Install upgrade - what/where these days?
Discussion
I'm thinking of upgrading my current set-up. The speakers are 7 years old, the front amp god only knows, and the sub/amp 10 years old.
The sub/amp is a Rockford Fosgate shallow box 10" Punch, 300w RMS @ 1ohm; and I've got a JBL GT5-A3001 driving it at exactly that power (note: the current A3001 is not 1ohm stable).
I've never been very impressed with this set-up, but I'm prepared to simply increase the gain at this point to balance louder front speakers - I play mostly rock/metal, so there's less deep bass than some genres. I'll risk blowing it because (a) the worst that happens is I need to buy a new sub when it dies, and that'd be the same if I were to upgrade (I've still got a 10" boxed/ported Focal from before in the garage, no-one wants to buy it off Gumtree...), and (b) I suspect I've been underdriving it for years anyway
Front speakers are a set of Focal 165AS 2 way components, 60w RMS, powered by my long loved Genesis Profile 2 - officially 50w per channel, but Genesis watts were always extra meaty, so likely 60+ in reality, nicely suiting the speakers. I really like the SQ on these speakers - tone and detail.
And when I put this set-up into my current Skoda Rapid, I added an Audison Bit10 DSP to allow me to keep the OE HU, and balance the whole system.
But now I'd like everything to go a fair chunk louder!
I'm thinking maybe 100-150w per channel on the front, and the budget is a potentially a good few hundred quid for a new 2 channel + new 2-ways.
But unless my google-fu is failing, both the number of manufacturers and the number of retailers seems to have shrunk massively these days?!
I have been loyal to CarAudioDirect for something like 30 years (I worked with the mother of one of the owners when I lived in Oxfordshire) and they always used to have plenty of choice... not so much now. And I can't find huge numbers of other retailers, either.
In the meantime, there's a few new names I don't recognise/trust about, and makes I'd expect to see at various price points seem to have more or less vanished.
I must be getting old...
So, who's buying what from where, and any recommendations for my plan?
The sub/amp is a Rockford Fosgate shallow box 10" Punch, 300w RMS @ 1ohm; and I've got a JBL GT5-A3001 driving it at exactly that power (note: the current A3001 is not 1ohm stable).
I've never been very impressed with this set-up, but I'm prepared to simply increase the gain at this point to balance louder front speakers - I play mostly rock/metal, so there's less deep bass than some genres. I'll risk blowing it because (a) the worst that happens is I need to buy a new sub when it dies, and that'd be the same if I were to upgrade (I've still got a 10" boxed/ported Focal from before in the garage, no-one wants to buy it off Gumtree...), and (b) I suspect I've been underdriving it for years anyway
Front speakers are a set of Focal 165AS 2 way components, 60w RMS, powered by my long loved Genesis Profile 2 - officially 50w per channel, but Genesis watts were always extra meaty, so likely 60+ in reality, nicely suiting the speakers. I really like the SQ on these speakers - tone and detail.
And when I put this set-up into my current Skoda Rapid, I added an Audison Bit10 DSP to allow me to keep the OE HU, and balance the whole system.
But now I'd like everything to go a fair chunk louder!
I'm thinking maybe 100-150w per channel on the front, and the budget is a potentially a good few hundred quid for a new 2 channel + new 2-ways.
But unless my google-fu is failing, both the number of manufacturers and the number of retailers seems to have shrunk massively these days?!
I have been loyal to CarAudioDirect for something like 30 years (I worked with the mother of one of the owners when I lived in Oxfordshire) and they always used to have plenty of choice... not so much now. And I can't find huge numbers of other retailers, either.
In the meantime, there's a few new names I don't recognise/trust about, and makes I'd expect to see at various price points seem to have more or less vanished.
I must be getting old...
So, who's buying what from where, and any recommendations for my plan?
Funnily enough just had a Sony double DIN head unit installed in my 996 by John Kleis in Reading.
Brilliant bunch, highly recommended, Oxford Car Audio also good.
As you say, there actually isn’t much choice in manufacturers. I suspect the advent of integrated ICE has reduced demand. It was a challenge finding a head unit that fitted the interior style, and most look pretty grim.
I need a new amp as the old Kenwood one has croaked, and it powered the two door-mounted low range speakers.
Brilliant bunch, highly recommended, Oxford Car Audio also good.
As you say, there actually isn’t much choice in manufacturers. I suspect the advent of integrated ICE has reduced demand. It was a challenge finding a head unit that fitted the interior style, and most look pretty grim.
I need a new amp as the old Kenwood one has croaked, and it powered the two door-mounted low range speakers.
