Is overtaking a lost art?
Discussion
The HPC Young drivers day is telling for this - When you ask a room of people how many were taught by their instructors to safely overtake, it's usually one or two at most.
I was among that crowd - After my ADI "Test Passing" lessons, all I would've known about overtaking is "look for a big gap and go as fast as you can" which is lacking some nuance...
I was among that crowd - After my ADI "Test Passing" lessons, all I would've known about overtaking is "look for a big gap and go as fast as you can" which is lacking some nuance...
Haltamer said:
The HPC Young drivers day is telling for this - When you ask a room of people how many were taught by their instructors to safely overtake, it's usually one or two at most.
I was among that crowd - After my ADI "Test Passing" lessons, all I would've known about overtaking is "look for a big gap and go as fast as you can" which is lacking some nuance...
I've found the instructions some provide, 'Once you are sure it is clear, indicate and pull out so you can be seen by the person you are overtaking, only once you have pulled out increase your speed to complete the overtake' to be nonsense. No way do most family cars, especially with a family in them, have the power to do so safely. Most 'normal' cars, and by that I mean 9+ seconds to 60 will need a run before signaling and then overtaking.I was among that crowd - After my ADI "Test Passing" lessons, all I would've known about overtaking is "look for a big gap and go as fast as you can" which is lacking some nuance...
MissChief said:
I've found the instructions some provide, 'Once you are sure it is clear, indicate and pull out so you can be seen by the person you are overtaking, only once you have pulled out increase your speed to complete the overtake' to be nonsense. No way do most family cars, especially with a family in them, have the power to do so safely. Most 'normal' cars, and by that I mean 9+ seconds to 60 will need a run before signaling and then overtaking.
Might be a good idea to first check someone isn't about to or currently overtaking you. This forum is full of people who boast about overtaking multiple cars in one go.In general, if someone don't have the intelligence to work out what is a safe and effective approach, they should avoid doing it at all.
It really isn't difficult, so someone who can't think it through should worry about their abilities.
MissChief said:
I've found the instructions some provide, 'Once you are sure it is clear, indicate and pull out so you can be seen by the person you are overtaking, only once you have pulled out increase your speed to complete the overtake' to be nonsense. No way do most family cars, especially with a family in them, have the power to do so safely. Most 'normal' cars, and by that I mean 9+ seconds to 60 will need a run before signaling and then overtaking.
I disagree with you. I've never had a properly powerful car and in fact I've overtaken absolutely loads of stuff on country roads, using this method, in a now 17 year old Renault Laguna estate that once upon a time had a massive, naturally aspirated 130bhp. Just needs more space, time and planning.Runups, aka the flying banana, give you other problems like having to slow back down to abort in a car that is just as feeble on slowing as going.
MissChief said:
Haltamer said:
The HPC Young drivers day is telling for this - When you ask a room of people how many were taught by their instructors to safely overtake, it's usually one or two at most.
I was among that crowd - After my ADI "Test Passing" lessons, all I would've known about overtaking is "look for a big gap and go as fast as you can" which is lacking some nuance...
I've found the instructions some provide, 'Once you are sure it is clear, indicate and pull out so you can be seen by the person you are overtaking, only once you have pulled out increase your speed to complete the overtake' to be nonsense. No way do most family cars, especially with a family in them, have the power to do so safely. Most 'normal' cars, and by that I mean 9+ seconds to 60 will need a run before signaling and then overtaking.I was among that crowd - After my ADI "Test Passing" lessons, all I would've known about overtaking is "look for a big gap and go as fast as you can" which is lacking some nuance...
The only "safe" way is to hang back, start accelerating mid bend, and at the moment of truth, when you can see the straight, make a split second decision, to go for it and overtake, as you are already 20 mph faster than the car in front or abort the overtake, and brake hard to stay behind the car in front and not have a head on.
Or better, look across the fields to the next straight, see that there's nothing coming and start your overtaking as the car in front is braking for the next bend. Ie just don't bother braking and take the bend on the wrong side of the road. Mind you it will promote road rage.
After driving a tractor on Sunday that does 20mph flat out and is a bit sketchy over bumps so I don’t even do that, I can confirm that yes overtaking is a lost art.
I do pull over where it’s safe to do so and let people pass, but a few of the parts of the road had a clear view and a straight road with nothing coming and people still just sat behind me. I just don’t get it, it just makes my life harder as I have to pull over and let people pass when they could have just gone round me. I could have carried on for the next 20 miles, would they still have just sat there?
I tried to go earlyish yesterday, but apparently lots of people wanted to be out in the sunshine, including an impressive amount of classic fords which I tried not to get into the middle of!
