The Official Supercharged Speed Six Thread
Discussion
Just interested to find out some info on this really.
I've read various threads regarding FF heads, and 4.3 / 4.5 rebuilds, LS conversion and even nos. Not too much regarding S/C unless I haven't been looking hard enough?
As supercharging requires various uprated engine parts I suppose it's only really worth it if you need / want a rebuild. How much extra would adding the cost of a supercharger be?
Would a s/c 4.5 S6 engine have the legs over a LS7 conversion?
And finally and most importantly how would this affect reliability?
Thanks
I've read various threads regarding FF heads, and 4.3 / 4.5 rebuilds, LS conversion and even nos. Not too much regarding S/C unless I haven't been looking hard enough?
As supercharging requires various uprated engine parts I suppose it's only really worth it if you need / want a rebuild. How much extra would adding the cost of a supercharger be?
Would a s/c 4.5 S6 engine have the legs over a LS7 conversion?
And finally and most importantly how would this affect reliability?
Thanks
Been on here quite a while, the thread about my supercharged engine:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
As for you Jamie: SHAME ON YOU !!!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
As for you Jamie: SHAME ON YOU !!!
Edited by PascalBuyens on Thursday 6th January 11:52
PascalBuyens said:
I have been through that thread but it started off discussing the RG FFF engine and then a lot of it was just general chit chat. Not a lot was about the s/c aspect.Oh and this is now the "OFFICIAL" supercharged s6 thread
It's a very difficult call to make as to whether to SC a S6 or go LS.
Economically, I would suspect that they are both in a very similar price range to get a professional instalation.
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
As such, an SC S6 would be for the descerning gentleman who prefers themore classical English straight 6 and who has plenty of money.
Economically, I would suspect that they are both in a very similar price range to get a professional instalation.
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
As such, an SC S6 would be for the descerning gentleman who prefers themore classical English straight 6 and who has plenty of money.
DonkeyApple said:
It's a very difficult call to make as to whether to SC a S6 or go LS.
Economically, I would suspect that they are both in a very similar price range to get a professional instalation.
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
As such, an SC S6 would be for the descerning gentleman who prefers themore classical English straight 6 and who has plenty of money.
So we are talking ~ £20 - £30k for a s/c install.Economically, I would suspect that they are both in a very similar price range to get a professional instalation.
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
As such, an SC S6 would be for the descerning gentleman who prefers themore classical English straight 6 and who has plenty of money.
What about s/c ing a fully working 3.6l variant, same sort of dosh?
Diablos-666 said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's a very difficult call to make as to whether to SC a S6 or go LS.
Economically, I would suspect that they are both in a very similar price range to get a professional instalation.
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
As such, an SC S6 would be for the descerning gentleman who prefers themore classical English straight 6 and who has plenty of money.
So we are talking ~ £20 - £30k for a s/c install.Economically, I would suspect that they are both in a very similar price range to get a professional instalation.
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
As such, an SC S6 would be for the descerning gentleman who prefers themore classical English straight 6 and who has plenty of money.
What about s/c ing a fully working 3.6l variant, same sort of dosh?
Diablos-666 said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's a very difficult call to make as to whether to SC a S6 or go LS.
Economically, I would suspect that they are both in a very similar price range to get a professional instalation.
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
As such, an SC S6 would be for the descerning gentleman who prefers themore classical English straight 6 and who has plenty of money.
So we are talking ~ £20 - £30k for a s/c install.Economically, I would suspect that they are both in a very similar price range to get a professional instalation.
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
As such, an SC S6 would be for the descerning gentleman who prefers themore classical English straight 6 and who has plenty of money.
What about s/c ing a fully working 3.6l variant, same sort of dosh?
To give you an idea, for the whole SC installation up to the point where it is now, I paid a bit more than 25k.
What's to say about the engine: well... block's been made with big hp in mind, pistons, conrods, camshaft, bearings, all has been adapted for the supercharger. The FFF head on mine, from what I've been told at RG, was the base for their FFF2 head.
