Got to be worth its own topic

[blackiepaul]

I have just posted on the thread http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&... but thought I should post here as well.



I have always thought that I would need to rebuild my engine at some stage and though this is probably a long time in the future for me I like to keep in the picture of new developments so when required I am already informed.

When I saw there was another option I thought great news; Melling release I read with interest, it sounds like a lot of bang for my buck and decided to learn a little more. When I did a google search on some of his spec particularly the words “Colsibro valve guides” so I could find out more I came up with some one else’s engine spec – RACING GREENS! The link is http://www.thetvrshop.com/TVR/News/29.htm which is dated 28th July 2008

Now I am no legal eagle but I am pretty sure I would be going mad if I were Racing Green. All Melling seems to have done is change some of the words for Melling, I am not kidding this is incredible.

When I saw the price he was offering his engine at I was amazed because I really thought it could not be done. Now of course he has had no R&D as he seems to be using Racing Greens Spec for starters! Personally I will be steering clear of his offering - being a business person I am not a fan of people who rip off others ideas and this definitely seems like copyright infringement.

Copied off the relevant websites:-

Racing Green specification:-

Relinered or rebored cylinder block with deck refaced
Reground crankshaft
New forged pistons with Dows D10 dry lubricant to skirts
New high specification piston rings
New forged H beam 4340 steel rods with ARP 2000 rod bolts
New main and big end bearings
New Racing Green TVR sump baffle panel
Cylinder head completely stripped with new Colsibro valve guides fitted and seats reground throughout.
New inlet valves
New exhaust valves
New valve stem seals
New DLC coated finger followers
New camshafts
New headgasket
New oil feed modification to rear of cylinder head
New high specification timing chains
New half time bearings
New molybdenum disulphide impregnated upper timing chain tensioner
New oil seals

Melling Specification:-

New Melling Crankshaft
Relinered and rebored cylinder block with deck remachined
New Melling Liners
New Melling forged pistons with Dows D10 dry lubricant to skirts
New high specification piston rings
New forged H beam 4340 steel rods with ARP 2000 rod bolts
New main and big end bearings
New sump baffle panel
Cylinder head completely stripped and rebuilt with new Colsibro valve
guides fitted and seats reground throughout.
New inlet valves
New exhaust valves
New valve stem seals
New Melling finger followers
New Melling camshafts
New headgasket
New oil feed modification to cylinder head (original design)
New high specification timing chains
New half time bearings
New molybdenum disulphide impregnated upper timing chain tensioner
New oil seals


Make up your own minds this seems very wrong indeed to me!

[T40ORA]

Jesus.

My first thoughts when perusing the Melling artical on the front page were that 550bhp from a N/A Speed 6 is just away with the fairies.

But seeing this, my second thought is that it is just bloody unethical.

You're right Paul, it looks like a direct lift and is outrageous. Like you, not a legal expert but this has got to raise some rather serious questions.

[TVR_owner]

Good engine builders use best practices and generally the best affordable affordable parts or as per the customers request.

If it were me and looking at prospective engine builders I would not be looking in Mr Mellings dierction whatever parts he is using from whoevers' parts bin. I would instead look for a good builder that is prepared to talk honestly with you about his acheivements. Sadly Mr Melling appears too quick to throw a veil of secrecy over his past works.

He maybe a genius as some suggest, but I would really like to see any engine builder's "CV" such that I could take references as necessary to support claims as to past work. Al's "secrecy clauses" in his past work sdo not appear to allow this to happen.

[yzf1070]

The finger followers I would guess will resemble the same as those in the photograph, except I would hope they will not wear as quickly as these did. Melling was supposed to be supporting the Autocraft (PH surely I can use the name because they no longer exist), engine rebuilds with design information. The finger follower redesign played a large part of that support. This is what my followers looked like after approx 2000 miles. However I suspect the issue was with the quality of manufacture rather than the design. In fact the design I liked very much, as the follower had an oil groove which meant the cam lobe was constantly fed with oil…… didn’t do much good with these mind you.



I tried the pioneering route full of vigor and confidence and it cost me big time. Eating humble pie now John but I wish I had listened to your words of wisdom a couple years or so ago. IMHO having been bitten once I could only recommend that anyone needing a rebuild, they stick with the sources that have a proven track record. STR8-Six, TVR Power and its looking like RG now have their FFF design well into proven territory.

