Trackers

[economicpygmy]

I'm looking for a tracker for my camper van.
Given how vulnerable GNSS is, I'm failing to see much point unless it has an alternate band/protocol i.e. VHF.
From the following, it seems like only Tracker UK are the only ones to offer such a service; is that true?
And does anyone have any experience or tips?

ScorpionTrack
Smartrack
Tracker UK
Meta Trak
Vodafone
TrackStar
AutoWatch

Aside: Reading previous threads, I can spot a trend of 'why bother' so to answer that up front:
- When finished the van will be of the value that insurance will require one.
- As a self build you cant get the hours back so Id want it back.
- Supply chain issues have resulted in new vans having massive lead times with this spec, with second hand vans being difficult to source, so Id want it back.

[threespires]

Explain GNSS

[Grumps.]

economicpygmy said:

I'm looking for a tracker for my camper van.
Given how vulnerable GNSS is, I'm failing to see much point unless it has an alternate band/protocol i.e. VHF.
From the following, it seems like only Tracker UK are the only ones to offer such a service; is that true?
And does anyone have any experience or tips?

ScorpionTrack
Smartrack
Tracker UK
Meta Trak
Vodafone
TrackStar
AutoWatch

Aside: Reading previous threads, I can spot a trend of 'why bother' so to answer that up front:
- When finished the van will be of the value that insurance will require one.
- As a self build you cant get the hours back so Id want it back.
- Supply chain issues have resulted in new vans having massive lead times with this spec, with second hand vans being difficult to source, so Id want it back.

If your insurance company require one, I am sure they will give you a list of approved brands.

Try talking to them.

[b0rk]

If you’re worried about GNSS blocking then VHF blocking of the frequency Tracker use is equally simple. Ofcom publish the frequency FYI and plenty of Chinese blockers support “lowjack” blocking.

The GNSS units will have a data connection 3G/4G/5G to transmit the location back to vendor.
VHF requires a vehicle or fixed reader within range to receive the signal.

[economicpygmy]

threespires said:

Explain GNSS

Global Navigation Satellite Systems I.e. what's commonly referred to as GPS (USA), although the receivers in your phone and other devices will most likely also use other constellations that cover the world: Galileo (EU), GLONASS (Russia) and Beidou (China). Most marketing simply says GPS.

Grumps. said:

If your insurance company require one, I am sure they will give you a list of approved brands.
Try talking to them.

They can check a list and that's about it. They certainly don't understand which devices use non GNSS services and are very unlikely to understand value based decisions as to the technologies involved, hence asking on here ;-)

b0rk said:

VHF requires a vehicle or fixed reader within range to receive the signal.

Supposedly the police can track Tracker UK units.

b0rk said:

If you’re worried about GNSS blocking then VHF blocking of the frequency Tracker use is equally simple. Ofcom publish the frequency FYI and plenty of Chinese blockers support “lowjack” blocking.

I googled some for a laugh but its not like GNSS as most of those services are easily blocked as they are very low power, spread spectrum (buried in RF noise) and at 1.5GHz, unlike what I'm presuming is a narrow band <300MHz signal.

Ive just looked through the tables ( http://static.ofcom.org.uk/static/spectrum/fat.htm... ) to try and understand what techniques they might be using but couldn't find the band, well, not in the VHF band at least. If its a single frequency that's dumb, might as well not bother and would make my selection easier. However given Tracker UK advertise anti-jam, I would assume its frequency hopping or using another robustness technique, especially if its pattern is linked to the tracker. If it is, it would be difficult to jam without a) many transmitters hitting all the bands, lots of power if they are wide, or b) receive monitoring.

Ultimately what Im trying to get an idea of is, what's available, difficult when companies are understandably cagey about details and user experiences. E.g. have PHers had cars recovered..etc.

