Factory Vs aftermarket audio options.
Discussion
I've been looking about for a new car for a while now, and good quality audio is high on the list of must haves. It is however, one of several options I'd like on the next car which will be some estate of anything up to 5-6 years old.
Considering the likes of the A6, 5 series, Passat, Superb etc you get the idea.
The factory options come from the likes of Bose, HK, Dynaudio and Canton and while a lot of A6s seem to have Bose, not many Passat or Superbs have their upgraded packages specced up.
In the pursuit of widening the net, I wondered whether it's still feasible to go aftermarket these days, given that manufacturers install systems which are impossible to replace? The only thing potentially swappable would be speakers and mass loading panels to reduce resonance.
For the audiophiles amongst, do you still look at aftermarket kits for modern stuff?
Considering the likes of the A6, 5 series, Passat, Superb etc you get the idea.
The factory options come from the likes of Bose, HK, Dynaudio and Canton and while a lot of A6s seem to have Bose, not many Passat or Superbs have their upgraded packages specced up.
In the pursuit of widening the net, I wondered whether it's still feasible to go aftermarket these days, given that manufacturers install systems which are impossible to replace? The only thing potentially swappable would be speakers and mass loading panels to reduce resonance.
For the audiophiles amongst, do you still look at aftermarket kits for modern stuff?
My Skoda has a very integrated stereo like a lot of modern stuff. I used an Audison Bit10 Digital Signal Processor, which gives line out outputs for amps and lets you tune out any signal manipulation from the OE HU, as well as time delay, equalizer etc.
Install thread here: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/473175-proje... from about a third of the way down page 1.
You should be able to do something very similar in most cars once you can find the main plug (and confirm the correct pin-outs!) for the OE stereo.
Install thread here: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/473175-proje... from about a third of the way down page 1.
You should be able to do something very similar in most cars once you can find the main plug (and confirm the correct pin-outs!) for the OE stereo.
defblade said:
My Skoda has a very integrated stereo like a lot of modern stuff. I used an Audison Bit10 Digital Signal Processor, which gives line out outputs for amps and lets you tune out any signal manipulation from the OE HU, as well as time delay, equalizer etc.
Install thread here: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/473175-proje... from about a third of the way down page 1.
You should be able to do something very similar in most cars once you can find the main plug (and confirm the correct pin-outs!) for the OE stereo.
That's a tidy installation! Must be like night and day to the sound quality, even just mass loading and directing the sound?Install thread here: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/473175-proje... from about a third of the way down page 1.
You should be able to do something very similar in most cars once you can find the main plug (and confirm the correct pin-outs!) for the OE stereo.
Chicken Chaser said:
That's a tidy installation! Must be like night and day to the sound quality, even just mass loading and directing the sound?
Yes, tbf, it was pretty good after I'd mounted the fronts and was just running them from the HU for a bit until I got the rest done. But as I mention in the build, it really points up the lack of proper bass. Probably still worth doing, even if you don't want to go further at the moment.I would just add about clipping, in case you don't know: most HUs will let you turn the volume up past the point where their amps can cope, which flattens off the tops and bottoms of the sound waves... which wrecks speakers. And it wrecks nicer speakers more quickly than the cheap junk that comes in as OE! So, for example, I can't go above about half way on the volume on the HU, even with all the other bits downstream... which is another thing the Bit10 helps with - it has clipping indicators on the inputs. Otherwise, you can find out where your HU starts to clip by playing a 1KHz test tone through it (which is quite unpleasant to listen to, especially as the volume increases) - it will suddenly take on a much harsher/metallic edge - that's clipping... never turn your HU past that point.
defblade said:
My Skoda has a very integrated stereo like a lot of modern stuff. I used an Audison Bit10 Digital Signal Processor, which gives line out outputs for amps and lets you tune out any signal manipulation from the OE HU, as well as time delay, equalizer etc.
