New Speed 6 Engines?
Discussion
I would think that most of you have seen the article about new engines based on S6: http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...
Does anyone have experience of Wilder Engineering?
How do we know if they are reliable and not another Autocraft?
£15k+ seems a lot of money for a engine rebuild?
Has anyone got a running S6 from them?
Does anyone have experience of Wilder Engineering?
How do we know if they are reliable and not another Autocraft?
£15k+ seems a lot of money for a engine rebuild?
Has anyone got a running S6 from them?
your roght £15K dose sound alot for a rebuild, but its a pretty impresive rebuild! new liners, new pistons and rods, new cams and top end....plus all the oiling work that they do.
and when you compear it to what else you can get for that much, say the new V8 bike engines, it make GOOD power to!
the only questions i have is what so great about the furry engine?? its smaller (0.3ltr) but everything else is the same is it not?? is this one going to rev to 9k or something??? wouldn't that be nice in a TVR??
thanks Chris.
PS. it nice to see an ex TVR man at least sorting problem that TVR themselves failed to do!!
and when you compear it to what else you can get for that much, say the new V8 bike engines, it make GOOD power to!
the only questions i have is what so great about the furry engine?? its smaller (0.3ltr) but everything else is the same is it not?? is this one going to rev to 9k or something??? wouldn't that be nice in a TVR??
thanks Chris.
PS. it nice to see an ex TVR man at least sorting problem that TVR themselves failed to do!!
At least there is a warranty, but it would have to be insurance backed to keep me happy and there are others that seem to offer much better value for money, and backed up by bigger reputations and seemingly more experience. Great progress though. It makes me realise how many corners were cut at TVR to maintain a price which I think was there biggest error (in hindsight).. People will pay for a strong brand thats shouts quality. This was clearly not the strategy of TVR for a long time, although it probably was towards the end but it would have taken more time to get them where they wanted to be... sorry getting off topic..
looking at the list of changed castings/parts its actually a very small minority of parts that are actually re-used, so you are just about getting a fully installed new top spec engine with 3 yr warranty ...considering people pay £12K+ to drop a £2.5K 4 pot Honda or Audi engine into an Elise then it seems pretty reasonable to me
On the expression "rebuild". Rebuilding is building again. It is noted that some rebuilders make adjustments to things in the process but to compare a Wilder engine with a "rebuild" is as inappropriate as comparing a Ruf Porsche engine with a recon flat six from a local specialist.
One big difference between Autocraft and my company is that my development has been at my expense not customers'. Another is that there is no pressure on me to prematurely launch anything either - indeed I have gone to some lengths throughout the development to acquire resources through third parties in order to quietly go about my business. I went to the PH Show because two naturally aspirated versions of the engine are now tested and available. The Tuscan on the show stand is a customer car (displayed with my demo car reg plates fitted).
On the positive side for Speed Six owners, the original design and castings are extremely good and easily bear comparison with some of the world's best engines - production and racing. if you were to pick a road engine of some sort and ask for it to be made into a serious high performance motor, the kind of things you'd look for or seek to add, the Speed Six already has - a main bearing between every crank journal, four-stage dry sump lubrication, 4V heads, twin cams with finger followers (the followers enable much more scope for valve actuation than OHC designs with the cam acting directly on a bucket), individual throttle body EFI...
On the negative side the Speed Six is just as easily comparable with any of the worst production engineered engines of all time - it was clearly put into production too soon IMHO. The three major issues are its oil control, compression and head/block interface. There are other details too that while they may not be terminal in themselves certainly don't contribute to extending the service life of the engines. Further areas of attention relate to making sure the engine can go in the car and stay in the car. There are some relatively minor jobs on Speed Sixes concerning inexpensive parts that, with engine extraction, have substantial labour costs attached to them - not so with the Wilder engines.
"Rebuilding" just gives you another lease of life for a while and frankly I don't have any issue whatsoever with anybody who finds the economics of doing so satisfactory - you are amply catered for.
A Wilder engine runs on 95 octane fuel, generates more power and torque than a Speed Six, has full oil pressure on cranking before the engine fires, sustains 10psi/1000rpm oil pressure with oil temperatures into the 90s (at these oil temps hot idle is at 30-40psi), every bearing/surface in the entire engine has the correct oil pressure/flow, all the front chains can be adjusted without removing the engine from the car. The Wilder cams and followers are not just redesigned for power but also for prolonged life - which they contribute to in a number of ways.
Tackling the Speed Six is probably not the most commercial enterprise I have entered into - indeed the motivation was entirely curiosity to begin with. But it is certainly one of the most satisfying. Credit where it's due, the basic architecture of the Speed Six is remarkable but their performance is below par for what that architecture is capable of generating. The Wilder engines can be benchmarked alongside recent class-leading six cylinder engines from Porsche and BMW. Every aspect of their behaviour is in line with the kind of parameters that major car companies know they have to work to in order to achieve long term reliability.
