S6 Bottom end, Drive train and Follower mods

[yzf1070]

Folks,
Thought I would share some info and pics with you of my engine at TVRCraft, in particular the engine bottom end and drive train mods.

Main Caps
The following set of pics compares the crank main caps, TVR standard caps and TVRCrafts modified main caps. The standard block main cap webs are actually machined uniform through out, the reason the gaps exist is because the caps are so poorly tolerance manufactured. Such large gaps creates no side load support when the crank is spinning and because the main caps are single bolted with no side support the crank forces the caps to move which accelerates main bearing wear and increases the harmonic vibrations through the crank.

The TVRCraft main caps are dual bolted and the block is machined so that the caps are a tight fit providing the side load support. The caps will not move around and the crank is held well in place. Also note that the TVRCraft mains have full 360 degree thrust machined, the TVR standard has only a 180 degree thrust on the block side machined.









RODS
The following depicts the earlier Speed 6 rods (not Sagaris/Tuscan 2) against the TVRCraft sourced rods from Carrillo. Look at the mass of the little end on the TVR rod. This is totally undesirable and very poor design/engineering. You can also see the standard rods are poorly finished there are stress points in all typical locations. In comparison the Carrillo rod has radiuses at all the typical stress points.







CLUTCH
The following depicts the TVR AP clutch and the TVRCraft replacement Clutch assembly which is far lighter, stronger and handles up to 600 ft/lbs torque. It eradicates all the problematic issues with the standard AP clutch assembly. Check out the new sintered metal friction plates and modified standard flywheel. (My flywheel is a new billet item; the one pictured is destined for another customer’s car). A new hydraulic thrust will fit the T5 with only a few minor mods required. (See the unit in the pics of my TKO 600 box).









The Tremec TKO600 Close Ratio gear box. This unit is rated to 600 ftlbs torque. Check out the TVRCraft propshaft which is required to take the bigger splined output shaft in the TKO box. This box also has a reverse switch built into the box another improvement over the T5.











Finger Followers
The following should help to understand some issues with the finger followers. Here you can see the difference between the TVR and the TVRCraft Finger followers. In particular try and understand the oil flow characteristics explained, and also the shape of the TVRCraft follower and pad area is designed so that it follows the cam profile better, this reduces the side load forces acting on the valve stems during valve opening. The TVRCraft followers have been Rockwell hardness tested and proven far superior to the standard items, whilst also being 7 grams each; lighter.







Finally a few pics of an aluminium Speed 6 Air box designed and made by TVRCraft. This is a direct replacement for the standard TVR air box and eliminates the weakness inherent in the standard air box design where the throttle body connectors fracture and break up. (My version has 2 pace water coolers inside and is a little bigger in volume, It’s being polished at the moment).







There’s plenty more to show, but for now that’s it. My car is due completion in the next 4 weeks or so, after which I will post pic’s of the supercharger installation.

Hope this gives you some idea of what can be done (and in my opinion should be done by the factory) to properly improve build quality and reliability in the S6.

Cheers
G

Edited by yzf1070 on Monday 14th August 15:54

[Daftlad]

Graham,
I'm pleased you think you'll be pleased with your engine.

I hope all you belive turns out to be factual. I hope your faith turns out to be rewarded.

I'm still not convinced. What you've posted helps me be convinced I'm not convinced.

Hope the bill is worth it.

Regards
Some one who is quite happy with the factory offering and getting peed off with another post about how wonderfull Craft are...without actually proving anything.

[macdeb]

Sorry, well I'm not really but got to agree with the author. All looks common sense to me. Wouldn't be the constant debate if it were done right in first place. [sit and wait now for some 'johnny concrete' type to come along and tell me to bugger off]

Edited by macdeb on Monday 14th August 20:16

Edited by macdeb on Monday 14th August 20:39

[Daftlad]

macdeb said:

Sorry, well I'm not really but got to agree with the author. Wouldn't be the constant debate if it were done right in first place. [sit and wait now for some 'johnny concrete' type to come along and tell me to bugger off]

Edited by macdeb on Monday 14th August 20:16

Author had the courage to spend a fortune on something uproven when what he had was not broke. His choice.

If you feel the need to convince others, do it with longevity of service.

That proof is the only part of the dubious equation thats missing for me.

Photos with words don't really stand up to the test (IMO), especially when they don't appear to be "joined up".

I'd just like to see a Craft engined car walking the walk.........not someone trying to prove facts with some carefully phrased dyno print-out.

Maybe a 30,000 miler...or even a 10,000 miler...........or maybe one thats survived its warranty.

[ridds]

All those parts to mee look like parts that have just been improved.

Good for the cause but I would hate to imagine the cost of all that though.

Rationalise you parts to maximise your profit and oh look were back to the TVR parts.

The new items are a good idea but not always feasible in production. How much were the rods? £300?

Also the back plate to the airbox is too close to the trumpets in my eyes. Will interupt flow.

[justinbaker]

yzf1070 said:

Folks, Thought I would share some info and pics with you of my engine, and lots of other interesting stuff.

Brilliant pictures, and the inside of the speed six is fascinating to look at. I am sure that this will be a very good installation, and hope it lasts for years.

You could do with getting back into that lovely Tuscan, and making that six sing once again.

So thank you for sharing, we havent seen anything new for a while now. All excellent!

[_deejay_]

ridds said:

All those parts to mee look like parts that have just been improved.

Good for the cause but I would hate to imagine the cost of all that though.

Rationalise you parts to maximise your profit and oh look were back to the TVR parts.

The new items are a good idea but not always feasible in production. How much were the rods? £300?

Also the back plate to the airbox is too close to the trumpets in my eyes. Will interupt flow.

Really interesting to see what's been done (and with pictures so us thickies can understand!). Are TVRCraft OK with you posting them though, given the various claims about tuners copying each others products/ideas.

Whilst I'm in no position to question the engineering, a few things did occur to me:

1) It's much easier to find fault with an existing design than to design something yourselves, so TVR do seem to be getting a raw deal!

2) You're comparing an old TVR design with a new Autocraft one. How many of the issues have TVR resolved in the Saggy Speed 6?

3) Are any of the items overengineered for a standard 350hp engine?

4) How much would it cost to build a speed 6, from scratch if TVR had chosen those designs/parts/suppliers in the first place?
If the additional cost is small, then TVR obviously made a bad decision. If it's much more, would the market have sustained the increased price?

D

[yzf1070]

Daftlad said:

Graham,
I'm pleased you think you'll be pleased with your engine.

I hope all you belive turns out to be factual. I hope your faith turns out to be rewarded.

I'm still not convinced. What you've posted helps me be convinced I'm not convinced.

Hope the bill is worth it.

Regards
Some one who is quite happy with the factory offering and getting peed off with another post about how wonderfull Craft are...without actually proving anything.

Hi John,

I guess it's a subject you an I and many others will have to agree to disagree. Frankly I am quite surprised you cannot see the shabby cheap skate engineering in the TVR block its what I would expect to see in Ford Fiesta not a high performance engine and its no wonder they could'nt get a successful supercharger installation to work. I learned that the crank kept falling out and I can see why. When you think about it the Craft Main Caps are the same principle as used in race preped engines and on a bigger scale is the same principle employed in a Dresser Rand reciprocating compressor...just very much larger, but also built for reliability...My discipline is Instrumentation and Controls engineer and I have a good understanding of rotating machinery having worked with compressors and gas turbines, large industrial heavy machinery which is built to last, but the basics are very similar.

Craft did not have to do any more than show me the standard TVR set up and describe to me the original AJP6 design for me to realise the common sense approach. Yes its damned expensive, but have'nt TVR just added 10K to the cost of a new Sag....bet they have'nt done anything with the engine internals....yet...!!!

Frankly knowing what I do now, I would never have bought an S6, but if I knew TVR were doing work like this to sort the engine out properly I would buy a new one in the future and quite happily pay the going rate for it.....I am doing that now anyway...paying for it.

Craft have 5 cars out there in total a combination of top end only mods and a couple with the bottom end as well. I suspect you and others will still be looking for the proof even when they have clocked up 10K miles...what will be enough? For me seeing inside the engine has been enough.

I sincerely hope you do not experience a failure like I did...actually my engine did fail, I did not drop off a healthy car for Craft to fix, it sounded like a bag of spanners and was pinking something terrible.

The bill will certainly be worth it, a properly sorted S6 the only one to be supercharged and pushing out around 550BHP and 400ftlbs torque (calculated target).

How are you finding the Lotus? Now there's another marque that has always been desirable but also had its problems until a large consortium bought it and sorted it out by doing the proper thing, properly.... NS you reading all this? I hope so.

We must get together for that beer sometime John

Take it easy
G

[Daftlad]

yzf1070 said:

Daftlad said:

Graham,
I'm pleased you think you'll be pleased with your engine.

I hope all you belive turns out to be factual. I hope your faith turns out to be rewarded.

I'm still not convinced. What you've posted helps me be convinced I'm not convinced.

Hope the bill is worth it.

Regards
Some one who is quite happy with the factory offering and getting peed off with another post about how wonderfull Craft are...without actually proving anything.

Hi John,

I guess it's a subject you an I and many others will have to agree to disagree. Frankly I am quite surprised you cannot see the shabby cheap skate engineering in the TVR block its what I would expect to see in Ford Fiesta not a high performance engine and its no wonder they could'nt get a successful supercharger installation to work. I learned that the crank kept falling out and I can see why. When you think about it the Craft Main Caps are the same principle as used in race preped engines and on a bigger scale is the same principle employed in a Dresser Rand reciprocating compressor...just very much larger, but also built for reliability...My discipline is Instrumentation and Controls engineer and I have a good understanding of rotating machinery having worked with compressors and gas turbines, large industrial heavy machinery which is built to last, but the basics are very similar.

Craft did not have to do any more than show me the standard TVR set up and describe to me the original AJP6 design for me to realise the common sense approach. Yes its damned expensive, but have'nt TVR just added 10K to the cost of a new Sag....bet they have'nt done anything with the engine internals....yet...!!!

Frankly knowing what I do now, I would never have bought an S6, but if I knew TVR were doing work like this to sort the engine out properly I would buy a new one in the future and quite happily pay the going rate for it.....I am doing that now anyway...paying for it.

Craft have 5 cars out there in total a combination of top end only mods and a couple with the bottom end as well. I suspect you and others will still be looking for the proof even when they have clocked up 10K miles...what will be enough? For me seeing inside the engine has been enough.

I sincerely hope you do not experience a failure like I did...actually my engine did fail, I did not drop off a healthy car for Craft to fix, it sounded like a bag of spanners and was pinking something terrible.

The bill will certainly be worth it, a properly sorted S6 the only one to be supercharged and pushing out around 550BHP and 400ftlbs torque (calculated target).

How are you finding the Lotus? Now there's another marque that has always been desirable but also had its problems until a large consortium bought it and sorted it out by doing the proper thing, properly.... NS you reading all this? I hope so.

We must get together for that beer sometime John

Take it easy
G

Hi Graham,
We agree to disagree, but a nice balance resposne - what I expected really.

Lotus is fine thanks - so far (still running in).

We must indeed get for the beer to discuss brake and supsension upgrades - we're not too far a part for a reasonable period of the year. What are you doing 27th August??

Edited by Daftlad on Tuesday 15th August 15:39

[macdeb]

John, Really no offense intended but as you say about a 'craft' engine doing maybe 30k or 10k or lasting the warranty, wouldn't there be no need for this discussion if a TVR engine could do the same? I really wish there was no need for this post, but there is. Maybe if it were right, I might have held on to my S6 engined car and found funds elsewhere for my business. But it 'aint and I didn't. The author is spending his hard earned in an attempt to find the engine he should already have.

[J.T.]

[quote=John & Graham]

lots of informative balanced stuff as usual! [/quote]

Just thought I'd update with my Cerb's progress. Over 4000 miles now covered, all well and going great. Engine feels strong and smooth. Oil use to date minimal.

Only downside is after spending all the cash on her it looks like she's to be sold to fund new house Hey ho, all part of life's rich tapestry etc etc

Best wishes to all, JT

Edited by J.T. on Tuesday 15th August 19:38

[Daftlad]

macdeb said:

John, Really no offense intended but as you say about a 'craft' engine doing maybe 30k or 10k or lasting the warranty, wouldn't there be no need for this discussion if a TVR engine could do the same? I really wish there was no need for this post, but there is. Maybe if it were right, I might have held on to my S6 engined car and found funds elsewhere for my business. But it 'aint and I didn't. The author is spending his hard earned in an attempt to find the engine he should already have.

No offence taken Mac. I applaud those who have gone the Craft route, I applaud their patience and their faith which is starting to be rewarded.

Discussion on TVR engines is healthy and the reason for me suggesting what I did about the Craft engines doing some miles is, that from memory, the upgrade was sold as a reliability upgrade (with the exception of Grahams special). I would like to see it do some miles to see how successful it is in achieving its mission statement.

My doubts are general and not helped when I hear that the engine will produce more power than the standard unit - I don’t understand how it can, it should produce less from what I read and know of basic engine design.

If I ever have a S6 engine let go, I will go a similar route to Graham, maybe not with Craft, but with an engine builder closer to home who I have experience with and trust. Craft are too far away, and I know nothing first hand of their work.

I disagree with your last point, as I think the author would. Graham is spending his money in search of more power – not to get the engine he already should have.

Edited by Daftlad on Wednesday 16th August 06:53

[yzf1070]

J.T. said:

[quote=John & Graham]

lots of informative balanced stuff as usual!

Just thought I'd update with my Cerb's progress. Over 4000 miles now covered, all well and going great. Engine feels strong and smooth. Oil use to date minimal.

Only downside is after spending all the cash on her it looks like she's to be sold to fund new house Hey ho, all part of life's rich tapestry etc etc

Best wishes to all, JT

Edited by J.T. on Tuesday 15th August 19:38

[/quote]

Hi John

Good news and sad all in one post, but I guess it depends on how you view it. Get in touch with Dave I know he had someone asking him if he knew of a car with the Craft mods already done that was for sale.

Good luck and perhaps you'll be back in the near future?
G

[yzf1070]

[quote=Daftlad Graham is spending his money in search of more power – not to get the engine he already should have.

Edited by Daftlad on Wednesday 16th August 06:53

[/quote]

Gents,

I hate sitting on the fence not my style, but... you are both correct.

It did start out with just the top end mods I opted for, as the bottom had not been opened up. It was when I was made aware of the bottom end that I opted to go the whole way to gain the improved reliability, that and the fact that one of my pistons was damaged due to detonation. Later on, shortly after Ash had posted up the possibility of the Supercharger option, Dave mentioned it to me that with the mods I was having done the supercharger would be ideal and provide something different but that the car will remain looking standard from the outside, I like that aspect.

So in the end the gearbox, clutch, propshaft, charge cooler, supercharger, fuel mods and uprated radiator all became an additional in the quest for the power hike. This has considerably increased the price over Crafts standard top and bottom end reliability rebuild.

John 27th Aug sounds fine I am home that weekend what do you have in mind? Your neck of the woods has some great country pubs so I am more than happy to drop in there. Drop me a line.

Take care

G

[Daftlad]

G,
YHM

[DJC]

Good pics and words. Agree entirely with the clutch.

Ill also find it interesting to see how the Craft rebuilds perform, as with everything, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. No pt ppl bandying stuff about till there are decent miles on the engine and Im sure we are all looking forward to that. The major issue is of course one of cost and process engineering...as it always was. The design factor is a side issue (despite what anybody says and Melling & Autocraft have a vested interest in saying otherwise) and the Craft mods are very much aimed at producing a better quality component and built engine, at a much higher cost of course. If anybody thinks they could have got Peter Wheeler to stump up for Carillo Rods as standard on an S6 then yer dreaming! That is an argument folks are free to take up with Wheeler if they wish!

The Craft Supercharger engine is *not* the only one. I know of 4 different Supercharging operations S6 operations going on, only 2 1/2 (my operation is the 1/2) are public knowledge. Even then, there is knowledge about the Supercharging of the S6 that is very definately not in the public domain, inc about how much power can be reliably had from the engine and in which different cars. As has been discussed elsewhere, space for intercoolers is at a premium in certain bodyshells compared with others. We wont even go down the "TVR couldnt Supercharge the S6 for the road properly" debate because it will only get poisonous and ill-informed which isnt the pt of this thread and will ruin it.

Daftlad...there is a suspension and handling upgrade package developed.

[Daftlad]

DJC said:

Daftlad...there is a suspension and handling upgrade package developed.

Thanks for the update. When that becomes the limiting factor with my car I may give you a call.

[yzf1070]

DJC said:

I know of 4 different Supercharging operations S6 operations going on, only 2 1/2 (my operation is the 1/2) are public knowledge. Even then, there is knowledge about the Supercharging of the S6 that is very definately not in the public domain, inc about how much power can be reliably had from the engine and in which different cars.

That is great news I think it's good and healthy that others are also pursueing this route and I would love to know more.

DJC said:

We wont even go down the "TVR couldnt Supercharge the S6 for the road properly" debate because it will only get poisonous and ill-informed which isnt the pt of this thread and will ruin it.

Agree, in hind sight it probably wasn't a smart thing to mention.

If you are comfortable to disclose any project info please email me. I am interested in ideas and alternatives. Currently I aim to retain the standard ECU and batch injection using an Fuel management unit, but I am considering going over to a Motec ECU and sequential injection. Craft have said they can do this, but I want to run the car in and see how it performs first before I make any further decisions.

Cheers

G

[DJC]

Daftlad said:

DJC said:

Daftlad...there is a suspension and handling upgrade package developed.

Thanks for the update. When that becomes the limiting factor with my car I may give you a call.

Interesting you say that because it was actually developed independently of my carping about the steering, that has now been tagged on to it. The reports Im getting back from the testing are that it improves the behavior aspects of the vehicle it is aimed at "significantly". I havent had a chance to run the settings myself yet, but Im very intrigued. I also found it amusing that said stuff was being worked on already and the behaviors looking to be improved before hardly any of the owner base had even commented!

[macdeb]

Daftlad said:

macdeb said:

John, Really no offense intended but as you say about a 'craft' engine doing maybe 30k or 10k or lasting the warranty, wouldn't there be no need for this discussion if a TVR engine could do the same? I really wish there was no need for this post, but there is. Maybe if it were right, I might have held on to my S6 engined car and found funds elsewhere for my business. But it 'aint and I didn't. The author is spending his hard earned in an attempt to find the engine he should already have.

No offence taken Mac. I applaud those who have gone the Craft route, I applaud their patience and their faith which is starting to be rewarded.

Discussion on TVR engines is healthy and the reason for me suggesting what I did about the Craft engines doing some miles is, that from memory, the upgrade was sold as a reliability upgrade (with the exception of Grahams special). I would like to see it do some miles to see how successful it is in achieving its mission statement.

My doubts are general and not helped when I hear that the engine will produce more power than the standard unit - I don’t understand how it can, it should produce less from what I read and know of basic engine design.

If I ever have a S6 engine let go, I will go a similar route to Graham, maybe not with Craft, but with an engine builder closer to home who I have experience with and trust. Craft are too far away, and I know nothing first hand of their work.

I disagree with your last point, as I think the author would. Graham is spending his money in search of more power – not to get the engine he already should have.

Edited by Daftlad on Wednesday 16th August 06:53

Nicely put John, I think we're singin' the same song.