FWIW STR8-Six did my second rebuild and its now running around the 512BHP at 8.5 psi boost, only done just over 4K miles in it but it has already out lasted the Autocraft rebuild and is sounding sweet, goes like fark too. I think I will be dumping the Emerald tho as it seems incapable of handling seasonal temperature changes. Despite having had an idle bypass valve fitted and set up so the car ran lovely over winter, in the warmer weather once warmed up it refused to idle sweetly or run consistently smooth in traffic. Resetting everything up again for the warmer weather and it will run ok, but the settings are very different to those required for winter. Could just keep changing between 2 different configs, but that is a compromise I would rather avoid and I want the car sorted as best as can be, so looking at a Gems 40 or X25 as a possible contender the moment. Anybody with any experience of Gems then advice, info, opinion would be most welcome.

Thx G

[TVR_owner]

yzf1070 said:

I tried the pioneering route full of vigor and confidence and it cost me big time. Eating humble pie now John but I wish I had listened to your words of wisdom a couple years or so ago.

If folk dont try new things, as Lee has said in the past, we would still be living in caves - though it must be siad I'm quite happy in mine....

Seriously, I'm glad the motor is something like now and I note you are still doing the pioneering thing with ECUs I certainly wish you better fortune with the latter part of the project, god knows you deserve some luck.

My Sagaris will be going to its new owner in the coming days, so it looks like my S6 engine days are over (although the bride still has hers!).

Be assured I'll still be watching with interest, but not very much of it in what Mr Lemming has to say.

[Dicky]

This does not seem to be fair on Racing Green, they redesign the SP6 engine and have done this by irradicating all the existing problems that are associated with them, do the necessary engineering design and fabrication and prove it works in a T350, have it on a dyno and show it is pulling close on 400 bhp and if i could remember the torques i would

And I do believe that they are one of the best for engineering and design

Now for Mr Melling to bring out the Wildcat, which is a Griff in drag, and say he can provide what is basically the same engine as Racing Green in spec and design, albeit with alledgedly heaps more horsepower(+100ish on RG) for what is more cash, and then to steal the advertisment of Racing Greens and use it word for word is just so wrong. Surely if he is the genius that we are all led to believe in writeups then you would have thought he'd be able to string his own words together.

I would be more impressed if he had actually managed to complete a build on a SP6 and show it off with proof of what it can achieve, as Racing Green have done with theirs

I know who my money would go to, and I don't hid it when I say it would be the boys in Ash Vale

[T40ORA]

I'm with you Dicky.

I accept that some folks would prefer to spend their money with people who have a good reputation as engine builders and engineers, but RG are building that reputation based upon all the hard and smart work they've done, and the miles that are going on a number of their engines.

So to have someone do this seems unforgiveable.

[Hoolio]

blackiepaul said:

I have just posted on the thread http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&... but thought I should post here as well.



I have always thought that I would need to rebuild my engine at some stage and though this is probably a long time in the future for me I like to keep in the picture of new developments so when required I am already informed.

When I saw there was another option I thought great news; Melling release I read with interest, it sounds like a lot of bang for my buck and decided to learn a little more. When I did a google search on some of his spec particularly the words “Colsibro valve guides” so I could find out more I came up with some one else’s engine spec – RACING GREENS! The link is http://www.thetvrshop.com/TVR/News/29.htm which is dated 28th July 2008

Now I am no legal eagle but I am pretty sure I would be going mad if I were Racing Green. All Melling seems to have done is change some of the words for Melling, I am not kidding this is incredible.

When I saw the price he was offering his engine at I was amazed because I really thought it could not be done. Now of course he has had no R&D as he seems to be using Racing Greens Spec for starters! Personally I will be steering clear of his offering - being a business person I am not a fan of people who rip off others ideas and this definitely seems like copyright infringement.