I do pull over where it’s safe to do so and let people pass, but a few of the parts of the road had a clear view and a straight road with nothing coming and people still just sat behind me. I just don’t get it, it just makes my life harder as I have to pull over and let people pass when they could have just gone round me. I could have carried on for the next 20 miles, would they still have just sat there?
I tried to go earlyish yesterday, but apparently lots of people wanted to be out in the sunshine, including an impressive amount of classic fords which I tried not to get into the middle of!
Wondering who teaches hgv drivers how to overtake on dual carriageway or motorways..
Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
Chamon_Lee said:
Completely lost. Most people don't know how to do it and if they do its never, calculated, smooth and flowing as to not disturb other road users.
Add to that the utter disgust people show at any overtake done.
Sad times
I had this yesterday, a slow moving car on a road I know well with a speed limit of 60mph, it was averaging just under 40mph and when we came to a straight section I overtook, nothing coming the other way. Colour me surprised when the driver started flashing their lights, presume it was indignation rather than anything else, bizarre. Add to that the utter disgust people show at any overtake done.
Sad times
911hope said:
Wondering who teaches hgv drivers how to overtake on dual carriageway or motorways..
Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
Another one bashing a HGV driver, a driver with higher qualifications. Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
I’ve been driving these for 20 years and a HGV instructor for 3 (88 percent pass rate) it’s mad car drivers such as yourself think you’re actually better. The behaviour these drivers have to put up with on a day to day basis is quite frankly ridiculous. But of course you’re limited to 3.5 tons, of course you know better…
Chedders said:
911hope said:
Wondering who teaches hgv drivers how to overtake on dual carriageway or motorways..
Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
Another one bashing a HGV driver, a driver with higher qualifications. Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
I’ve been driving these for 20 years and a HGV instructor for 3 (88 percent pass rate) it’s mad car drivers such as yourself think you’re actually better. The behaviour these drivers have to put up with on a day to day basis is quite frankly ridiculous. But of course you’re limited to 3.5 tons, of course you know better…
It is there to see with your eyes on EVERY journey.
Your comment about "mad car drivers" does raise questions. What is mad about someone objecting to a big lumbering vehicle changing lanes into their path at 20mph slower speed, risking their life and mandating evasive action?
Why does the hgv driver think this is acceptable behaviour?
911hope said:
Chedders said:
911hope said:
Wondering who teaches hgv drivers how to overtake on dual carriageway or motorways..
Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
Another one bashing a HGV driver, a driver with higher qualifications. Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
I’ve been driving these for 20 years and a HGV instructor for 3 (88 percent pass rate) it’s mad car drivers such as yourself think you’re actually better. The behaviour these drivers have to put up with on a day to day basis is quite frankly ridiculous. But of course you’re limited to 3.5 tons, of course you know better…
It is there to see with your eyes on EVERY journey.
Your comment about "mad car drivers" does raise questions. What is mad about someone objecting to a big lumbering vehicle changing lanes into their path at 20mph slower speed, risking their life and mandating evasive action?
Why does the hgv driver think this is acceptable behaviour?
If a driver is doing an eight hour shift, I imagine they don't want to just mindlessly follow a vehicle in front of them for all that time when they could gain time that would see them get home instead of spending a(nother) night in a lay-by a stone's throw from their destination/family.
If an HGV has caused a driver to undertake 'evasive action', one might suggest that the driver improves their observation and planning in order to reduce the number of things that happen 'suddenly'.
I am always surprised by the number of people that are surprised by what HGVs want/need to do. I've never driven one but it is usually blindingly obvious from a distance that a truck gaining ground on another vehicle is going to want to overtake. A simple lift of the throttle and a flash can see them glide out and get past the vehicle in front more quickly because they can carry more speed (the 'banana' overtake? lol) than being forced to slow down behind the slower vehicle and then lumber back up to speed during the overtake because no-one let them out.
Drivers should not think they have carte blanche right to steam down the outside lane and tough luck for anyone looking to move into that lane to overtake. A simple bit of acceleration sense and a mindset of give-and-take goes a long way.
911hope said:
Chedders said:
911hope said:
Wondering who teaches hgv drivers how to overtake on dual carriageway or motorways..
Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
Another one bashing a HGV driver, a driver with higher qualifications. Procedure seems to be...
Approaching hgv in front at relative speed of 0.1mph.
Back off or overtake? Obviously overtake.
Check lane next to see if it is occupied or has much faster traffic to endanger. The result of this check can be ignored.
Just indicate and wait for the other road users to take evasive action. (They have to do this as they have all experienced the indicate and go manoeuvre. )That could mean braking or lane changing, which will create congestion and possibly an accident. Non of this should be of concern to the hgv driver.