[b0rk]

Tracker is dual frequency 163.1625 MHz and 164.1750 MHz transmit enough white noise on said frequencies and you can drown the unit. About £400 for a Chinese origin blocker that does all the GNSS frequencies, 3G/4G/5G and anything LoJack based such as tracker UK. These things are basically high powered white noise emitters to raise the noise ratio above the capacity of a receiver to pick out a carrier signal.

Antiblock will I’d guess be the receiver units flagging uncoded noise on said frequencies.

Yes the police have the receivers in some cars and tracker have fitted fixed units to some trunk / motorway overbridges.

Edited by b0rk on Sunday 30th July 21:39

[economicpygmy]

b0rk said:

Tracker is dual frequency 163.1625 MHz and 164.1750 MHz transmit enough white noise on said frequencies and you can drown the unit. About £400 for a Chinese origin blocker that does all the GNSS frequencies, 3G/4G/5G and anything LoJack based such as tracker UK. These things are basically high powered white noise emitters to raise the noise ratio above the capacity of a receiver to pick out a carrier signal.

Antiblock will I’d guess be the receiver units flagging uncoded noise on said frequencies.

Yes the police have the receivers in some cars and tracker have fitted fixed units to some trunk / motorway overbridges.

Edited by b0rk on Sunday 30th July 21:39

Ah, so they use two frequencies in the 162.0375 - 174 MHz ISM band. Somewhat disappointing, what's the tracker going to do if the noise floor rises above a certain threshold, go to sleep periodically and transmit when the interference goes away; when its being loaded onboard a container ship lol.
Anti jam to me, for narrow band, means moving frequency to a clear channel at the least or FHSS. It would be so easy to make it a royal PITA for thieves but I suppose there are knock on consequences to the entire system and cost if they did that.
From the info you gave I've found the modulation details so I can estimate the effectiveness, well kind of.

[b0rk]

Yeah I agree on the anti-jam needing to be something more sophisticated. However the system as implemented is from the mid 70’’s. All the important patents have long since expired.

Couple of links for you, FCC declaration.
https://fccid.io/APV-VLU11B/User-Manual/Users-Manu...

Mid 80’s patent. Look at the prior and post art for more details.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4818998A/en?in...

I suspect from this you can figure out all the bits you are interested in.

[economicpygmy]

thanks, that's great and all makes sense

[TheConsultant]

Was just about to start a thread on trackers but this was top of the forum and so I figured I would add to this one instead!

I'm picking up a new BMW in a few weeks, and one or two of the insurance quotes I was given mandated the use of a Cat 5 tracker. Upon mentioning this to the supplying dealer, they pointed out that Trackstar is the only tracker that's approved by BMW and won't cause any warranty issues.

Regardless of insurance requirements (not all policies required a tracker), my immediate thoughts were that it would be sensible for the peace of mind. Then I read some of the feedback and reviews about Trackstar as a company and all the problems with their customer service and dodgy app, and reconsidered. In addition, Trackstar have stopped doing their S5 tracker with added immobiliser. Like many, I don't particularly want the stolen car back if it's been ragged and abused by thieves, but preventing or being immediately alerted about a theft would be worthwhile.

The car is mostly garaged and I work from home, so I'm not concerned about the risk of the house being broken into and being threatened over any immobilisation as the car is out of sight for most of the time (and such events are pretty unheard of around here). The added peace of mind would be from the occasional times it's parked at an office or hotel car park, I could relax knowing that it was immobilised without the driver identification tags.

So, having never really had to research trackers before, it makes me wonder:

• Although trackers can be jammed, presumably those with the immobilisation feature are still effective at preventing the car starting when the driver ID tags are not present?
• Which Cat 5+ (with immobilisation) trackers are considered the best? Any resources or independent reviews of such things? Everything I can find in this space is trying to sell me something.
• Maybe a Ghost would be more suited for my needs? (Although I've heard these can cause issues when it comes to BMW servicing and can also be circumvented, however I imagine that requires pretty niche and specialist skill sets and equipment for the thieves and 99% would give up and run away when they can't get it started via whatever means they attempt?)