Wilder is Cliff Jobson's engine partner this year so you can watch the engines racing in the TVR Challenge amongst other races.
One big difference between Autocraft and my company is that my development has been at my expense not customers'. Another is that there is no pressure on me to prematurely launch anything either - indeed I have gone to some lengths throughout the development to acquire resources through third parties in order to quietly go about my business. I went to the PH Show because two naturally aspirated versions of the engine are now tested and available. The Tuscan on the show stand is a customer car (displayed with my demo car reg plates fitted).
On the positive side for Speed Six owners, the original design and castings are extremely good and easily bear comparison with some of the world's best engines - production and racing. if you were to pick a road engine of some sort and ask for it to be made into a serious high performance motor, the kind of things you'd look for or seek to add, the Speed Six already has - a main bearing between every crank journal, four-stage dry sump lubrication, 4V heads, twin cams with finger followers (the followers enable much more scope for valve actuation than OHC designs with the cam acting directly on a bucket), individual throttle body EFI...
On the negative side the Speed Six is just as easily comparable with any of the worst production engineered engines of all time - it was clearly put into production too soon IMHO. The three major issues are its oil control, compression and head/block interface. There are other details too that while they may not be terminal in themselves certainly don't contribute to extending the service life of the engines. Further areas of attention relate to making sure the engine can go in the car and stay in the car. There are some relatively minor jobs on Speed Sixes concerning inexpensive parts that, with engine extraction, have substantial labour costs attached to them - not so with the Wilder engines.
"Rebuilding" just gives you another lease of life for a while and frankly I don't have any issue whatsoever with anybody who finds the economics of doing so satisfactory - you are amply catered for.
A Wilder engine runs on 95 octane fuel, generates more power and torque than a Speed Six, has full oil pressure on cranking before the engine fires, sustains 10psi/1000rpm oil pressure with oil temperatures into the 90s (at these oil temps hot idle is at 30-40psi), every bearing/surface in the entire engine has the correct oil pressure/flow, all the front chains can be adjusted without removing the engine from the car. The Wilder cams and followers are not just redesigned for power but also for prolonged life - which they contribute to in a number of ways.
Tackling the Speed Six is probably not the most commercial enterprise I have entered into - indeed the motivation was entirely curiosity to begin with. But it is certainly one of the most satisfying. Credit where it's due, the basic architecture of the Speed Six is remarkable but their performance is below par for what that architecture is capable of generating. The Wilder engines can be benchmarked alongside recent class-leading six cylinder engines from Porsche and BMW. Every aspect of their behaviour is in line with the kind of parameters that major car companies know they have to work to in order to achieve long term reliability.
Wilder is Cliff Jobson's engine partner this year so you can watch the engines racing in the TVR Challenge amongst other races.
holmsie said:
Quick question Phil, what is the expected turnaround time for installing one of your engines, and do they have an improved spark plug cover, i.e. not one that has to be glued down with sealant every time?
About four weeks and you retain your original block. Later this year I'll offer exchange engines which can reduce the time to a week. Yes, they do have an improved spark plug cover, it's carbon fibre. The show engines didn't have them fitted as I wasn't happy with the fit of the carbon fibre samples I've had.
Somewhere else we avoid that hideous silicon/sikaflex is on the cam cover which is O-ringed so it can be lifted on and off. Lifting that off to check valve clearances will be the only servicing routine to need entry to the engine. (The half-time bearing has an oil supply so that should last for a very long time; all the chains are externally adjustable).
Sounds really interesting and, to my lamen's ears, very convincingly outlined by Phil. In fact, the whole thing shouts "quality" to me from start to finish. The exchange option in the future is intriguing too - would there be any difference in cost doing things that way?
Now where did I put that lottery ticket....
I've only had my SP6 for (nearly) a year and a half now and I remember in my early days of ownership how limited the options seemed to be for parts/re-builds etc. To have so many options available to us owners now, at various budgets, can only be seen as a very positive thing and this kind of apparent effort taken here shows that, even at this price level, comprehensive peace of mind and solid, reliable performance CAN be achieved.
Will be interesting to see how Ceejay's motor fairs out.
Andy
Now where did I put that lottery ticket....
I've only had my SP6 for (nearly) a year and a half now and I remember in my early days of ownership how limited the options seemed to be for parts/re-builds etc. To have so many options available to us owners now, at various budgets, can only be seen as a very positive thing and this kind of apparent effort taken here shows that, even at this price level, comprehensive peace of mind and solid, reliable performance CAN be achieved.