The overtake may take several minutes or fail altogether or be reversed on the next hill. Never mind ....just repeat all day. Don't worry about the fact that the journey time will not be shortened in the slightest.
If it is a 4 lane motorway, this is the chance to block 3/4 of the motorway with the futile and dangerous practice.
I’ve been driving these for 20 years and a HGV instructor for 3 (88 percent pass rate) it’s mad car drivers such as yourself think you’re actually better. The behaviour these drivers have to put up with on a day to day basis is quite frankly ridiculous. But of course you’re limited to 3.5 tons, of course you know better…
It is there to see with your eyes on EVERY journey.
Your comment about "mad car drivers" does raise questions. What is mad about someone objecting to a big lumbering vehicle changing lanes into their path at 20mph slower speed, risking their life and mandating evasive action?
Why does the hgv driver think this is acceptable behaviour?
Should I just slow down to 45mph and sit behind them all day long?
RSTurboPaul said:
Drivers should not think they have carte blanche right to steam down the outside lane and tough luck for anyone looking to move into that lane to overtake. A simple bit of acceleration sense and a mindset of give-and-take goes a long way.
An interesting point of view.It would seem to say that it is ok to move into a faster lane to overtake, without making sure there is adequate space to match the speed of the traffic already in that lane, thereby causing traffic in that overtaking lane to take evasive manoeuvres to avoid an accident.
As a general rule if a driver does something that requires some mitigating action from another, they are in the wrong.
Of course, in reality, experienced drivers learn to expect the worst and are prepared for it. This doesn't make "the worst" acceptable.
As we seem to have a few HGV drivers on here I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the following. Before I go on I'm no means HGV bashing as I know they are required and more important than me in the grand scheme of things, but....
They seem to blindly follow Sat Navs these days not accounting for the size of the road. I travel down quite a few B-roads to work and the amount of times I've been confronted by a massive HGV forcing me to drive in the hedgerows so they can get by seems to have increased dramatically of late. Do you guys just use Google maps / integrated sat navs or do you have software telling you to avoid certain roads? It causes a lot of problems and if confronted with a school mum in her oversized SUV the likelihood is a stalemate causing huge tailbacks. I'm not in this world so I don't know the ins and outs of it but I'm keen to know.
They seem to blindly follow Sat Navs these days not accounting for the size of the road. I travel down quite a few B-roads to work and the amount of times I've been confronted by a massive HGV forcing me to drive in the hedgerows so they can get by seems to have increased dramatically of late. Do you guys just use Google maps / integrated sat navs or do you have software telling you to avoid certain roads? It causes a lot of problems and if confronted with a school mum in her oversized SUV the likelihood is a stalemate causing huge tailbacks. I'm not in this world so I don't know the ins and outs of it but I'm keen to know.
I don’t venture into this but if the forum much, but some of the views expressed here are a long way from any technique I’d describe as ‘advanced’ driving. A bit of forward planning and anticipation do go a long way to facilitate a smooth and stress free journey, as does an appreciation that not all drivers are that confident, are possibly not fully concentrating, maybe new to driving and this not as experienced at decision making etc. some people are just idiots with whom we need to share the roads. We just need to deal with and account for these folks without generating conflict. It’s really not hard.
Oh, and people advocating using ‘banana overtakes’ really need to take a bit of training, or at least read up on why this is a bad idea and, I think, is why many people who are being overtaken feel threatened and respond with the lights and waving stuff. It’s a dangerous way of overtaking and does threaten the safety of the occupants of the car being overtaken.
Oh, and people advocating using ‘banana overtakes’ really need to take a bit of training, or at least read up on why this is a bad idea and, I think, is why many people who are being overtaken feel threatened and respond with the lights and waving stuff. It’s a dangerous way of overtaking and does threaten the safety of the occupants of the car being overtaken.
911hope said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Drivers should not think they have carte blanche right to steam down the outside lane and tough luck for anyone looking to move into that lane to overtake. A simple bit of acceleration sense and a mindset of give-and-take goes a long way.
An interesting point of view.It would seem to say that it is ok to move into a faster lane to overtake, without making sure there is adequate space to match the speed of the traffic already in that lane, thereby causing traffic in that overtaking lane to take evasive manoeuvres to avoid an accident.
As a general rule if a driver does something that requires some mitigating action from another, they are in the wrong.
Of course, in reality, experienced drivers learn to expect the worst and are prepared for it. This doesn't make "the worst" acceptable.
That such mitigating action might be required is often/usually obvious. A skilled driver observes the situation, appreciates such action might be required, and takes steps to minimise the impact of the changing circumstances on their driving plan and maximise their own safety and that of others.