Install thread here: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/473175-proje... from about a third of the way down page 1.
You should be able to do something very similar in most cars once you can find the main plug (and confirm the correct pin-outs!) for the OE stereo.
Nice!! I’ve got a Pioneer P99RS to fit to the saab but it’s a fair bit of work, basically needs to bypass the entire set up and run and independent system, plus never really looks a clean instal, no fascia kits etc, maybe the bit10 will be a better solution, it’s a fibre optic system though so not sure how it’ll all come together yet. Install thread here: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/473175-proje... from about a third of the way down page 1.
You should be able to do something very similar in most cars once you can find the main plug (and confirm the correct pin-outs!) for the OE stereo.
I only want to run a pair of 6.5’s in the doors and tweets in the dash plus small Sq sub in the boot, was thinking of Audison Voce’s up front not sure on a sub yet, maybe a focal or nice Morel. Amps are old 90’s Denon DCA800 & RF Punch 40i.
Pain in the arse this thing to upgrade! I’ve only added an Amazon Echo auto so far to bring it a bit more up to date (pretty good as it goes!)
griffin dai said:
defblade said:
My Skoda has a very integrated stereo like a lot of modern stuff. I used an Audison Bit10 Digital Signal Processor, which gives line out outputs for amps and lets you tune out any signal manipulation from the OE HU, as well as time delay, equalizer etc.
Install thread here: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/473175-proje... from about a third of the way down page 1.
You should be able to do something very similar in most cars once you can find the main plug (and confirm the correct pin-outs!) for the OE stereo.
Nice!! I’ve got a Pioneer P99RS to fit to the saab but it’s a fair bit of work, basically needs to bypass the entire set up and run and independent system, plus never really looks a clean instal, no fascia kits etc, maybe the bit10 will be a better solution, it’s a fibre optic system though so not sure how it’ll all come together yet. Install thread here: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/473175-proje... from about a third of the way down page 1.
You should be able to do something very similar in most cars once you can find the main plug (and confirm the correct pin-outs!) for the OE stereo.
I only want to run a pair of 6.5’s in the doors and tweets in the dash plus small Sq sub in the boot, was thinking of Audison Voce’s up front not sure on a sub yet, maybe a focal or nice Morel. Amps are old 90’s Denon DCA800 & RF Punch 40i.
Pain in the arse this thing to upgrade! I’ve only added an Amazon Echo auto so far to bring it a bit more up to date (pretty good as it goes!)
I had the 80prs in my old 9-3, really nice HU. Ran active as well with some Focal 165kp’s & a DLS A7. Should have kept that A7 it was a beast!!
I’ll do some more digging into the Bit Ten, I’ve got everything here really to run a single din set up but it’s a ton of work on these things
I’ll do some more digging into the Bit Ten, I’ve got everything here really to run a single din set up but it’s a ton of work on these things
griffin dai said:
I had the 80prs in my old 9-3, really nice HU. Ran active as well with some Focal 165kp’s & a DLS A7. Should have kept that A7 it was a beast!!
I’ll do some more digging into the Bit Ten, I’ve got everything here really to run a single din set up but it’s a ton of work on these things
I'd want to just ditch/ignore all the OEM set up and install everything fresh. Not as easy as that on newer cars though. I want to replace the HU on my wife's Cayenne but the HU also controls all the onboard computer outputs too. Didn't seem worth it just to add DAB, Phone connectivity and a better NAV. I'm considering a Lexus as my next car and even though they come with the Mark Levinson setup, I'm sure my current system is much better but I expected dealing with the whole integrated OEM setup will be a ball ache.I’ll do some more digging into the Bit Ten, I’ve got everything here really to run a single din set up but it’s a ton of work on these things
If audio quality is of prime importance, then try and listen to a Volvo V90 with the Bowers & Wilkins set up. The standard set was head and shoulders over any other car I'd experienced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-dvqvbucxI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-dvqvbucxI
Mammasaid said:
If audio quality is of prime importance, then try and listen to a Volvo V90 with the Bowers & Wilkins set up. The standard set was head and shoulders over any other car I'd experienced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-dvqvbucxI
Yes but no.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-dvqvbucxI
Better than most OEM set ups, most definitely. Better than something aftermarket? Not really.