Copied off the relevant websites:-

Racing Green specification:-

Relinered or rebored cylinder block with deck refaced
Reground crankshaft
New forged pistons with Dows D10 dry lubricant to skirts
New high specification piston rings
New forged H beam 4340 steel rods with ARP 2000 rod bolts
New main and big end bearings
New Racing Green TVR sump baffle panel
Cylinder head completely stripped with new Colsibro valve guides fitted and seats reground throughout.
New inlet valves
New exhaust valves
New valve stem seals
New DLC coated finger followers
New camshafts
New headgasket
New oil feed modification to rear of cylinder head
New high specification timing chains
New half time bearings
New molybdenum disulphide impregnated upper timing chain tensioner
New oil seals

Melling Specification:-

New Melling Crankshaft
Relinered and rebored cylinder block with deck remachined
New Melling Liners
New Melling forged pistons with Dows D10 dry lubricant to skirts
New high specification piston rings
New forged H beam 4340 steel rods with ARP 2000 rod bolts
New main and big end bearings
New sump baffle panel
Cylinder head completely stripped and rebuilt with new Colsibro valve
guides fitted and seats reground throughout.
New inlet valves
New exhaust valves
New valve stem seals
New Melling finger followers
New Melling camshafts
New headgasket
New oil feed modification to cylinder head (original design)
New high specification timing chains
New half time bearings
New molybdenum disulphide impregnated upper timing chain tensioner
New oil seals


Make up your own minds this seems very wrong indeed to me!

Paul, I totally agree.

If I were Colin & Matin I'm be going MAD! I printed both spec sheets off and comparing them side by side I have to say I was both shocked and disappointed that Melling would think he could get away with it without being noticed. They are virtually identical.

Melling has clearly ripped off the Racing Green spec and is trying to piggy-back on the sucess of the FFF. The only difference being is that Melling will only offer a 2 year warranty instead of the RG 3 and he has no R&D costs to cover, because the nice chaps at Racing Green have paid for that for him.

Fingers crossed, I don't need a re-build any time soon - but if and when I do I know who I will be calling...RACING GREEN!

[JR]

Hoolio said:

Melling has clearly ripped off the Racing Green spec and is trying to piggy-back on the sucess of the FFF. The only difference being is that Melling will only offer a 2 year warranty instead of the RG 3 and he has no R&D costs to cover, because the nice chaps at Racing Green have paid for that for him.

Someone, presumably at either Mellings or PH editorial has screwed up here and once again the PH mob are on their bandwagon. A more balanced view might be that AM was the one feeling frustrated amongst other reasons that:
1/. Having designed an engine that gave 420bhp(from memory) from a 3.6l and having the magnifying effect of finger followers negated by moving the c/l of the camshaft the bhp was down by nearly 20%.
2/. The above modification had horredous effects on reliability through wear rates as many have found out.
3/. Most of the problems with the S6 were listed and explained in his MW talk after which many others have acted upon his observations but he has recieved no credit.
4/. Not least of all that whilst many others have simply rebuilt the S6 with higher spec components this is the only solution to restore the original geometry and bhp (the bhp figures for the larger volues are in line with the 3.6 power output.)
%/. The apparent copying of a list has deflected attention from the significant piece of engineering being offered and draw many idiotic comments.

Cheers, Jonathan

[TVR_owner]

JR said:

Hoolio said:

Melling has clearly ripped off the Racing Green spec and is trying to piggy-back on the sucess of the FFF. The only difference being is that Melling will only offer a 2 year warranty instead of the RG 3 and he has no R&D costs to cover, because the nice chaps at Racing Green have paid for that for him.

Someone, presumably at either Mellings or PH editorial has screwed up here and once again the PH mob are on their bandwagon. A more balanced view might be that AM was the one feeling frustrated amongst other reasons that:
1/. Having designed an engine that gave 420bhp(from memory) from a 3.6l and having the magnifying effect of finger followers negated by moving the c/l of the camshaft the bhp was down by nearly 20%.
2/. The above modification had horredous effects on reliability through wear rates as many have found out.
3/. Most of the problems with the S6 were listed and explained in his MW talk after which many others have acted upon his observations but he has recieved no credit.
4/. Not least of all that whilst many others have simply rebuilt the S6 with higher spec components this is the only solution to restore the original geometry and bhp (the bhp figures for the larger volues are in line with the 3.6 power output.)
%/. The apparent copying of a list has deflected attention from the significant piece of engineering being offered and draw many idiotic comments.