At present I'm waiting for feedback from the guys at RG, the car is over there, as I want them to install a Syvecs ECU, together with sequential injection, and a stronger gearbox (for obvious reason that it couldn't handle the torque)
Supercharger is a Rotrex C38-91, it has a water injection at present, in order to lower the intake temperatures, and I asked to have a chargecooler built into it as well while it's in there.
I think it's quite fair to say nothing's standard anymore, and as for total cost, well... I'll let you know when it's 100% the way I want it, but I would say it'll cost me around 30k at least in the end.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask...
What's to say about the engine: well... block's been made with big hp in mind, pistons, conrods, camshaft, bearings, all has been adapted for the supercharger. The FFF head on mine, from what I've been told at RG, was the base for their FFF2 head.
At present I'm waiting for feedback from the guys at RG, the car is over there, as I want them to install a Syvecs ECU, together with sequential injection, and a stronger gearbox (for obvious reason that it couldn't handle the torque)
Supercharger is a Rotrex C38-91, it has a water injection at present, in order to lower the intake temperatures, and I asked to have a chargecooler built into it as well while it's in there.
I think it's quite fair to say nothing's standard anymore, and as for total cost, well... I'll let you know when it's 100% the way I want it, but I would say it'll cost me around 30k at least in the end.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask...
That is some serious dosh to spend on an engine.
How does a s/c 4l s6 compare to a LS7 in terms of perfomance?
I believe the S6 engine is already heavier than the LS7 even before you add the weight of the blower and intercooler, this must affect the perfomance slightly too?
Is there an option to add different types of blower the S6? The reason i ask is because some are less stressful to the engine which may mean they could be bolted on to a standard 3.6l / 4l engine without uprating the internals?
My thinking was a 50bhp increase wouldnt affect the internals and thus reduce the overal cost significantly?
How does a s/c 4l s6 compare to a LS7 in terms of perfomance?
I believe the S6 engine is already heavier than the LS7 even before you add the weight of the blower and intercooler, this must affect the perfomance slightly too?
Is there an option to add different types of blower the S6? The reason i ask is because some are less stressful to the engine which may mean they could be bolted on to a standard 3.6l / 4l engine without uprating the internals?
My thinking was a 50bhp increase wouldnt affect the internals and thus reduce the overal cost significantly?
Diablos-666 said:
That is some serious dosh to spend on an engine.
How does a s/c 4l s6 compare to a LS7 in terms of perfomance?
LS7 has 505bhp (manufacturer's flywheel figure) out of the box, my S6 had 483 with 0.3 bar boost (just ran it in, the boost is going to be upped during this "upgrade"), so I'd say quite comparable.
I believe the S6 engine is already heavier than the LS7 even before you add the weight of the blower and intercooler, this must affect the perfomance slightly too?
No, LS7 weighs 458 pounds, which approximates I believe 230kg, the S6 weighs 202. Gearbox on LS7 is heavier to, as it's a T56, the S6 has a T5.
Is there an option to add different types of blower the S6? The reason i ask is because some are less stressful to the engine which may mean they could be bolted on to a standard 3.6l / 4l engine without uprating the internals?
So far the only superchargers I've seen on S6es are centrifugal ones, they require uprated internals (lower boost and all). Roots type SC, I wouldn't opt for (too much heat soaking).
My thinking was a 50bhp increase wouldnt affect the internals and thus reduce the overal cost significantly?
Well, if you're only after 50bhp, I'd suggest you look into either a NA FFF2 upgrade, or a 4.3 upgrade. Not worth the hassle of supercharging the engine IMHO.How does a s/c 4l s6 compare to a LS7 in terms of perfomance?
LS7 has 505bhp (manufacturer's flywheel figure) out of the box, my S6 had 483 with 0.3 bar boost (just ran it in, the boost is going to be upped during this "upgrade"), so I'd say quite comparable.
