Porsche Boxster S audio upgrade advice sought
Discussion
I've had my 2014 Boxster S for a couple of years, and for even longer if you count the previous 2012 981 Boxster S that I owned for only a few months before it was written off. Both cars had PCM and the Sound Package Plus, although the second car sounds infinitely better than the first car which was very Fisher Price - the reasons for which I can't explain. But I'm still disappointed by the sound of the audio system. Yes, it's a soft top car with a glorious engine and exhaust sound, but there are times when I just want to enjoy some music and I can't because the audio system is too feeble. My old BMW is fitted with the Harman/Kardon system 10-speaker system, and while it was never amazing, it had the power to allow me to really enjoy some music. I listen to everything from classical to blues to rock and even some modern stuff, but it all sounds universally crap when at anything but the lowest volumes when road, wind and engine sound drown out the audio. I'd like to be able to rock out at motorway speeds with the top down, and that's just not feasible now. One thing I absolutely want to avoid is replacing the PCM head unit as I want to keep the car as standard-looking and working as possible and want to keep all the dash display screen integration.
I found a fairly local company called Cartronics, who claim to be able to retrofit either the factory Bose system or the Burmester system including all the re-coding necessary. They can also install a third-party system, taking the audio feed from the optical outputs as either Bose or Burmester systems would. This is what they've quoted for, and it seems like a mostly Audison based system but using the OEM Burmester subwoofer:
System as follows:
Front Door speakers, midrange/bass & tweeters. Audison component speakers
Rear speakers midrange/top. Audison speakers
Subwoofer (in factory position under dash). Factory Burmester subwoofer.
Optical adapter
Audison Prima Forza AP F8.9 amp. https://www.audison.eu/products/ap-f8-9-bit/
Sound matting
Cabling
Installation
Coding
Cost for above package £3900 fitted.
So seems even dearer than the premium to fit Burmester audio when ordering the car, and clearly there's no way I could audition such a system to work out if it would meet my needs. I think it would be likely far better than I need to get the results I'm after, so I'm wondering whether anyone has any comments on whether this would be worth the money, and what I could change to get a good upgrade without spending so much - I was hoping to spend no more than £2000! Alternatively, what would you do differently?
Thanks for any suggestions!
I found a fairly local company called Cartronics, who claim to be able to retrofit either the factory Bose system or the Burmester system including all the re-coding necessary. They can also install a third-party system, taking the audio feed from the optical outputs as either Bose or Burmester systems would. This is what they've quoted for, and it seems like a mostly Audison based system but using the OEM Burmester subwoofer:
System as follows:
Front Door speakers, midrange/bass & tweeters. Audison component speakers
Rear speakers midrange/top. Audison speakers
Subwoofer (in factory position under dash). Factory Burmester subwoofer.
Optical adapter
Audison Prima Forza AP F8.9 amp. https://www.audison.eu/products/ap-f8-9-bit/
Sound matting
Cabling
Installation
Coding
Cost for above package £3900 fitted.
So seems even dearer than the premium to fit Burmester audio when ordering the car, and clearly there's no way I could audition such a system to work out if it would meet my needs. I think it would be likely far better than I need to get the results I'm after, so I'm wondering whether anyone has any comments on whether this would be worth the money, and what I could change to get a good upgrade without spending so much - I was hoping to spend no more than £2000! Alternatively, what would you do differently?
Thanks for any suggestions!
Audison is a very good make. I have their Voce speakers up front, running 3-way active with 3 amps.
If you find the exact specs of the speakers, you can cost up the quote.
I would suggest that the rear speakers are superfluous. If you ditched those, you could use a smaller, cheaper amp such as the AP5.9.
That would probably save you a grand.
The rest comes down to install and how thorough they are. If they are building you custom speaker cabinet and door builds, along with high quality install components, then yes, it will cost a bit.
Alternatively, just give them your budget and see what they come up with?
If you find the exact specs of the speakers, you can cost up the quote.
I would suggest that the rear speakers are superfluous. If you ditched those, you could use a smaller, cheaper amp such as the AP5.9.