Robertb said:
Funnily enough just had a Sony double DIN head unit installed in my 996 by John Kleis in Reading.
Brilliant bunch, highly recommended, Oxford Car Audio also good.
I do the installing myself, just need to choose the bits Brilliant bunch, highly recommended, Oxford Car Audio also good.
(And OCA are the shop/workshop side of Car Audio Direct)
Robertb said:
As you say, there actually isn’t much choice in manufacturers. I suspect the advent of integrated ICE has reduced demand.
This is what I'm thinking, too. I had to add the DSP to make my stuff work with the integrated ICE in my Skoda (because if you take it out, you lose a load of functions for the car itself), and that adds another chunk of cost and another level of complexity to a simple install.Hopefully the stuff left being sold by the long term sites (like CAD and CarAudioSecurity) is all pretty decent quality then, regardless of whether I've heard of the makes or not??
I dare say there's still a pile of cheap rubbish on Amazon and Ali Express, but I haven't gone to look
As you already have the Audison Bit10 DSP, it would be criminal not to run a 3-way active system.
So keep the Profile 2 amp and bin everything else off. Buy some better 6.5" components. You should allocate a large proportion of your budget on these. Focal do a huge range of these if you like their sound. As a recommendation, I have a set of Audison Voce AVK6. You don't need the passive crossovers, so you maybe able to save money buying the speakers separately, rather than as part of a kit.
Use your Profile 2 amp to power the tweeters. Buy another bigger amp to power the mids. For example, there is a Genesis Profile 4 amp on ebay currently for £200. Bridge that and you have ~175w @ 4ohms into 2 channels and you'll match the sound signature of the profile 2. Depends how loud you want to go. Tweeters don't need a lot of power, so you could keep the Profile 2 for the mids and buy a smaller 2 channel amp - 30-40w is plenty eg: Genesis Stereo 60. Depends how sensitive your new speakers are and how power hungry.
For the sub, there is no replacement for displacement, so buy a 12" sub and suitable amp. I have a Genesis 12" sub and a Genesis Profile Sub amp rated at 350w 4ohms and 550w 2ohms. That's plenty loud enough.
And of course don't skimp on the install. Properly sound proof the doors, thick HDPE for the speaker mounts, suitable gauge wire and fuses/terminals etc.
As for brands, all the usual ones are still about; Alpine, Audison, Focal, Hertz, JBL, JL Audio, Kenwood, Morel, Phoenix Gold, Pioneer, Rainbow, Rockford Fosgate, Sinfoni, Sony etc. Probably only Genesis who you are familiar with that no longer make new products.
I bought all my speakers and amps second hand, only buying the Head Unit new. Amps can be serviced/repaired eg: https://www.ampdoctor.co.uk/servicing/genesis-ampl...
So keep the Profile 2 amp and bin everything else off. Buy some better 6.5" components. You should allocate a large proportion of your budget on these. Focal do a huge range of these if you like their sound. As a recommendation, I have a set of Audison Voce AVK6. You don't need the passive crossovers, so you maybe able to save money buying the speakers separately, rather than as part of a kit.
Use your Profile 2 amp to power the tweeters. Buy another bigger amp to power the mids. For example, there is a Genesis Profile 4 amp on ebay currently for £200. Bridge that and you have ~175w @ 4ohms into 2 channels and you'll match the sound signature of the profile 2. Depends how loud you want to go. Tweeters don't need a lot of power, so you could keep the Profile 2 for the mids and buy a smaller 2 channel amp - 30-40w is plenty eg: Genesis Stereo 60. Depends how sensitive your new speakers are and how power hungry.
For the sub, there is no replacement for displacement, so buy a 12" sub and suitable amp. I have a Genesis 12" sub and a Genesis Profile Sub amp rated at 350w 4ohms and 550w 2ohms. That's plenty loud enough.
And of course don't skimp on the install. Properly sound proof the doors, thick HDPE for the speaker mounts, suitable gauge wire and fuses/terminals etc.
As for brands, all the usual ones are still about; Alpine, Audison, Focal, Hertz, JBL, JL Audio, Kenwood, Morel, Phoenix Gold, Pioneer, Rainbow, Rockford Fosgate, Sinfoni, Sony etc. Probably only Genesis who you are familiar with that no longer make new products.
I bought all my speakers and amps second hand, only buying the Head Unit new. Amps can be serviced/repaired eg: https://www.ampdoctor.co.uk/servicing/genesis-ampl...
Edited by TEKNOPUG on Tuesday 19th March 11:43
Edited by TEKNOPUG on Tuesday 19th March 19:50
TEKNOPUG said:
As you already have the Audison Bit10 DSP, it would be criminal not to run a 3-way active system.