I believe the S6 engine is already heavier than the LS7 even before you add the weight of the blower and intercooler, this must affect the perfomance slightly too?
No, LS7 weighs 458 pounds, which approximates I believe 230kg, the S6 weighs 202. Gearbox on LS7 is heavier to, as it's a T56, the S6 has a T5.
Is there an option to add different types of blower the S6? The reason i ask is because some are less stressful to the engine which may mean they could be bolted on to a standard 3.6l / 4l engine without uprating the internals?
So far the only superchargers I've seen on S6es are centrifugal ones, they require uprated internals (lower boost and all). Roots type SC, I wouldn't opt for (too much heat soaking).
My thinking was a 50bhp increase wouldnt affect the internals and thus reduce the overal cost significantly?
DonkeyApple said:
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
Only in a factory-engineered installation. As soon as you transplant it into a tiny GRP car and have to determine c.q. develop things like airflow through the engine bay; oil, coolant and exhaust plumbing; operating temperatures of individual components, wiring loom and interaction with the car's instruments, immobiliser etc, yourself, all bets are off. As i said before this thread is just for information purposes really. I'm not looking to make any changes just yet.
We already know about the various 4l, 4,3l, 4.5l upgrades and their power outputs. These can cost in the region of £6-11k.
We know a LS7 conversion will cost ~£25k (when professionally installed)
S/C 4l SP6 will be about the same as the above.
How about the s/c kit that can bolt on to your engine without upgrading parts. A bolt on kit shouldn't be that hard to install, the intake would have to be modified and the belts taken off. So could probably be installed within a day?(the 50bhp was just an example of a safe amount of bhp)
If there was a s/c kit available for ~5k ish then i think there might be a few takers?
Maybe i'm just pi$$ing in the wind here, i was just interested really.
We already know about the various 4l, 4,3l, 4.5l upgrades and their power outputs. These can cost in the region of £6-11k.
We know a LS7 conversion will cost ~£25k (when professionally installed)
S/C 4l SP6 will be about the same as the above.
How about the s/c kit that can bolt on to your engine without upgrading parts. A bolt on kit shouldn't be that hard to install, the intake would have to be modified and the belts taken off. So could probably be installed within a day?(the 50bhp was just an example of a safe amount of bhp)
If there was a s/c kit available for ~5k ish then i think there might be a few takers?
Maybe i'm just pi$$ing in the wind here, i was just interested really.
Edited by Diablos-666 on Thursday 6th January 13:30
Diablos-666 said:
As i said before this thread is just for information purposes really. I'm not looking to make any changes just yet.
We already know about the various 4l, 4,3l, 4.5l upgrades and their power outputs. These can cost in the region of £6-11k.
We know a LS7 conversion will cost ~£25k (when professionally installed)
S/C 4l SP6 will be about the same as the above.
How about the s/c kit that can bolt on to your engine without upgrading parts. A bolt on kit shouldn't be that hard to install, the intake would have to be modified and the belts taken off. So could probably be installed within a day?(the 50bhp was just an example of a safe amount of bhp)
If there was a s/c kit available for ~5k ish then i think there might be a few takers?
Maybe i'm just pi$$ing in the wind here, i was just interested really.
Bear in mind that the S6 is a pretty high-compression engine (11:1 standard). If you're going to add forced induction to that, you won't have much gains.We already know about the various 4l, 4,3l, 4.5l upgrades and their power outputs. These can cost in the region of £6-11k.
We know a LS7 conversion will cost ~£25k (when professionally installed)
S/C 4l SP6 will be about the same as the above.
How about the s/c kit that can bolt on to your engine without upgrading parts. A bolt on kit shouldn't be that hard to install, the intake would have to be modified and the belts taken off. So could probably be installed within a day?(the 50bhp was just an example of a safe amount of bhp)
If there was a s/c kit available for ~5k ish then i think there might be a few takers?
Maybe i'm just pi$$ing in the wind here, i was just interested really.
Edited by Diablos-666 on Thursday 6th January 13:30
Putting on a SC without changing the internals: not a good idea IMO, unless you want a recipe for disaster.
PascalBuyens said:
Putting on a SC without changing the internals: not a good idea IMO, unless you want a recipe for disaster.
Diablos-666 said:
Have no reason to doubt you but, can you maybe explain why?
Adding a SC "as is" puts more air into the air/fuel mixture that the engine takes in. If you don't reprogram the ECU to add more fuel, you will have the engine run a lot warmer than it's supposed to run. This will, in the (most often not so) long term to the engine burning it's pistons...That's why a decent conversion changes the (standard mostly cast) pistons to forged ones, usually combined with a lower compression ratio. On the Tuscan i.e. it's been lowered from 11:1 to 10:1 (which is still pretty high for a F/I engine if you ask me). Reason as to why, is to keep the temperatures down, the higher the compression, the higher the temperatures normally (hence why a diesel engine usually runs around 22:1 to get the self-burning effect)
I knew adding a s/c would require an ecu remap otherwise the engine wouldn’t fire correctly (if at all)
As for the additional heat caused by the s/c, this is why s/c kits are normally supplied with intercoolers. So for this reason I don’t see why the compression ratio (11:1) of the S6 engine would make a difference.
Are the compression ratios of other engine that have had s/c’s fitted that much lower?
Please don’t take the above in the wrong way, I’m not trying to be argumentative I’m just interested.
As for the additional heat caused by the s/c, this is why s/c kits are normally supplied with intercoolers. So for this reason I don’t see why the compression ratio (11:1) of the S6 engine would make a difference.
Are the compression ratios of other engine that have had s/c’s fitted that much lower?
Please don’t take the above in the wrong way, I’m not trying to be argumentative I’m just interested.
900T-R said:
DonkeyApple said:
I would not expect there to be any arguement that the LS would be more reliable.
Only in a factory-engineered installation. As soon as you transplant it into a tiny GRP car and have to determine c.q. develop things like airflow through the engine bay; oil, coolant and exhaust plumbing; operating temperatures of individual components, wiring loom and interaction with the car's instruments, immobiliser etc, yourself, all bets are off. 
Diablos-666 said:
As i said before this thread is just for information purposes really. I'm not looking to make any changes just yet.
We already know about the various 4l, 4,3l, 4.5l upgrades and their power outputs. These can cost in the region of £6-11k.
We know a LS7 conversion will cost ~£25k (when professionally installed)
S/C 4l SP6 will be about the same as the above.
How about the s/c kit that can bolt on to your engine without upgrading parts. A bolt on kit shouldn't be that hard to install, the intake would have to be modified and the belts taken off. So could probably be installed within a day?(the 50bhp was just an example of a safe amount of bhp)
If there was a s/c kit available for ~5k ish then i think there might be a few takers?
Maybe i'm just pi$$ing in the wind here, i was just interested really.
I think we are at the point in the market where substantial gains over standard can be achieved by going to Power or RG and getting acapacity increase or different head. We are probably talking about a fairly easy 400 at the wheels now and with better reliability than ever before.We already know about the various 4l, 4,3l, 4.5l upgrades and their power outputs. These can cost in the region of £6-11k.
We know a LS7 conversion will cost ~£25k (when professionally installed)
S/C 4l SP6 will be about the same as the above.
How about the s/c kit that can bolt on to your engine without upgrading parts. A bolt on kit shouldn't be that hard to install, the intake would have to be modified and the belts taken off. So could probably be installed within a day?(the 50bhp was just an example of a safe amount of bhp)
If there was a s/c kit available for ~5k ish then i think there might be a few takers?
Maybe i'm just pi$$ing in the wind here, i was just interested really.
Edited by Diablos-666 on Thursday 6th January 13:30
For me, I really wouldn't be interested in having any more power than that in a conventional TVR. That kind of power is more than sufficient and at the end of the day it still won't make you any faster than someone in a normal TVR who can drive properly or has top end brakes and sorted handling.
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