Cheers, Jonathan

Some hard words there Johnathan.

Maybe you would like to expalin your last sentance, but maybe not before letting the PH mob know if the 420bhp 3,6 was wittnessed running (by any one independent of the AM camp) on a dyno or is it part of AM folklore??

[yzf1070]

TVR_owner said:

My Sagaris will be going to its new owner in the coming days, so it looks like my S6 engine days are over (although the bride still has hers!).

Be assured I'll still be watching with interest, but not very much of it in what Mr Lemming has to say.

Thanks for the words of support John, Sad to hear you have finally decided to part with the lout. I really thought you would have compromised on the garage space and kept room for it. I reckon they will be a sought after model in years to come.

Good luck with the seasons classic sprints

G

[TVR_owner]

yzf1070 said:

TVR_owner said:

My Sagaris will be going to its new owner in the coming days, so it looks like my S6 engine days are over (although the bride still has hers!).

Be assured I'll still be watching with interest, but not very much of it in what Mr Lemming has to say.

Thanks for the words of support John, Sad to hear you have finally decided to part with the lout. I really thought you would have compromised on the garage space and kept room for it. I reckon they will be a sought after model in years to come.

Good luck with the seasons classic sprints

G

G,
Enjoying racing rather than sprinting at the moment and the old 3000M gives me more of a buzz than the Lout ever did (I never thought it would I have to admit). It's had 9 outings so far with five class wins , two 2nd places, a 3rd and a 4th - God knows how well it would have done with a decent driver that had some bottle rather than the old cautious chap driving.

The garage has a mint 3000S Turbo sat where the Sagaris used to be and it fills the gap quite well.... I just need room to build the Griff 400 race car now.

John

[tail slide]

TVR_owner said:

G,
Enjoying racing rather than sprinting at the moment and the old 3000M gives me more of a buzz than the Lout ever did (I never thought it would I have to admit). It's had 9 outings so far with five class wins , two 2nd places, a 3rd and a 4th - God knows how well it would have done with a decent driver that had some bottle rather than the old cautious chap driving.

The garage has a mint 3000S Turbo sat where the Sagaris used to be and it fills the gap quite well.... I just need room to build the Griff 400 race car now.

John

Cracking results John, you must be buzzing.

But we suspect that you're far from cautious, and may in fact have more bottle than most after all.

[Hoolio]

JR said:

Hoolio said:

Melling has clearly ripped off the Racing Green spec and is trying to piggy-back on the sucess of the FFF. The only difference being is that Melling will only offer a 2 year warranty instead of the RG 3 and he has no R&D costs to cover, because the nice chaps at Racing Green have paid for that for him.

Someone, presumably at either Mellings or PH editorial has screwed up here and once again the PH mob are on their bandwagon. A more balanced view might be that AM was the one feeling frustrated amongst other reasons that:
1/. Having designed an engine that gave 420bhp(from memory) from a 3.6l and having the magnifying effect of finger followers negated by moving the c/l of the camshaft the bhp was down by nearly 20%.
2/. The above modification had horredous effects on reliability through wear rates as many have found out.
3/. Most of the problems with the S6 were listed and explained in his MW talk after which many others have acted upon his observations but he has recieved no credit.
4/. Not least of all that whilst many others have simply rebuilt the S6 with higher spec components this is the only solution to restore the original geometry and bhp (the bhp figures for the larger volues are in line with the 3.6 power output.)
%/. The apparent copying of a list has deflected attention from the significant piece of engineering being offered and draw many idiotic comments.

Cheers, Jonathan

Jonathan, thanks for your comments. IMHO you're being naive if you think Melling hasn't ripped off the RG spec. And whilst we're on about Melling regurgitating others people's ideas and claiming them as his own, how do you explain the Wildcat?

Edited by Hoolio on Thursday 14th May 22:31

[T40ORA]

tail slide said:

TVR_owner said:

G,
Enjoying racing rather than sprinting at the moment and the old 3000M gives me more of a buzz than the Lout ever did (I never thought it would I have to admit). It's had 9 outings so far with five class wins , two 2nd places, a 3rd and a 4th - God knows how well it would have done with a decent driver that had some bottle rather than the old cautious chap driving.

The garage has a mint 3000S Turbo sat where the Sagaris used to be and it fills the gap quite well.... I just need room to build the Griff 400 race car now.

John

Cracking results John, you must be buzzing.

But we suspect that you're far from cautious, and may in fact have more bottle than most after all.

Yeah, very well done John.

And you cautious? In some things like bakers, maybe but not driving...

[PascalBuyens]

yzf1070 said:

The finger followers I would guess will resemble the same as those in the photograph, except I would hope they will not wear as quickly as these did. Melling was supposed to be supporting the Autocraft (PH surely I can use the name because they no longer exist), engine rebuilds with design information. The finger follower redesign played a large part of that support. This is what my followers looked like after approx 2000 miles. However I suspect the issue was with the quality of manufacture rather than the design. In fact the design I liked very much, as the follower had an oil groove which meant the cam lobe was constantly fed with oil…… didn’t do much good with these mind you.



I tried the pioneering route full of vigor and confidence and it cost me big time. Eating humble pie now John but I wish I had listened to your words of wisdom a couple years or so ago. IMHO having been bitten once I could only recommend that anyone needing a rebuild, they stick with the sources that have a proven track record. STR8-Six, TVR Power and its looking like RG now have their FFF design well into proven territory.

FWIW STR8-Six did my second rebuild and its now running around the 512BHP at 8.5 psi boost, only done just over 4K miles in it but it has already out lasted the Autocraft rebuild and is sounding sweet, goes like fark too. I think I will be dumping the Emerald tho as it seems incapable of handling seasonal temperature changes. Despite having had an idle bypass valve fitted and set up so the car ran lovely over winter, in the warmer weather once warmed up it refused to idle sweetly or run consistently smooth in traffic. Resetting everything up again for the warmer weather and it will run ok, but the settings are very different to those required for winter. Could just keep changing between 2 different configs, but that is a compromise I would rather avoid and I want the car sorted as best as can be, so looking at a Gems 40 or X25 as a possible contender the moment. Anybody with any experience of Gems then advice, info, opinion would be most welcome.

Thx G

G,

Racing Green has been working closely with Omex, for the S/C conversion of my car. Maybe worth giving them a call....

[yzf1070]

Hi Pascal, Thanks for the comment. I am informed that Gems provide the set up software to Omex (not sure if this is true) but the Omex is a lot cheaper than the Gems, it is on my list. So is the Motec M600 which so far is the priciest but on paper has the exact capability I am looking for in that it has a lot of flexible configurations for the mapping. The base unit would come with the required necessary functions without having to purchase any add on packages. Tho I would consider the internal wideband lambda control as the LM1 controller I have has lost its base settings now and again (could have been due to a low battery voltage).

Lots to think about and consider, but yes the Omex is on the list. I am in no hurry as I will not be back in the UK for some time now, possibly this time next year. Hopefully get chance to read your feedback Pascal...that may swing me

Thanks and best of luck
G

[Night Rider]

Hoolio said:

JR said:

Hoolio said:

how do you explain the Wildcat?

Edited by Hoolio on Thursday 14th May 22:31

No body should explain that thing.

[rev-erend]

There are two things about this whole debacle that I found amazing.

1) Why TVR and specifically Peter Wheeler denied the problem existed and did very little if nothing at all to address the fundamental issue. The follower design / location. A change to bucket and shim, move cam location and change oil supply would most probably have fixed the issue. Yes it carried on for years, reputation gone, company gone..etc

2) How have Racing Green managed to afford the investment to do this ?

Sure - they are a great and very professional garage / dealer and IMHO deserve to sell better marques than they currently sell .. something like AM or Fezza seems to be in their league. So why the huge investment in head design, new casting etc.. there just does not seem to be pay back for the investment.

[JR]

rev-erend said:

2) How have Racing Green managed to afford the investment to do this ?

Sure - they are a great and very professional garage / dealer and IMHO deserve to sell better marques than they currently sell .. something like AM or Fezza seems to be in their league. So why the huge investment in head design, new casting etc.. there just does not seem to be pay back for the investment.

I wasn't aware that any of RGs work involved a new casting rev.