[economicpygmy]

TheConsultant said:

they pointed out that Trackstar is the only tracker that's approved by BMW and won't cause any warranty issues.

Its only a warranty issue if its reasonable to conclude it can cause the issue. Lets assume you have a mechanical problem, not reasonable. Lets assume you have starting issues, the ignition won't turn on, not unreasonable as some of these tracker/immobilisers with tags or phone connectivity may be connected to the vehicles CAN-bus. If you have an issue like that, the first thing to do would be to disconnect it, then see if the problem goes away (or thats what I would do). If it doesn't, you'd then chuck it back at BMW to fix.

TheConsultant said:

Although trackers can be jammed, presumably those with the immobilisation feature are still effective at preventing the car starting when the driver ID tags are not present?

Yes. They would have to find the device to interfere with it physically. A jammer on the dashboard would not affect the immobilisation feature.

TheConsultant said:

Maybe a Ghost would be more suited for my needs? (Although I've heard these can cause issues when it comes to BMW servicing and can also be circumvented, however I imagine that requires pretty niche and specialist skill sets and equipment for the thieves and 99% would give up and run away when they can't get it started via whatever means they attempt?)

The board is tiny and can be installed in a place that would be a royal PITA to find. I believe its installed on the body bus which goes all over the car.
From what I've read, you can disable the device for servicing. I'm quite tempted by one too.

TheConsultant said:

feedback and reviews about Trackstar as a company and all the problems with their customer service and dodgy app,

Tracker UK is the same; not convinced! Check out the app rating... oh dear.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com....

[Jules Sunley]

I have a had a Tracker UK battery powered Tracker on a couple of cars, installed by them. I like the peace of mind and being battery powered (it lasts 5 years, then you throw it away and get another one) there is no tapping into the loom and no battery drain of the car. This to me seemed the best compromise.

Edited by Jules Sunley on Sunday 6th August 00:30

[b0rk]

Most of the major tracker brands have a service mode which can be enabled in app. Should you not want to pass the ADR fob over to the garage.

The trackstar unit is surprisingly large about the same size as a large hardback book. We use them for corporate car and plant tracking so have a box of spares hence having seen the physical unit. Always installed somewhere in the front console FYI. Installers have a guide with locations for many cars.

Ghost is physically very small so harder to locate. Just an FYI but the leads come unterminated so the installer either has to fit a pass through connectors or they’ll splice the canbus loom.

[TheConsultant]

Thanks all for the feedback. So it sounds like a Cat5+ tracker with immobiliser (or a Ghost) is definitely worth considering - and not a Trackstar given the size of the kit and the appalling customer service reviews.

So I'm still wondering what the best (or perhaps, least worst!) tracker + immobiliser is - as mentioned it's really hard to find any objective comparison between them. Naturally the details are relatively clandestine and there's not much in the way of reviews that doesn't seem sales-motivated to push a particular product. Any good resources on this topic - websites or youtrube channels - in terms of tracker or Ghost reviews, pros, cons, effectiveness, etc?

[b0rk]

Well Ghost isn't Cat S5 so if your insurer wants a Cat S5 system then it is not suitable.

https://www.thatcham.org/thatcham-security-certifi... << check for Autowatch UK for Ghost.

Meta Trak S5 Deadlock, ScorpionTrack S5 PLUS, or Smartrack iMOB S5 PLUS have tracker + immobiliser options. Meta Trak is press a button on the ADR fob to disable the immobiliser, ScorpionTrack and Smartrack use presence of the ADR fob to disable the immobiliser.

Unit sizes vary between large smartphone to old cassette tape, S5 systems must have an integral battery backup which limits the minimum size. The installer will put the unit somewhere in/behind the front console to both get line of sight for the antenni (GNSS+4G) and reliably detect the ADR fob.