What appears to be being said in the second sentence of the quoted reply is that vehicles should not move into another lane if they cannot match the speed of traffic in that lane (and that traffic using the second lane should never have to slow down or consider the users of lane one). An HGV will never match the speed of (for example) car traffic because they have limiters at/around 56mph.
Does that mean that they should never move into an overtaking lane because they can't do 70mph (or faster)? And to do so will 'force' others to 'take evasive action to avoid an accident'?
If traffic is light and moving at higher speeds, it is easy to observe at distance trucks closing the gap on vehicles in front and needing to overtake soon, and drivers can plan for it to happen (and assist it happening) without any surprises or 'evasive action to avoid an accident', rather than keeping their foot in and playing chicken with 44 tons of metal and a driver that might be tired and/or driving a LHD vehicle with crap mirrors.
If traffic is heavier and moving at slower speeds, 'evasive action' still should not be needed because a simple lift of the accelerator pedal will create a gap an HGV can slot into without losing momentum, reducing the time taken for them to overtake and reducing sudden braking and the drastic ripple effect it can have.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Tuesday 23 July 11:25
8IKERDAVE said:
As we seem to have a few HGV drivers on here I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the following. Before I go on I'm no means HGV bashing as I know they are required and more important than me in the grand scheme of things, but....
They seem to blindly follow Sat Navs these days not accounting for the size of the road. I travel down quite a few B-roads to work and the amount of times I've been confronted by a massive HGV forcing me to drive in the hedgerows so they can get by seems to have increased dramatically of late. Do you guys just use Google maps / integrated sat navs or do you have software telling you to avoid certain roads? It causes a lot of problems and if confronted with a school mum in her oversized SUV the likelihood is a stalemate causing huge tailbacks. I'm not in this world so I don't know the ins and outs of it but I'm keen to know.
Sat Navs specifically intended for trucks and buses are available. But they are expensive and a trucker friend says they don't work particularly well.They seem to blindly follow Sat Navs these days not accounting for the size of the road. I travel down quite a few B-roads to work and the amount of times I've been confronted by a massive HGV forcing me to drive in the hedgerows so they can get by seems to have increased dramatically of late. Do you guys just use Google maps / integrated sat navs or do you have software telling you to avoid certain roads? It causes a lot of problems and if confronted with a school mum in her oversized SUV the likelihood is a stalemate causing huge tailbacks. I'm not in this world so I don't know the ins and outs of it but I'm keen to know.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C2HP5S6F?tag=track-e...
bigothunter said:
8IKERDAVE said:
As we seem to have a few HGV drivers on here I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the following. Before I go on I'm no means HGV bashing as I know they are required and more important than me in the grand scheme of things, but....
They seem to blindly follow Sat Navs these days not accounting for the size of the road. I travel down quite a few B-roads to work and the amount of times I've been confronted by a massive HGV forcing me to drive in the hedgerows so they can get by seems to have increased dramatically of late. Do you guys just use Google maps / integrated sat navs or do you have software telling you to avoid certain roads? It causes a lot of problems and if confronted with a school mum in her oversized SUV the likelihood is a stalemate causing huge tailbacks. I'm not in this world so I don't know the ins and outs of it but I'm keen to know.
Sat Navs specifically intended for trucks and buses are available. But they are expensive and a trucker friend says they don't work particularly well.They seem to blindly follow Sat Navs these days not accounting for the size of the road. I travel down quite a few B-roads to work and the amount of times I've been confronted by a massive HGV forcing me to drive in the hedgerows so they can get by seems to have increased dramatically of late. Do you guys just use Google maps / integrated sat navs or do you have software telling you to avoid certain roads? It causes a lot of problems and if confronted with a school mum in her oversized SUV the likelihood is a stalemate causing huge tailbacks. I'm not in this world so I don't know the ins and outs of it but I'm keen to know.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C2HP5S6F?tag=track-e...
I know of a particularly extreme example of lorries on the wrong road in a town near me where a huge housing development was built. As part of the planning permission the developers had to build a nice modern 40mph good quality, heavy duty road to carry heavy vehicles and relieve the existing Victorian roads they had been using.
Do all the through-traffic lorries use the road built specifically to carry them? No. The vast majority continue to use the Victorian residential streets because that is the route that still carries a B-number and hence is given priority by Google et al. Why? Because the council has refused to adopt the new road, so cannot issue it with a number. Which means a grumpy artic driver waves his arms at you because he's had to stop (the nature of an old residential road with parked cars on both sides) unaware that he wouldn't be having this problem if the council had diverted him onto the new road a mile back.
ETA complete aside, but some twunt on the new estate has tried to raise support for having lorries banned from the big 40mph lorry road that was built specifically to carry the lorries...
Edited by donkmeister on Tuesday 23 July 13:23
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff