Speed six questions...
Discussion
After reading some of the threads I am left with a few questions...
The later the better seems to be a common advice for speed six novices- is that the same for rebuilds(ie does an old engine never get good even with a rebuild???- or is a 2000 rebuilt in 08/06 better then an 02 engine renuilt in 03/05)...
Is a rebuilt car with low milage better then an original car with high mileage (which- in other cars would a marker for reliability)
Are the 3.6 l engines better than the 4.0 l ones ( I assume they all been blackpool horses so the reallife bph diff not so significant)???
Does S spec mean also upgraded parts
Are there differences between the protocols some of the rebuilders use???
Where to get an engine inspection b4 u buy privately- independent or dealer
Thanks
The later the better seems to be a common advice for speed six novices- is that the same for rebuilds(ie does an old engine never get good even with a rebuild???- or is a 2000 rebuilt in 08/06 better then an 02 engine renuilt in 03/05)...
Is a rebuilt car with low milage better then an original car with high mileage (which- in other cars would a marker for reliability)
Are the 3.6 l engines better than the 4.0 l ones ( I assume they all been blackpool horses so the reallife bph diff not so significant)???
Does S spec mean also upgraded parts
Are there differences between the protocols some of the rebuilders use???
Where to get an engine inspection b4 u buy privately- independent or dealer
Thanks
Hi there, I went through the same process you are when buying mine 2 years ago. The picture then was slightly different as there was no indication that the 2004 cars would last any longer than their predecessors. Two years down the line it seems that they are.
When looking at s/h Tuscans it all comes down to budget/personal choice. It's a buyers market - be ruthless.
The later the better seems to be a general rule. TVR have obviously been evolving the engine, judging by the Sagaris.
However, weigh up the cost of a cosmetically good, low mileage early car + a rebuild of the engine by a recommended tuner.
I took this option (low mileage excepted) based on finding a car in the colour I wanted (Starmist green - early colour, unusal for a Tuscan/Butterscotch interior).
A rebuilt engine with improved components, oil feed system, balanced bottom end, etc is obviously better than a like-for-like rebuild which many early SP6s had. Replacing new with old of the same design doesn't solve the flaws inherent in the design, and is worth nothing IMO. My SP6 made it to 34000 miles before wear in the head showed enough to warrant the engine being rebuilt. So higher mileage is not an inidcation of "a good one", more likely a considerate driver.
It has now been rebuilt to spec. higher than that of a Tuscan S, and with performance to match.
However that cost 18k, 
but you can buy whichever parts of the spec you want depending on your budget.
Someone more technical will explain the virtues of 4.0 v 3.6.
I can only speak
for the protocols of one rebuilder (tvrcraft). With the engineering input from the SP6 designer Al Melling, they've redesigned the engine, top and bottom - rebalancing it with stronger, lighter components - and addressed fundamental stress issues 
with the original design (modified from Mellings by TVR).
Other tuners have sourced similar parts from the same suppliers to Craft so you'll be able to get a decent rebuild elsewhere but not the whole hog - until they get to take a Craft engine apart, and see what they're missing, or evolve their own.
Craft are the only tuning shop to go on and successfully supercharge that engine as well. An endorsement of how well balanced and strong it can be made.
No other supercharged SP6 has made it off the test bed in one piece.
As for engine inspection - top end wear can be diagnosed anywhere without engine removal. Get a second opinion if you're in doubt.
Good luck.
Al.
When looking at s/h Tuscans it all comes down to budget/personal choice. It's a buyers market - be ruthless.
The later the better seems to be a general rule. TVR have obviously been evolving the engine, judging by the Sagaris.
However, weigh up the cost of a cosmetically good, low mileage early car + a rebuild of the engine by a recommended tuner.
I took this option (low mileage excepted) based on finding a car in the colour I wanted (Starmist green - early colour, unusal for a Tuscan/Butterscotch interior).
A rebuilt engine with improved components, oil feed system, balanced bottom end, etc is obviously better than a like-for-like rebuild which many early SP6s had. Replacing new with old of the same design doesn't solve the flaws inherent in the design, and is worth nothing IMO. My SP6 made it to 34000 miles before wear in the head showed enough to warrant the engine being rebuilt. So higher mileage is not an inidcation of "a good one", more likely a considerate driver.
It has now been rebuilt to spec. higher than that of a Tuscan S, and with performance to match.
However that cost 18k, but you can buy whichever parts of the spec you want depending on your budget. Someone more technical will explain the virtues of 4.0 v 3.6.
I can only speak
for the protocols of one rebuilder (tvrcraft). With the engineering input from the SP6 designer Al Melling, they've redesigned the engine, top and bottom - rebalancing it with stronger, lighter components - and addressed fundamental stress issues with the original design (modified from Mellings by TVR). Other tuners have sourced similar parts from the same suppliers to Craft so you'll be able to get a decent rebuild elsewhere but not the whole hog - until they get to take a Craft engine apart, and see what they're missing, or evolve their own.
Craft are the only tuning shop to go on and successfully supercharge that engine as well. An endorsement of how well balanced and strong it can be made.
No other supercharged SP6 has made it off the test bed in one piece. As for engine inspection - top end wear can be diagnosed anywhere without engine removal. Get a second opinion if you're in doubt.
Good luck.
Al.
I dont think the Speed 6 suffers from "Blackpool horsepower syndrome"
as the early V8 cars did. Every S6 I have seen on the dyno is usually
pretty close to what it says on the tin. When mine was rebuilt in 2004
at the factory I had it dynoed a few months later and it was bang on
360bhp (360.7 to be precise)Not the case with my Chim though thats for sure.
Col
as the early V8 cars did. Every S6 I have seen on the dyno is usually
pretty close to what it says on the tin. When mine was rebuilt in 2004
at the factory I had it dynoed a few months later and it was bang on
360bhp (360.7 to be precise)Not the case with my Chim though thats for sure.
Col
S6 SFX said:
It has now been rebuilt to spec. higher than that of a Tuscan S, and with performance to match.
However that cost 18k, but you can buy whichever parts of the spec you want depending on your budget. I went from a 3.6 to a 4.0RR inclucing all new components (crank, rods, pistons, cams and followers, head rework) at TVR Power for £6.5k all in. This also included new injectors etc...
£18k, does sound like pants down prices...
Mr F
Mr Freefall said:
S6 SFX said:
It has now been rebuilt to spec. higher than that of a Tuscan S, and with performance to match.
However that cost 18k, but you can buy whichever parts of the spec you want depending on your budget. I went from a 3.6 to a 4.0RR inclucing all new components (crank, rods, pistons, cams and followers, head rework) at TVR Power for £6.5k all in. This also included new injectors etc...
£18k, does sound like pants down prices...
Mr F
You get what you pay for....four bolt main caps? TKO gearbox? Al mellings input into his own design?
all new components at Power maybe....but are they new improved design/materials?
If not...i feel sorry for your car.
S6 SFX said:
Mr Freefall said:
S6 SFX said:
It has now been rebuilt to spec. higher than that of a Tuscan S, and with performance to match.
However that cost 18k, but you can buy whichever parts of the spec you want depending on your budget. I went from a 3.6 to a 4.0RR inclucing all new components (crank, rods, pistons, cams and followers, head rework) at TVR Power for £6.5k all in. This also included new injectors etc...
£18k, does sound like pants down prices...
Mr F
You get what you pay for....four bolt main caps? TKO gearbox? Al mellings input into his own design?
all new components at Power maybe....but are they new improved design/materials?
If not...i feel sorry for your car.
You did not state that is was £18k including gearbox etc, your post reads that it was £18 for engine work.
I wonder how much more those valves that are just 1mm thicker really are from the std TVR cost, and how much more custom rods are (forget the spelling carillo or corillo, £100 each maybe)? 4 bolt main caps will be what no more that £1k all in fitted with line bore and build cost.
I dont feel sorry for my car, its running strong with the new owner, just made healthy dyno reports 6000miles on from the build, no sign of wear, nice strong engine.
I do however, feel sorry for your bank balance being reduced by £18k, and I wonder if in 18000 miles time you will be smiling all the same. I hope nothing goes wrong for you, I really do, I think that once the speed 6 is sorted, it is a really nice eninge car, I have had 3 speed 6 cars now, so I know how nice they can be and also how bad they can be.
But, if in 18000 miles from your build, it is being pulled apart again, thats cost you £1000 per 1000 miles, well, your bank balance has been hit by £18k for the duration of 18000 miles.
I wish you luck, may your speed 6 hit 60,000 trouble free miles.
Merry Christmas
Mr F
Mr Freefall said:
But, if in 18000 miles from your build, it is being pulled apart again, thats cost you £1000 per 1000 miles, well, your bank balance has been hit by £18k for the duration of 18000 miles.
I wish you luck, may your speed 6 hit 60,000 trouble free miles.
Merry Christmas
Mr F
I wish you luck, may your speed 6 hit 60,000 trouble free miles.
Merry Christmas
Mr F
18k = 2.5 years depreciation from new on a Tuscan.
I bought second hand. So saved myself in that dept.
I've quoted component prices on my Diary thread if you want to check.
I now have one of the best SP6 engines around.
36k seems about right for the car I'm driving now.
A trip to trackcar in the new year will finish the job.
A scotsman and his money are not easily parted
I assure you.
Anyway, enough of that.
Merry Christmas to you too.
AI.
Edited by S6 SFX on Friday 15th December 16:23
S6 SFX said:
Mr Freefall said:
But, if in 18000 miles from your build, it is being pulled apart again, thats cost you £1000 per 1000 miles, well, your bank balance has been hit by £18k for the duration of 18000 miles.
I wish you luck, may your speed 6 hit 60,000 trouble free miles.
Merry Christmas
Mr F
I wish you luck, may your speed 6 hit 60,000 trouble free miles.
Merry Christmas
Mr F
18k = 2.5 years depreciation from new on a Tuscan.
I bought second hand. So saved myself in that dept.
I've quoted component prices on my Diary thread if you want to check.
I now have one of the best SP6 engines around.
36k seems about right for the car I'm driving now.
A trip to trackcar in the new year will finish the job.
A scotsman and his money are not easily parted
I assure you.
Anyway, enough of that.
Merry Christmas to you too.
AI.
Edited by S6 SFX on Friday 15th December 16:23
Ali, are craft saying that the engine is good for 36K then a refresh, or is this you guestimating? I only ask becuase all we have heard from all camps on rebuilds I would expect speed 6 engines to be up in the 50's before an overhaul.
just interested as a TVR owner here, not digging at any engineer, or works carried out
Mf F
£18K !! Clearly that must be a lot of work over and above the engine itself?
A 'standard' TVR S6 rebuild must be about 3k - 6K depending on what is required? So you could just have a standard rebuild knowing the 05 onwards spec engines are pretty robust and if it did let go then you could have another 2 or 3 goes and still spend under 18K ?
I cant see the economic sense in spending that much (the argument that it equates to a new cars depreciation doesnt do it for me).
A 'standard' TVR S6 rebuild must be about 3k - 6K depending on what is required? So you could just have a standard rebuild knowing the 05 onwards spec engines are pretty robust and if it did let go then you could have another 2 or 3 goes and still spend under 18K ?
I cant see the economic sense in spending that much (the argument that it equates to a new cars depreciation doesnt do it for me).
gazzab said:
£18K !! Clearly that must be a lot of work over and above the engine itself?
A 'standard' TVR S6 rebuild must be about 3k - 6K depending on what is required? So you could just have a standard rebuild knowing the 05 onwards spec engines are pretty robust and if it did let go then you could have another 2 or 3 goes and still spend under 18K ?
I cant see the economic sense in spending that much (the argument that it equates to a new cars depreciation doesnt do it for me).
A 'standard' TVR S6 rebuild must be about 3k - 6K depending on what is required? So you could just have a standard rebuild knowing the 05 onwards spec engines are pretty robust and if it did let go then you could have another 2 or 3 goes and still spend under 18K ?
I cant see the economic sense in spending that much (the argument that it equates to a new cars depreciation doesnt do it for me).
Each to his own. The Craft rebuild is not standard in any way. It's probably over engineered. You could get away with cheaper. My decision was not primarily driven by economic sense, I just wanted peace of mind as I don't intend to sell the car for a very long time. Craft engines should outperform all the existing TVR S6 engines, so I viewed it as an upgrade not a rebuild. Same with the gearbox. T5 boxes are on their limits as it is, and are susceptible to letting go when under extreme temperatures. TK0 600 is overkill really for my car, but again i know it will last. I'm not advocating this route for those dipping in and out of TVR ownership or as a model of economic sense. It works for me, and that's what matters. I don't want to be waiting for the next "rebuild".
All the best
Ali.
Edited by S6 SFX on Saturday 16th December 15:51
Mr Freefall said:
Ali, are craft saying that the engine is good for 36K then a refresh, or is this you guestimating? I only ask becuase all we have heard from all camps on rebuilds I would expect speed 6 engines to be up in the 50's before an overhaul.
just interested as a TVR owner here, not digging at any engineer, or works carried out
Mf F
I think you muddled up mileage and price there. My point was that if I had a budget of 36k, I'd be happy buying the spec of Tuscan that I now have. It wouldn't be a bargain, I don't expect to get that if I sell it tomorrow (not planning on selling for years), but in terms of bang for buck/styling etc to ME, it feels about right.
In terms of mileage for the Craft engines...All the design stresses have been removed or balanced, components are many times stronger, so with a little care and attention, there's no reason why it shouldn't run and run. That was the point of spending the money for me. I don't have a crystal ball, but there's some logic involved. I think there's a greater chance of the bodywork falling apart before the engine.
Ali.
S6 SFX said:
SXS said:
Ali, good to hear you have what you wanted. 
Any recent dyno graphs?
Any recent dyno graphs?
Not as yet, will post them in the new year after a visit to Trackcar.
Have a good Xmas Ash. Hope the Phoenix is flying soon.
Ali.
Cheers bruv.
Setbacks so far have been the pistons
Much to my dismay but it was out of my and the new tuners hands.
New ones are being made by another company over in Germany now, eta mid Jan.
If she doesnt fly soon, I'll throw in a pinto engine instead!
A as in AL Melling, J as in John Ravenscroft and P as in Peter Wheeler. MCD (Melling Consultancy Design) reportedly delivered to TVR for testing, six in line 6 cylinder engines named the AJP6. TVR later went to work and created the Speed 6 based around the AJP6 design. The trio's previous engine was indeed the AJP8.
Rgds
G
Rgds
G
I had an S6 rebuild by the factory in Oct 06, I have never been able to get a definitive answer (the same as everyone I believe) as to what was replaced and with what eg new and improved parts or same old sh#t. Presumably most of the factory guys would never want to speak about such things in the past because of their jobs etc does anyone know any more today or be prepared to talk about the actual engine changes if any that were made to correct the problems ??
depends on what you brought your motor in for . if it had a prior rebuild it would already have the later cams and followers if not they should have been changed as a matter of course in oct plus shells and rings at least . possably rods to if they were indian and we had lynton in stock !!
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