you don't agree with then that is still a good thing because it means 1) you are able to adapt your driving style to suit differing situations and 2) you have taken the time to think about and come to a decision on how you drive and why, rather than just winging it as most do.
If that means learning something you don't agree with then that is still a good thing because it means 1) you are able to adapt your driving style to suit differing situations and 2) you have taken the time to think about and come to a decision on how you drive and why, rather than just winging it as most do.
tulloch said:
I'm out on my first observed drive. I've done my homework; I've read Roadcraft, the IAM Manual and watched the Roadcraft DVD and have been practicing the system. I'm approaching a set of lights at red in the left lane of two and there is one stopped at the lights in my lane. Red has been on for some time. I brake early and take second some distance behind the stopped one in anticipation of imminent green. If it changes I should be able to drive through. The light doesn't change and I have to stop.
My observer explains that I should not change down the box as I slow down, I should just have braked to a halt selecting neutral at the appropriate time. I'm thinking there was nothing wrong with what I did.
On another occasion I slipped it out of gear too early and coasted to a halt. Guilty as charged, no problem there. He then explained that as I was in neutral I would have been unable to respond to a situation that required me to apply power. Agreed. However, I was of the opinion that if I wanted to be ready for such a situation, should it arise, I'd rather be in second than fourth or fifth at that low speed. Apparently that would not be acceptable on the test.
I'd be grateful for some expert opinons on these two scenarios. I ask not because I doubt my observer but I know that many situations are not black and white and opinions may vary across the various groups.
The club you seek to join will mark you by their rules. They don't have a monopoly on what's possible or even right, it's just the world viewed through their particular lens.My observer explains that I should not change down the box as I slow down, I should just have braked to a halt selecting neutral at the appropriate time. I'm thinking there was nothing wrong with what I did.
On another occasion I slipped it out of gear too early and coasted to a halt. Guilty as charged, no problem there. He then explained that as I was in neutral I would have been unable to respond to a situation that required me to apply power. Agreed. However, I was of the opinion that if I wanted to be ready for such a situation, should it arise, I'd rather be in second than fourth or fifth at that low speed. Apparently that would not be acceptable on the test.
I'd be grateful for some expert opinons on these two scenarios. I ask not because I doubt my observer but I know that many situations are not black and white and opinions may vary across the various groups.
When I'm slowing for red lights (or for another reason) from a long distance, I de-clutch (starting at maybe 30 mph in 4th or 5th) and keep the clutch disengaged whilst I row down through the gears at the appropriate speeds. That way I can always take the right gear if I need it, but I'm not going through half-a-dozen unnecessary clutch operations.
You'll tend to find that bikers (or ex-bikers, as in my case) have a habit of going down through the gears in a manual-boxed car - its just habit. The difference of course in a car is that you CAN go from any gear straight into first, whereas on a bike, you have to go through each gear.
I was reprimanded for going from third, to second when approaching lights or junctions (I'm rarely above third for town speeds anyway) so for my IAM lessons and the test, I just forced myself to do as I was told. However, once I started to do this on lessons, I was also told off for coasting for the last few yards (by dipping the clutch, not selecting neutral). But when I demonstrated trying to reduce speed whilst in 4th gear, the instructor finally realised that the car would do 30mph at tickover, and therefore it was an absolute necessity to either change gear, or dip the clutch. I asked him which rule he wanted me to break - he couldn't answer.
My own interpretation of the rules tends to favour the "always be in the most appropriate gear" approach. As far as I'm concerned, being in 4th gear at 20mph is not appropriate.
I was also told that using the gearbox to decelerate (by selecting a gear that causes engine braking) was a pointless waste of clutch, and that brake pads are cheaper. I reminded him that changing gear didn't actually cause much clutch wear, and that engine braking is free, whereas brake pads cost money (lots of money, in my case)
It seems that there is a degree of interpretation involved, but I think its wrong to slavishly follow rules - there needs to be an element of consideration for the vehicle, the conditions and quite possibly, that some rules don't agree perfectly with other rules.
I was reprimanded for going from third, to second when approaching lights or junctions (I'm rarely above third for town speeds anyway) so for my IAM lessons and the test, I just forced myself to do as I was told. However, once I started to do this on lessons, I was also told off for coasting for the last few yards (by dipping the clutch, not selecting neutral). But when I demonstrated trying to reduce speed whilst in 4th gear, the instructor finally realised that the car would do 30mph at tickover, and therefore it was an absolute necessity to either change gear, or dip the clutch. I asked him which rule he wanted me to break - he couldn't answer.
My own interpretation of the rules tends to favour the "always be in the most appropriate gear" approach. As far as I'm concerned, being in 4th gear at 20mph is not appropriate.
I was also told that using the gearbox to decelerate (by selecting a gear that causes engine braking) was a pointless waste of clutch, and that brake pads are cheaper. I reminded him that changing gear didn't actually cause much clutch wear, and that engine braking is free, whereas brake pads cost money (lots of money, in my case)
It seems that there is a degree of interpretation involved, but I think its wrong to slavishly follow rules - there needs to be an element of consideration for the vehicle, the conditions and quite possibly, that some rules don't agree perfectly with other rules.
I agree with all of the above comments. The most important lesson learnt here is to think for yourself - firstly so that you can apply both rules and common sense to individual cars; and also so that you can do what is safest at any given point and, shock horror, this does sometimes mean changing the rules of 'the system'. As I said before, 'the system' is a good baseline level of improved driving beyond the level of the basic DSA test; it is not, and has never claimed to be, the absolute safest or most appropriate way to drive a car.
In the context of the Observer / Associate relationship, it sounds like your Observer said pretty much the right thing.
Taking your two situations in particular (my bold):
Next time, brake early (if following traffic allows) to extend the approach and plan to bring the car to a halt at the line. If the lights change then you take second and go, if they don't you declutch and come to a halt - simple.
People will often say 'but what if the unexpected happens and I need to accelerate?' - I'd hope that if your observation and hazard assessment is correct then this is irrelevant.
A situation is either a Hazard (actual or potential) or it's not. If you can see things then you can decide if they are or are not a hazard, and if you can't see things (dead ground, parked vehicles, concealed entrances) then you need to deal with them using The System which will probably require a lower, more responsive gear. Habitually changing down gears 'just in case' sounds like an excuse for inadequate observation or anticipation.
Interestingly, I've also spent a lot of time thinking about these matters like RobM77, but have come to differing conclusions.
Other posters have confirmed that there is scope for a range of opinions and approaches to most Advanced Driving situations. The IAM test specifies this particular way, but there's nothing to stop you deciding on something else post-test if it works for you.
Finally - your account reads like lane two was empty on the approach to the lights. If that was the case, then taking the other lane and timing your approach to take advantage of the green light is the easy way to make progress.
Taking your two situations in particular (my bold):
tulloch said:
...and take second some distance behind the stopped one in anticipation of imminent green. If it changes I should be able to drive through. The light doesn't change and I have to stop.
The intention was good, but you took a gear before you knew you needed it. Not a massive safety issue, but an unnecessary change so more time with a hand off the wheel and with the drive disengaged. Also one more opportunity to be less than smooth, and for no advantage.Next time, brake early (if following traffic allows) to extend the approach and plan to bring the car to a halt at the line. If the lights change then you take second and go, if they don't you declutch and come to a halt - simple.
tulloch said:
He then explained that as I was in neutral I would have been unable to respond to a situation that required me to apply power. Agreed. However, I was of the opinion that if I wanted to be ready for such a situation, should it arise, I'd rather be in second than fourth or fifth at that low speed.
I agree with the Observer's sentiment, but I wouldn't have explained it in this way. Being out of gear temporarily removes the option of accelerating, and also removes the control given by engine braking. Unless the engine is about to struggle with the low revs, knocking it into neutral doesn't give any benefits to compensate for these losses.People will often say 'but what if the unexpected happens and I need to accelerate?' - I'd hope that if your observation and hazard assessment is correct then this is irrelevant.
A situation is either a Hazard (actual or potential) or it's not. If you can see things then you can decide if they are or are not a hazard, and if you can't see things (dead ground, parked vehicles, concealed entrances) then you need to deal with them using The System which will probably require a lower, more responsive gear. Habitually changing down gears 'just in case' sounds like an excuse for inadequate observation or anticipation.
Interestingly, I've also spent a lot of time thinking about these matters like RobM77, but have come to differing conclusions.
Other posters have confirmed that there is scope for a range of opinions and approaches to most Advanced Driving situations. The IAM test specifies this particular way, but there's nothing to stop you deciding on something else post-test if it works for you.
Finally - your account reads like lane two was empty on the approach to the lights. If that was the case, then taking the other lane and timing your approach to take advantage of the green light is the easy way to make progress.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
The intention was good, but you took a gear before you knew you needed it. Not a massive safety issue, but an unnecessary change so more time with a hand off the wheel and with the drive disengaged. Also one more opportunity to be less than smooth, and for no advantage.
If you change gear properly then it can be perfectly smooth. And the advantage is that if the lights change then you just put your foot down, get past the person and get back into lane 1 quickly.A half decent driver usually knows if the lights are about to change, so it's barely a disadvantage changing down as most of the time the lights will change when you have decided to change down.
IMO of course.
tulloch said:
On another occasion I slipped it out of gear too early and coasted to a halt. Guilty as charged, no problem there. He then explained that as I was in neutral I would have been unable to respond to a situation that required me to apply power. Agreed. However, I was of the opinion that if I wanted to be ready for such a situation, should it arise, I'd rather be in second than fourth or fifth at that low speed. Apparently that would not be acceptable on the test.
Lots of very good thoughts expressed in this thread. One point not yet made is that examiners tend to have a deeper understanding and therefore a more flexible approach than observers. Providing what you do is safe, smooth and legal, it is unlikely 'not to be acceptable on test'. The examiner will be impressed if you discuss these issues with him intelligently, and justify whatever you decide to do.On the specifics, with reference to your first situation, I would have advised as your observer did that there was nothing to gain by taking an intermediate second gear. When and if the lights changed you would have plenty of time to make a relaxed change to second without being held up at all. If you have to stop you go straight to first. In my experience the same is true on the approach to a roundabout - you have plenty of time to take a suitable gear after making the stop/go decision. (No surprise to regular readers that I disagree with Rob about this - but I assure you Rob that I don't find your well argued posts at all annoying).
With reference to your second situation, what do you mean by 'guilty as charged'? If you declutch before the engine struggles, and keep the car under control with your foot on the brake, there is nothing to feel guilty about. I don't think it makes great odds whether you then move the gear lever straight to neutral, as you did, move the gear lever down through the gears as Flemke recommends, or as I would advise keep both hands on the wheel until you are almost stopped or you know what gear you will need to go (same advice as your observer but for different reasons). Again, I don't expect that the time taken to change to the required gear will cause you any delay whatsoever.
(BTW I don't speak for either organisation but have Rospa Gold and observe for IAM).
I think Mark's post there summarises perfectly what I was trying to say. Yes, there is a "system", but this isn't a religion and Roadcraft is not a Bible. Many drivers (Mark included) will have gone beyond this basic standard decades ago, and with the depth of their further experience understand the wider picture and the implications of different actions. If on a different day the OP had Mark as an observer then they may have had a very different conversation (as summarised in Mark's post above).
waremark said:
With reference to your second situation, what do you mean by 'guilty as charged'?
Just that my understanding was that coasting was not allowed and I had indeed been guilty of that. It's difficult to shed habits of a lifetime, like selecting neutral before applying the handbrake, push pull all the time and keeping hands on the wheel while stopped at lights. Got two weeks to practice before the next run though. Looking forward to it.Once again thanks for all the very informative posts.
tulloch said:
..... push pull all the time and keeping hands on the wheel while stopped at lights.
Your Observer sounds a bit old school.Does he have you doing pull-push all the time? Ask about using a bit of fixed grip on flowing twisty bits, or rotational for low speed stuff. As long as the steering is smooth and accurate he shouldn't care - they do like P-P because, done properly, it is a very effective way to steer.
Time at the lights can be used to relax the legs and the arms. Why does he want you to keep two hands on the wheel?
Vaux said:
Your Observer sounds a bit old school.
Does he have you doing pull-push all the time? Ask about using a bit of fixed grip on flowing twisty bits, or rotational for low speed stuff. As long as the steering is smooth and accurate he shouldn't care - they do like P-P because, done properly, it is a very effective way to steer.
Time at the lights can be used to relax the legs and the arms. Why does he want you to keep two hands on the wheel?
It's a very good point. Most driver's excuse for not keeping two hands on the wheel all the time is that it's tiring, so I'd agree that taking a break at the lights is crucial; in fact I usually stretch my legs and arms as well once I'm in neutral with the handbrake on.Does he have you doing pull-push all the time? Ask about using a bit of fixed grip on flowing twisty bits, or rotational for low speed stuff. As long as the steering is smooth and accurate he shouldn't care - they do like P-P because, done properly, it is a very effective way to steer.
Time at the lights can be used to relax the legs and the arms. Why does he want you to keep two hands on the wheel?
Vaux said:
Your Observer sounds a bit old school.
Does he have you doing pull-push all the time? Ask about using a bit of fixed grip on flowing twisty bits, or rotational for low speed stuff. As long as the steering is smooth and accurate he shouldn't care - they do like P-P because, done properly, it is a very effective way to steer.
Time at the lights can be used to relax the legs and the arms. Why does he want you to keep two hands on the wheel?
Yes, it's P-P all the time except when reversing. I did ask about fixed input on the twisty bits but I'm told it's P-P to be used. I also questioned the hands on the wheel at lights. Apparently I'm not in control of the car unless my hands are on the wheel. To be honest I'm finding this both unnatural and uncomfortable and intend to discuss it with him again.Does he have you doing pull-push all the time? Ask about using a bit of fixed grip on flowing twisty bits, or rotational for low speed stuff. As long as the steering is smooth and accurate he shouldn't care - they do like P-P because, done properly, it is a very effective way to steer.
Time at the lights can be used to relax the legs and the arms. Why does he want you to keep two hands on the wheel?
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