So, I'm going to be criminal, at least for a bit longer 
I've ordered some Audison APK165s which have considerably higher sensitivity than my current speakers; I'm going to drop them in first and just see how I like them with the current power (after re-tuning the system). If it's not enough, I'll look to a new amp and consider going active at the same time... I did run the necessary extra wires from the back when I did the install, so it's only getting a new set into the doors. I think I put enough capacity in the power wire to run a lot more watts, but I'll double check that before I start going crazy, too.
And I like a 10" sub - I mainly play rock/metal, so I'm mostly looking for that bass drum thump nice and tight; I'm not into earth-shaking low bass.
Also, I've been learning more about setting up the EQ... I may have just gone too flat with the current set-up... it's quite possible I could retune the current speakers now I understand more about improving the mid-bass and find the sound I feel has been lacking that way... but don't tell my wife, because I'm not sending the new ones back
Hhhmmm, personally I don't rate Audison for what you're listening to, I'd have thought either Kicker or JBL Stadium would be more suited to the style of music you listen to, the Genesis amps are a thing of both beauty and extreme quality.
Sadly Infinity are no longer an option as they are hard to find in this country.
Sadly Infinity are no longer an option as they are hard to find in this country.
Bobberoo said:
Hhhmmm, personally I don't rate Audison for what you're listening to, I'd have thought either Kicker or JBL Stadium would be more suited to the style of music you listen to, the Genesis amps are a thing of both beauty and extreme quality.
Sadly Infinity are no longer an option as they are hard to find in this country.
TBF, I kinda hate buying speakers. It's always a gamble. Even when you can demo them live, there's no guarantee they'll sound the same in your car; these days it's more trying to hunt down comparison videos. And then you've got all sort of artifacts from the recording, compression, sound cards and of course ultimately they can never sound better than whatever you're listening to the video on.Sadly Infinity are no longer an option as they are hard to find in this country.
I was, from reading, set on a pair of Morel Maximo Ultra mk2 602HEs... then I found some videos, and I just found them sort of ... thin ... to my ears. I was hunting videos of all sorts of speakers in the £2-400 price range... the ones that grabbed me were, obviously, the Audisons I have bought (even though the person who made the video was slagging them off and saying the brand he sells is far better
). Who knows whether I'll like them in the car... ...there's only one way to find out
defblade said:
Bobberoo said:
Hhhmmm, personally I don't rate Audison for what you're listening to, I'd have thought either Kicker or JBL Stadium would be more suited to the style of music you listen to, the Genesis amps are a thing of both beauty and extreme quality.
Sadly Infinity are no longer an option as they are hard to find in this country.
TBF, I kinda hate buying speakers. It's always a gamble. Even when you can demo them live, there's no guarantee they'll sound the same in your car; these days it's more trying to hunt down comparison videos. And then you've got all sort of artifacts from the recording, compression, sound cards and of course ultimately they can never sound better than whatever you're listening to the video on.Sadly Infinity are no longer an option as they are hard to find in this country.
I was, from reading, set on a pair of Morel Maximo Ultra mk2 602HEs... then I found some videos, and I just found them sort of ... thin ... to my ears. I was hunting videos of all sorts of speakers in the £2-400 price range... the ones that grabbed me were, obviously, the Audisons I have bought (even though the person who made the video was slagging them off and saying the brand he sells is far better
). Who knows whether I'll like them in the car... ...there's only one way to find out
It really is a gamble with speakers.
I was really lucky when I used to really be into ICE, I live just outside Southampton and had an excellent dealer in Anglesey Car Radio, I had a business on the side supplying and installing ICE for around 15 years using Les from Anglesey as my supplier, sadly Anglesey has gone and the last I heard Les was very poorly.
Like you, I did a s
t load of research before I bought my JBL Club system, but it was bought on the strength of the speakers ability to really drop and hold a baseline as my musical tastes are very much in the D&B, trance and house genres.Got around to mounting the Audisons a couple of weeks ago. Still running them in before I get the RTA/EQ out to tune them properly, but there's no doubt they are significantly louder than the Focals that came out - I've had to turn down the "max turn on" volume a couple of clicks
So far, I like the sound a lot; I feel like I'm picking up new details and in particular better stereo imaging... but that might just be that I'm listening more closely at the moment, and maybe a chunk of purchase justification
That volume is just running my Profile 50 (likely ~70 real watts RMS)... tempted to go for something rated ~100w but I'm worried I'd end up with jumps too big on the HU volume control - I can only use the first half before the signal clips as it is, so it picks up quite a bit of loudness for each notch and I'm losing some fine control at the quieter end.