TEKNOPUG said:
I'd want to just ditch/ignore all the OEM set up and install everything fresh. Not as easy as that on newer cars though. I want to replace the HU on my wife's Cayenne but the HU also controls all the onboard computer outputs too. Didn't seem worth it just to add DAB, Phone connectivity and a better NAV. I'm considering a Lexus as my next car and even though they come with the Mark Levinson setup, I'm sure my current system is much better but I expected dealing with the whole integrated OEM setup will be a ball ache.
I’ve got some time next month I might just fit this 99rs, it’s a ball ache basically a whole new system so all interior out and run new wiring everywhere. Only issue I’ve got is I don’t have the auto tune mic for it, that was great on the 80prs got me around 90% there then just some fine tuning to get it right. How do you find the Audisons? I’ve got Sinfoni S series 3 ways here but they’re massive, not a drop in fit so needs a door & dash build. Up for sale anyway and I’ll get the Audisons!
They're very good. Huge magnets on the drivers and large chassis. Barely fitted in my Impreza doors, literally mm after trimming the inside of the door cards. Check their measurements before buying!
The autotune is OK, saves a bit of time. Probably wouldn't bother running it again as it's pretty quick to set up from scratch.
I have the settings from my car recorded if you want some base settings to work from?
The autotune is OK, saves a bit of time. Probably wouldn't bother running it again as it's pretty quick to set up from scratch.
I have the settings from my car recorded if you want some base settings to work from?
Not a problem. The manufacturers must have really killed off the car audio market given that the head units are so integrated. I've been looking at Passats but hardly any of the R Lines I've found have the Audison set up so wanted to find out whether or not I could get anywhere with speaker upgrades etc. The Head Unit won't be going anywhere. Similarly Skoda Superb Sportlines don't often have Canton. I seem to find Audi has Bose most of the time but then the B&O setup must have been the more expensive option.
Chicken Chaser said:
The manufacturers must have really killed off the car audio market given that the head units are so integrated.
It's not just head units. Some of the speaker set-ups are specifically engineered to fit into awkward bits of the car. Bass units in door cavities; tweeters in the corners of the dash or door tops.If you want best practicable sound quality it's often best these days just to find a car with the best stereo offered by the manufacturer.
Chicken Chaser said:
Not a problem. The manufacturers must have really killed off the car audio market given that the head units are so integrated. I've been looking at Passats but hardly any of the R Lines I've found have the Audison set up so wanted to find out whether or not I could get anywhere with speaker upgrades etc. The Head Unit won't be going anywhere. Similarly Skoda Superb Sportlines don't often have Canton. I seem to find Audi has Bose most of the time but then the B&O setup must have been the more expensive option.
There are still many cars that have effectively a double din HU which can be replaced. Most aftermarket options are now concentrated on DSPs and amps that integrate into OEM set ups. I think the big issue are things like the Bose/B&W/HK OEM set ups are more quantity than quality. You don't need 14 speakers! It's mainly so that you have decent audio from all seating positions (who really cares about kids in the back or occasional rear passengers?) and so they can offer surround sound and other gimmicks. For great audio hifi in a car all you really need are 5 speakers, maybe 7. Also, all those speakers in the OEM configs will be cheap in terms of what you can pay for aftermarket. Maybe £100 a set. Probably not even that. TBF, most cars probably have £10-£20 speakers but £100 is basically the starting point for basic aftermarket speakers. It's no different to home hifi - you can spend £50 on speakers or £50k! The same applies to amplifiers, wiring, install etc. You could build an aftermarket setup for half the price of optioning an upgraded system on a new car that would blow it out of the water.