That would probably save you a grand.
The rest comes down to install and how thorough they are. If they are building you custom speaker cabinet and door builds, along with high quality install components, then yes, it will cost a bit.
Alternatively, just give them your budget and see what they come up with?
TEKNOPUG said:
Audison is a very good make. I have their Voce speakers up front, running 3-way active with 3 amps.
If you find the exact specs of the speakers, you can cost up the quote.
I would suggest that the rear speakers are superfluous. If you ditched those, you could use a smaller, cheaper amp such as the AP5.9.
That would probably save you a grand.
The rest comes down to install and how thorough they are. If they are building you custom speaker cabinet and door builds, along with high quality install components, then yes, it will cost a bit.
Alternatively, just give them your budget and see what they come up with?
Thanks for the advice. I've never heard of Audison so I had no idea if it's good stuff or not. One of the things I don't like about the sound system I have is that there's no sound behind me, so it feels more like listening to a ghetto blaster than being immersed in music. So I'm absolutely looking forward to having speakers in those empty grilled behind the seats. I'll have to find another way to save money.If you find the exact specs of the speakers, you can cost up the quote.
I would suggest that the rear speakers are superfluous. If you ditched those, you could use a smaller, cheaper amp such as the AP5.9.
That would probably save you a grand.
The rest comes down to install and how thorough they are. If they are building you custom speaker cabinet and door builds, along with high quality install components, then yes, it will cost a bit.
Alternatively, just give them your budget and see what they come up with?
The vast majority of music is recorded in stereo not 5.1. So you won't get surround sound imagining from stereo tracks, just more volume. If you go to a concert, the musicians are front and centre. This is how the music is recorded and intended to be reproduced.
This issue in cars is that the speakers are not positioned correctly to accurately reproduce the recording and create the stereo imaging effect. Speakers down by your ankles or off to one side. With modern DSPs you can use time alignment to delay the signal to each speaker. This has the effect of moving the speakers virtually, so that speakers appear to be 4ft either side of your head at a 45 degree angle. This creates stereo imaging that converges the sound from the speakers say, 18 inches in front of your face.
Typically you just need a pair of tweeter and mid speakers although you could have mid high and mid low but space becomes an issue. Frequencies below 100hz are non-directional, so you can mount a sub anywhere. Adding more speakers of the same frequency just adds volume and if you have speakers behind you, they negatively effect the stereo imagining effect.
It's personal preference but you can always add additional speakers at a later date.
This issue in cars is that the speakers are not positioned correctly to accurately reproduce the recording and create the stereo imaging effect. Speakers down by your ankles or off to one side. With modern DSPs you can use time alignment to delay the signal to each speaker. This has the effect of moving the speakers virtually, so that speakers appear to be 4ft either side of your head at a 45 degree angle. This creates stereo imaging that converges the sound from the speakers say, 18 inches in front of your face.
Typically you just need a pair of tweeter and mid speakers although you could have mid high and mid low but space becomes an issue. Frequencies below 100hz are non-directional, so you can mount a sub anywhere. Adding more speakers of the same frequency just adds volume and if you have speakers behind you, they negatively effect the stereo imagining effect.
It's personal preference but you can always add additional speakers at a later date.
TEKNOPUG said:
The vast majority of music is recorded in stereo not 5.1. So you won't get surround sound imagining from stereo tracks, just more volume. If you go to a concert, the musicians are front and centre. This is how the music is recorded and intended to be reproduced.
This issue in cars is that the speakers are not positioned correctly to accurately reproduce the recording and create the stereo imaging effect. Speakers down by your ankles or off to one side. With modern DSPs you can use time alignment to delay the signal to each speaker. This has the effect of moving the speakers virtually, so that speakers appear to be 4ft either side of your head at a 45 degree angle. This creates stereo imaging that converges the sound from the speakers say, 18 inches in front of your face.
Typically you just need a pair of tweeter and mid speakers although you could have mid high and mid low but space becomes an issue. Frequencies below 100hz are non-directional, so you can mount a sub anywhere. Adding more speakers of the same frequency just adds volume and if you have speakers behind you, they negatively effect the stereo imagining effect.