Autowatch UK the importers/distributors of Ghost hold TASSA approval which some insurers recognise, best to check before purchasing.

Edited by b0rk on Tuesday 8th August 00:11

[TheConsultant]

Thanks b0rk, very helpful. There isn't any insurance requirement right now with the policy I'm planning on getting, but am motivated on the immobilisation front for my own peace of mind - would rather prevent the theft in the first place than have it stolen and recovered. Quite like the look of the MetaTrak S5 deadlock product and the ability to immobilise it completely even with the tag present.

Also been seeing quite a bit pop up for the Pandora alarms/immobiliser/tracker products, however they don't seem to be insurance/Thatcham certified and once again hard to find any objective reports on the system. But from what I can gather, their system is a physical immobiliser rather than a digital one, so even if it's located and ripped out, the car still won't start. Haven't yet managed to find out whether the same applies to the MetaTrak Deadlock.

[Tea Pot One]

TheConsultant said:

Thanks b0rk, very helpful. There isn't any insurance requirement right now with the policy I'm planning on getting, but am motivated on the immobilisation front for my own peace of mind - would rather prevent the theft in the first place than have it stolen and recovered. Quite like the look of the MetaTrak S5 deadlock product and the ability to immobilise it completely even with the tag present.

Also been seeing quite a bit pop up for the Pandora alarms/immobiliser/tracker products, however they don't seem to be insurance/Thatcham certified and once again hard to find any objective reports on the system. But from what I can gather, their system is a physical immobiliser rather than a digital one, so even if it's located and ripped out, the car still won't start. Haven't yet managed to find out whether the same applies to the MetaTrak Deadlock.

The Meta S5 Deadlock just needs the fob present to disarm the immobiliser. It doesn’t need any button press. I know as had one for 4 years and it is a great bit of kit. It worked faultlessly. I stupidly left it in the car when I sold it. The tracking unit and immobiliser link to each other by Bluetooth I think but are totally separate, so if one unit is found the other is not near. The Meta tracker was far smaller than a Tracker.co.uk unit I’d had previously and hated due to battery drain and false alarms. No such issues with the Meta . I might get one fitted to my current car but atm cba as it is not as nickable as my old one.

[TheConsultant]

Tea Pot One said:

The Meta S5 Deadlock just needs the fob present to disarm the immobiliser. It doesn’t need any button press. I know as had one for 4 years and it is a great bit of kit. It worked faultlessly. I stupidly left it in the car when I sold it. The tracking unit and immobiliser link to each other by Bluetooth I think but are totally separate, so if one unit is found the other is not near. The Meta tracker was far smaller than a Tracker.co.uk unit I’d had previously and hated due to battery drain and false alarms. No such issues with the Meta . I might get one fitted to my current car but atm cba as it is not as nickable as my old one.

Yeah, it does sound like a good bit of kit, I think I'm going to go ahead with one.

My biggest dilemma now is how to find the right installer that will take really good and meticulous care in fitting it - with it being a brand new car I don't want the dashboard left creaking or with poorly fitted clips, or any mess made of wiring that will cause any issues under warranty.

Use an accredited installer from the MetaTrak website? (Although I'm not sure what checks of quality or competence are done in order to become an accredited installer).
Word of mouth and local recommendations from groups and communities?
Nationwide services such as ineedatracker.com?

[MikeGTi]

Whereabouts are you based?

I had an S5 Deadlock Pro installed in mine from new and haven't had any squeaks or rattles. Happy to pass the details of the guy that installed it, if he's local of course

[TheConsultant]

MikeGTi said:

Whereabouts are you based?

I had an S5 Deadlock Pro installed in mine from new and haven't had any squeaks or rattles. Happy to pass the details of the guy that installed it, if he's local of course

Many thanks, but I'm in NE England and I see you're in Surrey, so sadly not really a viable option

Very happy to receive recommendations of NE installers though, who are well-regarded and trusted by enthusiasts and petrolheads.