For people not really interested in SQ, new cars are so much better than ones even 5 years ago. For people who do care though, it's a lot more complicated to achieve great results on modern cars. Either physical constraints of how the hardware is mounted or all the integration, fibre optics etc.
My opinion, as I've just made this decision.
I've bought an older merc, without Carplay. I really miss this, so getting it retrofitted was a priority. Looked at replacement head units, though was always going to have complications with CANBUS, steering wheel controls, reverse camera and fibre-optic link to factory HK amp. None of which were showstoppers, but all added complication. And the Screen would still be near my knee.
So ive gone for an android screen (and later model factory mount) set on the dash. It's harness sits between the original radio and the car, so I retain the standard head unit and all functions. It feeds into the audio in on the radio, so sound should be the same. And it can mirror the original head unit, so reverse camera will display on both screens...
Sound like a perfect compromise to me. Lets see how I get on...
I've bought an older merc, without Carplay. I really miss this, so getting it retrofitted was a priority. Looked at replacement head units, though was always going to have complications with CANBUS, steering wheel controls, reverse camera and fibre-optic link to factory HK amp. None of which were showstoppers, but all added complication. And the Screen would still be near my knee.
So ive gone for an android screen (and later model factory mount) set on the dash. It's harness sits between the original radio and the car, so I retain the standard head unit and all functions. It feeds into the audio in on the radio, so sound should be the same. And it can mirror the original head unit, so reverse camera will display on both screens...
Sound like a perfect compromise to me. Lets see how I get on...
TEKNOPUG said:
There are still many cars that have effectively a double din HU which can be replaced. Most aftermarket options are now concentrated on DSPs and amps that integrate into OEM set ups. I think the big issue are things like the Bose/B&W/HK OEM set ups are more quantity than quality. You don't need 14 speakers! It's mainly so that you have decent audio from all seating positions (who really cares about kids in the back or occasional rear passengers?) and so they can offer surround sound and other gimmicks.
For great audio hifi in a car all you really need are 5 speakers, maybe 7. Also, all those speakers in the OEM configs will be cheap in terms of what you can pay for aftermarket. Maybe £100 a set. Probably not even that. TBF, most cars probably have £10-£20 speakers but £100 is basically the starting point for basic aftermarket speakers. It's no different to home hifi - you can spend £50 on speakers or £50k! The same applies to amplifiers, wiring, install etc. You could build an aftermarket setup for half the price of optioning an upgraded system on a new car that would blow it out of the water.
For people not really interested in SQ, new cars are so much better than ones even 5 years ago. For people who do care though, it's a lot more complicated to achieve great results on modern cars. Either physical constraints of how the hardware is mounted or all the integration, fibre optics etc.
Aren't cars typically horrible audio environments due to background noise and speaker positioning meaning bad audio clarity? Not to mention the quality of the hardware themselves. For great audio hifi in a car all you really need are 5 speakers, maybe 7. Also, all those speakers in the OEM configs will be cheap in terms of what you can pay for aftermarket. Maybe £100 a set. Probably not even that. TBF, most cars probably have £10-£20 speakers but £100 is basically the starting point for basic aftermarket speakers. It's no different to home hifi - you can spend £50 on speakers or £50k! The same applies to amplifiers, wiring, install etc. You could build an aftermarket setup for half the price of optioning an upgraded system on a new car that would blow it out of the water.
For people not really interested in SQ, new cars are so much better than ones even 5 years ago. For people who do care though, it's a lot more complicated to achieve great results on modern cars. Either physical constraints of how the hardware is mounted or all the integration, fibre optics etc.
If Range Rover or Jaguar or Audi or whomever didn't need 12,13,14+ speakers then I doubt they would, the cost and R&D wouldn't be worth it, I watched a documentary about developing the audio platform in some car and it appeared to be a lot of works.