It's personal preference but you can always add additional speakers at a later date.
All of this. Ideally, you could close your eyes and place the band/orchestra on the bonnet and then point to where each instrument is. But cars are not great places for starting from for perfect sound quality, so some compromise is inevitable. This issue in cars is that the speakers are not positioned correctly to accurately reproduce the recording and create the stereo imaging effect. Speakers down by your ankles or off to one side. With modern DSPs you can use time alignment to delay the signal to each speaker. This has the effect of moving the speakers virtually, so that speakers appear to be 4ft either side of your head at a 45 degree angle. This creates stereo imaging that converges the sound from the speakers say, 18 inches in front of your face.
Typically you just need a pair of tweeter and mid speakers although you could have mid high and mid low but space becomes an issue. Frequencies below 100hz are non-directional, so you can mount a sub anywhere. Adding more speakers of the same frequency just adds volume and if you have speakers behind you, they negatively effect the stereo imagining effect.
It's personal preference but you can always add additional speakers at a later date.
"Rear fill" just muddies everything up. It's perfectly possible to have well staged, high SQ, music that you can barely hear yourself shout over in your car, but rear speakers are not the way to do it... good quality speakers, well mounted/sealed and plenty of deadening behind them are the key.
As you're already talking to fitters, I'd ask if they can give you a demo of a decent fronts+sub install before making your mind up.
LunarOne said:
Unless they have a 2-seat convertible demo car, is it likely they can give me a good idea of how the install would turn out? I did ask and they said they didn't have any similar cars to demonstrate, but apparently they have done Boxsters and Caymans before...
I'm thinking that as you're concerned that it'll feel like a ghetto blaster just having front speakers, listening to a properly staged set up (in any sort of car) would help you decide if you wanted to head that way... done well, it's really quite different to the effect you get from a standard car stereo system. Making it work in a 'vert is going to be more challenging to a point; racking up the power a few notches beyond what you might use in a tintop will help
; but ultimately it's about getting the sound to your ears at the right moment to create the effect no matter what sort of car. A decent fronts + sub install should really never leave you looking for more... even a simple fairly cheap 75-ish watts RMS fronts build, if installed well and setup to not clip (removing the main causes of distortion that help you identify something as "loud"), can make you surprised when you you turn to talk at a normal sort of volume to your passenger... and they can't hear you over the music
A large amount of the cost is installation Cost, about 50%
I installed an entire system myself in my 987S and R8 it really is very easy. Go online and see how much the hardware can be bought for and see if it tempts you. Removing a door skin on a 997 was 5 screws and a few poppers. Honestly anyone could do this type of installation it was easy, I paid £4K for a system in my Maserati before realising I could DIY for half the price.
If that’s not for you I would follow the suggestion above and ask them how much you could save on the rears. For me some rear ‘fill’ is essential and I don’t like not having it. I’ve tried without in many of my cars and it doesn’t sound right and that’s with the front properly set up with correct time alignment etc. What I would say is I have the rears so low that They don’t need to be high end speakers powered by an amp. Just use ok ones from Focal or similar powered from the head unit, that saves significantly.
Don’t worry too much about demo cars. It will be guaranteed to be a huge, massive improvement over the factory system and I have heard the Burmeister system is not all that anyway which hardly supposed me given the utter rubbish that was Bose in my 987 / 997 and B&O in my R8.
I installed an entire system myself in my 987S and R8 it really is very easy. Go online and see how much the hardware can be bought for and see if it tempts you. Removing a door skin on a 997 was 5 screws and a few poppers. Honestly anyone could do this type of installation it was easy, I paid £4K for a system in my Maserati before realising I could DIY for half the price.
If that’s not for you I would follow the suggestion above and ask them how much you could save on the rears. For me some rear ‘fill’ is essential and I don’t like not having it. I’ve tried without in many of my cars and it doesn’t sound right and that’s with the front properly set up with correct time alignment etc. What I would say is I have the rears so low that They don’t need to be high end speakers powered by an amp. Just use ok ones from Focal or similar powered from the head unit, that saves significantly.