Will be interesting to see how Ceejay's motor fairs out.Andy
andyoleary said:
Sounds really interesting and, to my lamen's ears, very convincingly outlined by Phil. In fact, the whole thing shouts "quality" to me from start to finish. The exchange option in the future is intriguing too - would there be any difference in cost doing things that way?
Now where did I put that lottery ticket....
I've only had my SP6 for (nearly) a year and a half now and I remember in my early days of ownership how limited the options seemed to be for parts/re-builds etc. To have so many options available to us owners now, at various budgets, can only be seen as a very positive thing and this kind of apparent effort taken here shows that, even at this price level, comprehensive peace of mind and solid, reliable performance CAN be achieved. Will be interesting to see how Ceejay's motor fairs out.
Andy
Completely agree with Andys comments, to be honest got a bit pi55ed off some of the negative comments on the other thread -good on you Phil for helping us have more choice!Now where did I put that lottery ticket....
I've only had my SP6 for (nearly) a year and a half now and I remember in my early days of ownership how limited the options seemed to be for parts/re-builds etc. To have so many options available to us owners now, at various budgets, can only be seen as a very positive thing and this kind of apparent effort taken here shows that, even at this price level, comprehensive peace of mind and solid, reliable performance CAN be achieved.
Will be interesting to see how Ceejay's motor fairs out.Andy
C
Totally agree that more choice is good news, and well done Silverstone for giving us just that. My only gripe is cost, I just cant see how that figure is achieved when a rebuild cost for parts is
Steel billet en40b crank £2400
Injectors £348 lump sum
Main bearings £136.00 lump sum
Big end bearings £56.25 lump sum
Oil pump rotors £91.00
Engine oil seals £96.00 lump sum
Cylinder head gasket £146.00
Modified timing chain guide £97.00
Carrilo con rods £900.00 lump sum
piston assembly complete £680
Then you have all your head work £1200 all in
That's just over 6k plus vat
I think the cost could have been cheaper for the new wilder development engine to be honest. 16k seems rather a lot. After the autocraft affair people have wised up to the fact that big bucks does not necessarily mean quality work, although I am sure if Phil is involved all will be well with the rebuilds. I just don't think much is wrong with the speed 6, if there was Jason, Dom and Paul would have already sorted it amongst themselves I hope.
Good luck Silverstone.
Steel billet en40b crank £2400
Injectors £348 lump sum
Main bearings £136.00 lump sum
Big end bearings £56.25 lump sum
Oil pump rotors £91.00
Engine oil seals £96.00 lump sum
Cylinder head gasket £146.00
Modified timing chain guide £97.00
Carrilo con rods £900.00 lump sum
piston assembly complete £680
Then you have all your head work £1200 all in
That's just over 6k plus vat
I think the cost could have been cheaper for the new wilder development engine to be honest. 16k seems rather a lot. After the autocraft affair people have wised up to the fact that big bucks does not necessarily mean quality work, although I am sure if Phil is involved all will be well with the rebuilds. I just don't think much is wrong with the speed 6, if there was Jason, Dom and Paul would have already sorted it amongst themselves I hope.
Good luck Silverstone.
YI8TVR said:
Good luck Silverstone.
I know I can gloss over detail Mark, but where did Silverstone come in? And if Silverstone as in SP is involved with the engines, how de we know its not just someone elses engine with the makers name machined off to prevent anyone thinking it was made in China?
Daftlad said:
YI8TVR said:
Good luck Silverstone.
I know I can gloss over detail Mark, but where did Silverstone come in? And if Silverstone as in SP is involved with the engines, how de we know its not just someone elses engine with the makers name machined off to prevent anyone thinking it was made in China?
C
Daftlad said:
YI8TVR said:
Good luck Silverstone.
I know I can gloss over detail Mark, but where did Silverstone come in? And if Silverstone as in SP is involved with the engines, how de we know its not just someone elses engine with the makers name machined off to prevent anyone thinking it was made in China?
macdeb said:
Just slightly off topic, but what happened with 'Autocraft'? Just interested to know.
The engines all capitulated, mine included, due to disgustingly poor construction and suspect engineering.The staff all mutinied and left to form DTM Motorsport claiming the 'engineer' was to blame for everything.
DTM Motorsport went bust I think...shit sticks.
Everyone blamed everyone else. Al melling denied all knowledge.
A few owners saw a lot of hard earned dough disintegrate under their bonnets.
I get my car back for the first time in 12 months on Saturday.
I've had it for 3 months of the last 24.
Most of the owners are having their cars repaired - 3 with Jason Clegg, 1 at Racing Green, 1 now racing with a Wilder engine.
Autocraft are still officially trading according to Companies House.
My last conversation with Dave Davies - he said he had lost everything...so where did it all go?
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