Gone are the days of 4 speakers, one in each door card. Times have changed. Having 2 or 3 "levels" of speakers across the door cards surely helps by actually projecting the noise out in a better fashion.
I have a 530e and I have the B&W setup. I tried it and also tried the "standard" system as well as the HK. B&W blows the others out of the water.
I could potentially have gotten an "aftermarket" setup but I couldn't be bothered with the hassle, it's probably not that much more expensive it at all, to have built an equivalent system that works exactly as the OEM intended.
CarCrazyDad said:
TEKNOPUG said:
There are still many cars that have effectively a double din HU which can be replaced. Most aftermarket options are now concentrated on DSPs and amps that integrate into OEM set ups. I think the big issue are things like the Bose/B&W/HK OEM set ups are more quantity than quality. You don't need 14 speakers! It's mainly so that you have decent audio from all seating positions (who really cares about kids in the back or occasional rear passengers?) and so they can offer surround sound and other gimmicks.
For great audio hifi in a car all you really need are 5 speakers, maybe 7. Also, all those speakers in the OEM configs will be cheap in terms of what you can pay for aftermarket. Maybe £100 a set. Probably not even that. TBF, most cars probably have £10-£20 speakers but £100 is basically the starting point for basic aftermarket speakers. It's no different to home hifi - you can spend £50 on speakers or £50k! The same applies to amplifiers, wiring, install etc. You could build an aftermarket setup for half the price of optioning an upgraded system on a new car that would blow it out of the water.
For people not really interested in SQ, new cars are so much better than ones even 5 years ago. For people who do care though, it's a lot more complicated to achieve great results on modern cars. Either physical constraints of how the hardware is mounted or all the integration, fibre optics etc.
Aren't cars typically horrible audio environments due to background noise and speaker positioning meaning bad audio clarity? Not to mention the quality of the hardware themselves. For great audio hifi in a car all you really need are 5 speakers, maybe 7. Also, all those speakers in the OEM configs will be cheap in terms of what you can pay for aftermarket. Maybe £100 a set. Probably not even that. TBF, most cars probably have £10-£20 speakers but £100 is basically the starting point for basic aftermarket speakers. It's no different to home hifi - you can spend £50 on speakers or £50k! The same applies to amplifiers, wiring, install etc. You could build an aftermarket setup for half the price of optioning an upgraded system on a new car that would blow it out of the water.
For people not really interested in SQ, new cars are so much better than ones even 5 years ago. For people who do care though, it's a lot more complicated to achieve great results on modern cars. Either physical constraints of how the hardware is mounted or all the integration, fibre optics etc.
If Range Rover or Jaguar or Audi or whomever didn't need 12,13,14+ speakers then I doubt they would, the cost and R&D wouldn't be worth it, I watched a documentary about developing the audio platform in some car and it appeared to be a lot of works.
Gone are the days of 4 speakers, one in each door card. Times have changed. Having 2 or 3 "levels" of speakers across the door cards surely helps by actually projecting the noise out in a better fashion.
I have a 530e and I have the B&W setup. I tried it and also tried the "standard" system as well as the HK. B&W blows the others out of the water.
I could potentially have gotten an "aftermarket" setup but I couldn't be bothered with the hassle, it's probably not that much more expensive it at all, to have built an equivalent system that works exactly as the OEM intended.
Obviously in a car you can't physically move the speakers to their ideal positions - you'd have them on brackets hanging off the front wings. You typically have one next to your right leg and then another 3 feet away from you. Not to mention all the interference from the interior. What you can do though is use a DSP with time alignment and virtually move the speakers, thus creating proper hi-fi stereo imagery, where the music converges front and centre (typically about 6 inches the other side of the windscreen...)
Going back to the home hifi, you have 4-6 speakers (or 4 with a sub - 2.1 system). Why don't you have 14 speakers at home? Or 20? Why don't you have loads of speakers behind you? If you want to listen to surround sound on a movie, sure. But the vast majority of music is recorded in stereo. Having additional speakers around you will screw up that stereo imagery. They simply aren't required. At best they just add volume. Which could easily be achieved by using more powerful amps and better speakers in the first place.