Don’t worry too much about demo cars. It will be guaranteed to be a huge, massive improvement over the factory system and I have heard the Burmeister system is not all that anyway which hardly supposed me given the utter rubbish that was Bose in my 987 / 997 and B&O in my R8.
5 channel DSP amp is £600?
£400 for 6.5" mids and tweeters. The Prima ones are probably less.
£200 for cables and other parts.
That leaves £800 for install. If they are just making speaker rings for the mids and sticking the tweeters in the stock location, then £800 is more than enough. If they are doing custom door and Pillar builds then their quote may be higher.
£400 for 6.5" mids and tweeters. The Prima ones are probably less.
£200 for cables and other parts.
That leaves £800 for install. If they are just making speaker rings for the mids and sticking the tweeters in the stock location, then £800 is more than enough. If they are doing custom door and Pillar builds then their quote may be higher.
Thanks for the suggestions. While I have some technical nouse, I know nothing about car audio. The most I've ever done is wire in a fixed hands free kit with phone cradle which just required power and some simple antenna cabling. But I would need to figure out how to take an optical output and recode the car to give me more audio controls. The standard Sound Package Plus disables fader controls on the head unit. As I have little clue when it comes to ice and balancing signals and whatnot, I think I'd rather leave it to a professional who knows where to lace things and doesn't have to figure everything out from scratch!
I did lots of research for a hi-fi upgrade for my 981 GT4 but never got around to it. The speakers are an easy fit in the factory locations which minimises instillation costs. You should be able to cost all this up online.
http://www.audison.eu/index.php?page=productLine&a...
Audison Prima AP 8.9 Bit amplifier
Speaker Location Speaker Amp Channel Power
Front left 1” Tweeter in the dash Prima AP 1 Ch 1 35W
Front right 1” Tweeter in the dash Prima AP 1 Ch 2 35W
Front left 4” Mid in the door Prima AP 4 Ch 1 35W
Front right 4” Mid in the door Prima AP 4 Ch 2 35W
Front left 8” Woffer in the door Prima AP 8 Ch 3 & 4 bridged 70W
Front right 8” Woffer in the door Prima AP 8 Ch 5 & 6 bridged 70W
Front Centre 3” Mid in the dash Not used
Rear left Mid behind the seats Prima APX 4 Ch 7 35W
Rear right Mid behind the seats Prima APX 4 Ch 8 35W
The speakers will all fit in the factory speaker locations, the AP 8’s in the doors will require an adaptor ring but that’s no biggie.
The Amp is very small, it will fit in the factory amp location under the bonnet after the factory SPP amp is removed.
http://www.audison.eu/index.php?page=productLine&a...
Audison Prima AP 8.9 Bit amplifier
Speaker Location Speaker Amp Channel Power
Front left 1” Tweeter in the dash Prima AP 1 Ch 1 35W
Front right 1” Tweeter in the dash Prima AP 1 Ch 2 35W
Front left 4” Mid in the door Prima AP 4 Ch 1 35W
Front right 4” Mid in the door Prima AP 4 Ch 2 35W
Front left 8” Woffer in the door Prima AP 8 Ch 3 & 4 bridged 70W
Front right 8” Woffer in the door Prima AP 8 Ch 5 & 6 bridged 70W
Front Centre 3” Mid in the dash Not used
Rear left Mid behind the seats Prima APX 4 Ch 7 35W
Rear right Mid behind the seats Prima APX 4 Ch 8 35W
The speakers will all fit in the factory speaker locations, the AP 8’s in the doors will require an adaptor ring but that’s no biggie.
The Amp is very small, it will fit in the factory amp location under the bonnet after the factory SPP amp is removed.
paralla said:
I did lots of research for a hi-fi upgrade for my 981 GT4 but never got around to it. The speakers are an easy fit in the factory locations which minimises instillation costs. You should be able to cost all this up online.