So far, I like the sound a lot; I feel like I'm picking up new details and in particular better stereo imaging... but that might just be that I'm listening more closely at the moment, and maybe a chunk of purchase justification
That volume is just running my Profile 50 (likely ~70 real watts RMS)... tempted to go for something rated ~100w but I'm worried I'd end up with jumps too big on the HU volume control - I can only use the first half before the signal clips as it is, so it picks up quite a bit of loudness for each notch and I'm losing some fine control at the quieter end.
simon_harris said:
You know you can send the amp back to Gordon for a fettle and an upgrade don’t you? He did my 5 channel a few years ago now - was always my dream to have a Genesis amp in a build and I utterly love it.
I did contact him a while ago... "if there's no problems with it, leave it alone." Seeing as how that's him turning down a good few quid, thought it was likely to be good advice, and have left it well alone!defblade said:
Got around to mounting the Audisons a couple of weeks ago. Still running them in before I get the RTA/EQ out to tune them properly, but there's no doubt they are significantly louder than the Focals that came out - I've had to turn down the "max turn on" volume a couple of clicks
So far, I like the sound a lot; I feel like I'm picking up new details and in particular better stereo imaging... but that might just be that I'm listening more closely at the moment, and maybe a chunk of purchase justification
That volume is just running my Profile 50 (likely ~70 real watts RMS)... tempted to go for something rated ~100w but I'm worried I'd end up with jumps too big on the HU volume control - I can only use the first half before the signal clips as it is, so it picks up quite a bit of loudness for each notch and I'm losing some fine control at the quieter end.
Is the gain on the amp turned all the way down?So far, I like the sound a lot; I feel like I'm picking up new details and in particular better stereo imaging... but that might just be that I'm listening more closely at the moment, and maybe a chunk of purchase justification
That volume is just running my Profile 50 (likely ~70 real watts RMS)... tempted to go for something rated ~100w but I'm worried I'd end up with jumps too big on the HU volume control - I can only use the first half before the signal clips as it is, so it picks up quite a bit of loudness for each notch and I'm losing some fine control at the quieter end.
defblade said:
simon_harris said:
You know you can send the amp back to Gordon for a fettle and an upgrade don’t you? He did my 5 channel a few years ago now - was always my dream to have a Genesis amp in a build and I utterly love it.
I did contact him a while ago... "if there's no problems with it, leave it alone." Seeing as how that's him turning down a good few quid, thought it was likely to be good advice, and have left it well alone!they have added some additional services to their offering now so maybe worth a chat at least.
TEKNOPUG said:
Is the gain on the amp turned all the way down?
Pretty much, IIRC. More than a touch started clipping. I'll be going back to scratch in a week or two; resetting all the levels from zero and working through again. It's limited by keeping the OE HU which is not the greatest, but is so heavily tied in to the car's other functions simon_harris said:
Fair enough! I sent my 5 channel to him and it came back all shiny and pretty with a new birthsheet showing an extra 15wrms per channel on the main channels, I think it was an extra 60+ on the sub channel.
they have added some additional services to their offering now so maybe worth a chat at least.
Cheers, I'll take a look they have added some additional services to their offering now so maybe worth a chat at least.
defblade said:
TEKNOPUG said:
Is the gain on the amp turned all the way down?
Pretty much, IIRC. More than a touch started clipping. I'll be going back to scratch in a week or two; resetting all the levels from zero and working through again. It's limited by keeping the OE HU which is not the greatest, but is so heavily tied in to the car's other functions TEKNOPUG said:
Is it the mids or the tweeters that are clipping and at what frequency?
I check clipping with a 1kHz test tone, so it'll be the mids mainly.I find it near impossible to hear anything less than terrible clipping on a sub, and I run my tweets turned down slightly anyway as I don't like music too sharp/bright so I don't worry too much about checking them separately.
Tuned the new speakers in at the weekend... in fact, went through the whole system again from the start. Managed to set it up so I have about 80% of the HU volume control available instead of 50%, and the overall result is a good bit louder at that point, still with no clipping to be heard. Gave roughly 80-250hz a bit of a boost as well, so the kick drums I was missing with the old speakers are back in force
I have a few serious bass tracks I use just for testing purposes... there's something in the driver's door that really doesn't like those cranked up! I'll have to start tying stuff down and adding a bit more deadening next time I take the card off, but no rush 'cos it doesn't mind American Idiot at max
I have a few serious bass tracks I use just for testing purposes... there's something in the driver's door that really doesn't like those cranked up! I'll have to start tying stuff down and adding a bit more deadening next time I take the card off, but no rush 'cos it doesn't mind American Idiot at max
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