How do people downshift for more power without rev-matching?
Discussion
I'm sorry but the original post did not describe a blip on a downshift to me. Just look at the title of the thread, he's asking how it's possible to accelerate after downshifting without a blip.
Nobody would disagree heel and toe doesn't aid a smoother downshift, but that's not what he's asking.
Nobody would disagree heel and toe doesn't aid a smoother downshift, but that's not what he's asking.
Discendo Discimus said:
I'm sorry but the original post did not describe a blip on a downshift to me. Just look at the title of the thread, he's asking how it's possible to accelerate after downshifting without a blip.
Nobody would disagree heel and toe doesn't aid a smoother downshift, but that's not what he's asking.
A blip on the downshift is my method (which I referred to as rev matching), the question was how do others downshift without it the blip. Nobody would disagree heel and toe doesn't aid a smoother downshift, but that's not what he's asking.
Edited by DarkVeil on Wednesday 3rd July 13:49
Ken_Code said:
Seriously, invest in some advanced driving lessons
An ex-police driving instructor taught me to rev-match when changing down. It mightn’t be taught at the IAM or RoSPA entry level, but rev-matching was certainly taught as part of more advanced training (notably, the High-Performance Course). Rev-matching makes for a smoother manual gear change, even with synchromesh.Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
DarkVeil said:
A blip on the downshift is my method (which I referred to as rev matching), the question was how do others downshift without it the blip.
How? I would imagine it would go something like this:Edited by DarkVeil on Wednesday 3rd July 13:49
Be surprised you are slowing down due to a steep incline.
Press accelerator.
Continue slowing down,
Press accelerator more.
Continue slowing down.
Realise the road is too steep to maintain your speed, no matter how far you press the accelerator.
Come off the accelerator.
Depress the clutch.
Move the gear lever.
Release the clutch.
Nod head forwards.
Press accelerator.
Nod head backwards.
Return to previous speed.
Whilst lacking a lot in terms of both observation and smoothness, it's obviously been a serviceable approach for the majority ... I tend not to see large numbers of stranded motorists on every steep hill I encounter.
Whilst hardly driving god levels, I'd consider the gold standard to have seen the hill coming and reacted appropriately before it ever became an issue ... while acting smoothly but reactively (i.e. waiting for it to become an issue before taking any action) would be a considerably lower standard - but still just above the head nodding jerkiness that the majority are likely to employ.
We all make mistakes, and recognising you've made them (and what caused you to make them) is one of the most important steps in improving your driving. I know you've copped a bit of flack for your question ... and I'll admit, it seems an odd one to ask ... but if it helps you along with your driving improvements, then you crack on.
Salted_Peanut said:
An ex-police driving instructor taught me to rev-match when changing down. It mightn’t be taught at the IAM or RoSPA entry level, but rev-matching was certainly taught as part of more advanced training (notably, the High-Performance Course). Rev-matching makes for a smoother manual gear change, even with synchromesh.
Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
But, and I keep saying this, he's talking about changing down in order to accelerate, not to slow down.Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
I'm not sure how fast his flywheel spins up such that he can effectively increase engine speed to match the lower gear, not lose any speed, and also not immediately find himself off the power band i the new gear. And I'm not sure how he can do this faster than just changing down and getting back on the power like a normal person.
Salted_Peanut said:
Ken_Code said:
Seriously, invest in some advanced driving lessons
An ex-police driving instructor taught me to rev-match when changing down. It mightn’t be taught at the IAM or RoSPA entry level, but rev-matching was certainly taught as part of more advanced training (notably, the High-Performance Course). Rev-matching makes for a smoother manual gear change, even with synchromesh.Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
I'm not quite sure why I got the suggestion of advanced driving lessons, I assume because the scenario I gave was due to a lack of anticipation.
Doofus said:
Salted_Peanut said:
An ex-police driving instructor taught me to rev-match when changing down. It mightn’t be taught at the IAM or RoSPA entry level, but rev-matching was certainly taught as part of more advanced training (notably, the High-Performance Course). Rev-matching makes for a smoother manual gear change, even with synchromesh.
Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
But, and I keep saying this, he's talking about changing down in order to accelerate, not to slow down.Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
I'm not sure how fast his flywheel spins up such that he can effectively increase engine speed to match the lower gear, not lose any speed, and also not immediately find himself off the power band i the new gear. And I'm not sure how he can do this faster than just changing down and getting back on the power like a normal person.
2: Simultaneously change gear and blip the throttle
3: Drop the clutch
4: Get back on the throttle
The whole process only takes a couple of seconds to be in the power band of the lower gear. What would a normal person do that is faster?
DarkVeil said:
A blip on the downshift is my method (which I referred to as rev matching), the question was how do others downshift without it the blip.
Having driven 6 cylinders only for the last 26 years then:Edited by DarkVeil on Wednesday 3rd July 13:49
The first 19 years were in a manual, blipping the throttle was only necessary on fast block-change downshifts (5th to 3rd). Otherwise the smooth 6 cylinders and synchromesh were enough to cope.
Of course rev matching is indeed needed if the clutch is not used - clutchless manual gearchanges are recommended to hone these skills further!
The recent years are in an auto (335d ZF8) which manages any downshifts and blips by itself, using its own controls and GPS identification of road layout.
Doofus said:
Salted_Peanut said:
An ex-police driving instructor taught me to rev-match when changing down. It mightn’t be taught at the IAM or RoSPA entry level, but rev-matching was certainly taught as part of more advanced training (notably, the High-Performance Course). Rev-matching makes for a smoother manual gear change, even with synchromesh.
Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
But, and I keep saying this, he's talking about changing down in order to accelerate, not to slow down.Also, blipping the throttle to match the revs perfectly is one of those little things that make driving more satisfying.
It’s more important on the bike, too. Rev-matching is particularly helpful on motorbikes (unless they have a slipper clutch).
I'm not sure how fast his flywheel spins up such that he can effectively increase engine speed to match the lower gear, not lose any speed, and also not immediately find himself off the power band i the new gear. And I'm not sure how he can do this faster than just changing down and getting back on the power like a normal person.
What's the difference? It engages the gear more smoothly (and sounds cool) whether you are slowing down or accelerating.
Assuming you're flat out and not accelerating quickly, you're probably right down in the rev range. The difference in RPM will be pretty minor between any gear and the one below it. The clutch will slip a bit while the drive line and engine come together and there will be a bit of engine braking but the effect is pretty insignificant. Clutch wear is minimal. Clutch life will be affected far more by control in manoeuvres than down shifting.
popeyewhite said:
PhilAsia said:
I double-declutch to accelerate as the lower gear generally requires to be rev-matched.
Also, in an automatic I rev-match to the lower gear.
......unless there is an auto blip, cvt, etc...
Rev-matching causes less wear and tear and is mechanically sympathetic. Not something that is clear in 10km, but very clear over 100,000-500,000km.
That's fine for a 30 year old articulated lorry, do you drive a modern car? Also, in an automatic I rev-match to the lower gear.
......unless there is an auto blip, cvt, etc...
Rev-matching causes less wear and tear and is mechanically sympathetic. Not something that is clear in 10km, but very clear over 100,000-500,000km.
Doofus said:
But, and I keep saying this, he's talking about changing down in order to accelerate, not to slow down.
Let's put aside the idea of slowing down. Sometimes, I want to maintain my speed but drop one or even two gears (e.g., in my driving plan for an overtake, elevation change, or corner). Despite synchromesh, rev-matching allows for the most seamless gear change, maximising smoothness. It also enhances my driving involvement.I guess rev-matching is a dying art due to hybrid and electric cars, although it remains a relevant skill for motorcycling.
I've come to realise it's just the OP's writing style that is tripping me up (hopefully).
I heel & toe occasionally in the car and always blip on downshifts on the bike. Not because it's necessary but because it's sometimes smoother and sounds cool.
I still don't understand why the OP seems to think it's impossible to downshift and accelerate without a blip. You've got a manual car, just try it ffs.
I heel & toe occasionally in the car and always blip on downshifts on the bike. Not because it's necessary but because it's sometimes smoother and sounds cool.
I still don't understand why the OP seems to think it's impossible to downshift and accelerate without a blip. You've got a manual car, just try it ffs.
I don't see that there is very much in the mechanical sympathy bit, unless we are talking exceptionally rough use of the clutch.
I have driven over a million miles, loads of different cars. Taken a few from almost new to well over 100,000 miles plus including some very sporty driving in my younger days as a service engineer in Astra vans and estates. I have never bothered with throttle blipping on downshifts (decelerating or accelerating) and never replaced a clutch, repaired a gearbox or any other bit of the transmission.
Like most for a bit of reasonably smooth driving, I probably sub-consciously get onto the throttle a little at the same time as releasing the clutch a so the engine speed increases slightly. Just like people do when pulling away.
I have driven over a million miles, loads of different cars. Taken a few from almost new to well over 100,000 miles plus including some very sporty driving in my younger days as a service engineer in Astra vans and estates. I have never bothered with throttle blipping on downshifts (decelerating or accelerating) and never replaced a clutch, repaired a gearbox or any other bit of the transmission.
Like most for a bit of reasonably smooth driving, I probably sub-consciously get onto the throttle a little at the same time as releasing the clutch a so the engine speed increases slightly. Just like people do when pulling away.
If you’re talking changing down to accelerate then surely the best thing is to anticipate, change down and rely on the clutch springs to do their job? Thats very smooth and won’t damage the clutch.
On track wtf are you doing, there never a situation to do this IMO.
If you’re talking changing down as you brake then again with modern cars it’s really not necessary, the engine braking won’t unsettle the car unless you’re really clumsy with the clutch.
It looks and sounds cool but really is a throwback and there are better things to concentrate on.
On track wtf are you doing, there never a situation to do this IMO.
If you’re talking changing down as you brake then again with modern cars it’s really not necessary, the engine braking won’t unsettle the car unless you’re really clumsy with the clutch.
It looks and sounds cool but really is a throwback and there are better things to concentrate on.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 3rd July 19:44
k all to smooth the engagement of the clutch with a large rev discrepancy.740EVTORQUES said:
If your talking changing down to accelerate then surely the best thing is to anticipate, change down and rely on the clutch swings to do their job? Thats very smooth and won’t damage the clutch.
In track wtf are you doing, there never a situation to do this IMO.
If you’re talking changing down as you brake then again with modern cars it’s really not necessary, the engine braking won’t I settle the car h less your really clumsy either the clutch.
It looks and sounds cool but really is a throwback and yhere are better things to concentrate on.
Exactly. Thank you. In track wtf are you doing, there never a situation to do this IMO.
If you’re talking changing down as you brake then again with modern cars it’s really not necessary, the engine braking won’t I settle the car h less your really clumsy either the clutch.
It looks and sounds cool but really is a throwback and yhere are better things to concentrate on.
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