Thanks for that Paralla! I do have the official 6081 page Porsche 981 (incl GT4) workshop manual as a 218MB PDF, so perhaps the audio systems are detailed within...... just checked and yes it's all in there. But they say you need PIWIS to read out values. I wonder why?
Your installer should be able to sort out the digital input without upsetting the car, find another installer if they say they can’t do it.
If you want to do it yourself you can use the analog speaker level inputs on the Amp which will work without throwing a code or require coding but is not ideal as you introduce unnecessary D/A - A/D Conversion.
If you want to do it yourself you can use the analog speaker level inputs on the Amp which will work without throwing a code or require coding but is not ideal as you introduce unnecessary D/A - A/D Conversion.
paralla said:
Your installer should be able to sort out the digital input without upsetting the car, find another installer if they say they can’t do it.
If you want to do it yourself you can use the analog speaker level inputs on the Amp which will work without throwing a code or require coding but is not ideal as you introduce unnecessary D/A - A/D Conversion.
Nope the one I spoke to can use the optical digital outputs and recode the car to make it think it has Bose or Burmester installed. But at £3k+ I might be better off finding another car with Bose installed. I'd rather put that money towards a car with GT4 written on the back!If you want to do it yourself you can use the analog speaker level inputs on the Amp which will work without throwing a code or require coding but is not ideal as you introduce unnecessary D/A - A/D Conversion.
I would try and get some time, driving, with the Burmeister. For me it’s only after listening for a while that I pick out the faults in an audio system. You could go down quite an expensive rabbit hole. Bose in the 987 / 997 was a shambles of a system - utter pants and only worthy of ripping out and sticking in the bin.
jakesmith said:
I would try and get some time, driving, with the Burmeister. For me it’s only after listening for a while that I pick out the faults in an audio system. You could go down quite an expensive rabbit hole. Bose in the 987 / 997 was a shambles of a system - utter pants and only worthy of ripping out and sticking in the bin.
My 2012 981's audio was truly shocking. My 2014's audio is less bad, but still awful in comparison to my old BMW's mediocre Harman/Kardon system. The bluetooth speaker I use in my shower sounds better! I've heard Bose in a 997 showroom car and it's a huge upgrade even if it's not exactly audiophile. But I don't need audiophile in a convertible with a soft top. I need enough power to allow me to enjoy music at elevated volumes without clipping or distortion when roof down at motorway speeds. I've never seen a car with Burmester audio in it but I'd love to hear one!Porsche are very straight forward cars audio wise
I have done 10 plus custom systems to date importantly car will look stock
As people have said Its not rocket science
But a careful considered approach with the installation
Finished with a detailed setting up with equalization and time alignment
nets great results
Because of your location the prices your quoting reflect this
I would estimate £2500 plus vat approx
I have done 10 plus custom systems to date importantly car will look stock
As people have said Its not rocket science
But a careful considered approach with the installation
Finished with a detailed setting up with equalization and time alignment
nets great results
Because of your location the prices your quoting reflect this
I would estimate £2500 plus vat approx
I’ve had A 2014 981 Cayman S with Burmeister which was very good but very expensive, I’d have ordered it again for the 2016 GT4 if it was available but all that was offered was SPP which was a bitter pill to swallow after the Burmeister Which is why I planned to change it. That plan went out the window when I got an allocation for a 2018 GT3. The top system in that is Bose but it’s been significantly improved over earlier Bose systems. I don’t think it’s as good as the earlier Burmeister (the ribbon tweeters are awesome) but I don’t think it’s far off at least in terms of punch.
My biggest issue with factory systems is a closed in feeling and also you can hear where the sound is manipulated
Thats not to say they do not provide what is light and day away from 15 years ago
To be fair this is more than adequate for most
Most factory audio offerings are coming from a common source with bespoke software
A game of numbers and shared components
But there are the few individuals who want a more tailored approach
Thats not to say they do not provide what is light and day away from 15 years ago
To be fair this is more than adequate for most
Most factory audio offerings are coming from a common source with bespoke software
A game of numbers and shared components
But there are the few individuals who want a more tailored approach
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