So why do they have so many speakers in cars?
So that the audio can sound good from all seating positions = Largely irrelevant. As the owner and driver, audio quality from the driver's seat is paramount to me.
So that you can have "surround sound" and other audio settings = superfluous. Music is recorded and intended to be played in stereo.
To increase the volume = just fit better speakers and amps, rather than lots of speakers that ruin the soundstage
Because it helps to sell cars - more speakers equals "better" and justifies the mark up on the audio upgrade = most certainly this.
Because high power amps sells cars and the more speakers used, the less wattage per speaker and the cheaper each speaker can be = again, this.
From the perspective of sitting in the driver's seat and listening to music, 2 ~6.5" mids, a pair of 2" tweeters, 1 10-12" sub, decent HU, DSP and amps all properly installed is all you'll ever need. You could run additional 4" drivers if you have room in the doors. Any other speakers (and especially any mounted behind you are totally unnecessary and more likely to have a negative effect).
That's not to say that audio offered in OEM can't sound good, great even. But it's a compromise and could quite easily sound a lot better for a lot less.
Edited by TEKNOPUG on Thursday 7th October 16:04
In addition, you have to consider who the car manufacturers are using for their upgrade systems.
B&W, Bose, HK etc.
None of these are traditional auto audio companies. In fact, I doubt they even produce a range of audio equipment that you can buy individually. They do however, have "prestige" as audio brands that the wider public will be aware of. Why not have Sony or Pioneer design and build your car audio systems? After all, they both have a long history of developing high end audio systems? Because they are not seen as "prestige" brands.
Or why not use actual "prestige" auto audio companies like Audison, Morrell, Symphonia, Focal, DLS, Alpine etc? Because they are mostly unknown to the public and would no doubt want to use equipment from their current line-ups, which would be expensive and cut into car manufacturers profit. They also probably don't have the manufacturing capacity to produce the number of units required to VAG for example.
So you have a system designed by a "prestige" home audio company but what are the quality of the components? They aren't sold individually, so there are no comprehensive specs for them. Are they even made by the audio company? Are they mass-produced by a 3rd party?
Ultimately the vast majority of the public have never heard a decent aftermarket set up. So anything better than the traditional 15W HU and tiny cheap speakers will sound great. It's also an easy sell "Ooooh Bose 14 speaker 1200W system - that must be good" tick the £2k option box, compared to "Focal? Who are they? And only 5 speakers? Pfft! I won't bother".
B&W, Bose, HK etc.
None of these are traditional auto audio companies. In fact, I doubt they even produce a range of audio equipment that you can buy individually. They do however, have "prestige" as audio brands that the wider public will be aware of. Why not have Sony or Pioneer design and build your car audio systems? After all, they both have a long history of developing high end audio systems? Because they are not seen as "prestige" brands.
Or why not use actual "prestige" auto audio companies like Audison, Morrell, Symphonia, Focal, DLS, Alpine etc? Because they are mostly unknown to the public and would no doubt want to use equipment from their current line-ups, which would be expensive and cut into car manufacturers profit. They also probably don't have the manufacturing capacity to produce the number of units required to VAG for example.
So you have a system designed by a "prestige" home audio company but what are the quality of the components? They aren't sold individually, so there are no comprehensive specs for them. Are they even made by the audio company? Are they mass-produced by a 3rd party?
Ultimately the vast majority of the public have never heard a decent aftermarket set up. So anything better than the traditional 15W HU and tiny cheap speakers will sound great. It's also an easy sell "Ooooh Bose 14 speaker 1200W system - that must be good" tick the £2k option box, compared to "Focal? Who are they? And only 5 speakers? Pfft! I won't bother".
Gassing Station | In-Car Electronics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff