Discussion
Has anyone ever done this before? Surely it would be close to the ultimate speed 6 engine with the torque from the 4.5 and high revving BHP from the FFF. I sure the first thing everyone will say is the cost of adding them together would be 20k I guess but what an engine it would be :-)
It has been talked about A LOT on these forums. Some people think it would be amazing. Others think the high-revving character of the FFF wouldn't work so well with the 4.5.
All we know for sure is that both companies do not play well together, and it would take a huge amount of money to do, and I'm sure both companies wouldn't be happy with it, and that would include warranties.
Throw in there the fight between whose ECU would get used...Pity, but I cant see it happening.(I think that's fair - Dom?)
All we know for sure is that both companies do not play well together, and it would take a huge amount of money to do, and I'm sure both companies wouldn't be happy with it, and that would include warranties.
Throw in there the fight between whose ECU would get used...Pity, but I cant see it happening.(I think that's fair - Dom?)
I keep thinking about this.....
If I go for a rebuild, I want the best/most that is possible (assuming I can afford it).....
As Jason won't build another S/C SP6, Powers 4.5 kit (billet crank, Top Hat liners, pistons & rods, with FFF2 head, and then either latest MBE or Syvvecs, would seem to be the best possible...
I think one would have to buy the head from RG, buy the kit from Power, and ask someone you trust to do the re-build for you, then get it all bespoke mapped.
Would RG sell you a FFF2 head ??
What warranty you would get on that hybrid god only knows !!
The end result would probably be very good, as my understanding is the FFF2 head flows 20% more air/fuel mixture than standard SP6, and that is the reason for diminishing returns on bigger SP6 engines..
Did I say I keep thinking about this....
If I go for a rebuild, I want the best/most that is possible (assuming I can afford it).....
As Jason won't build another S/C SP6, Powers 4.5 kit (billet crank, Top Hat liners, pistons & rods, with FFF2 head, and then either latest MBE or Syvvecs, would seem to be the best possible...
I think one would have to buy the head from RG, buy the kit from Power, and ask someone you trust to do the re-build for you, then get it all bespoke mapped.
Would RG sell you a FFF2 head ??
What warranty you would get on that hybrid god only knows !!
The end result would probably be very good, as my understanding is the FFF2 head flows 20% more air/fuel mixture than standard SP6, and that is the reason for diminishing returns on bigger SP6 engines..
Did I say I keep thinking about this....
I was going to do this but was waiting for the VVT to work/designed. If as they originally said it would be ready by October 2012 I would have had it done!. You would be stupid IMHO to do this without VVT. The Tam is now sold so some other brave soul will have to be the guinea pig.
I agree I don't think Dom would have given the warranty on the 4.5 since he has now stated putting Syvecs on a 4.5 will invalidate the warranty!! He did however agree to uphold the warranty on the Tam with Syvevs so looks like the new ownwer will be quite unique.
I agree I don't think Dom would have given the warranty on the 4.5 since he has now stated putting Syvecs on a 4.5 will invalidate the warranty!! He did however agree to uphold the warranty on the Tam with Syvevs so looks like the new ownwer will be quite unique.
Edited by Getsis on Friday 12th April 07:37
RedSpike66 said:
The end result would probably be very good, as my understanding is the FFF2 head flows 20% more air/fuel mixture than standard SP6, and that is the reason for diminishing returns on bigger SP6 engines..
That's a bold claim especially since the engine architect said that the inlet manifold was the main restriction. Are you sure the the FFF2 flows 20% more than a standard S6 and not 20% more than a FFF1? What features would allow it to do this?It's simple maths. The engine in optimum tune (VPower fuel, upgraded airbox and exhaust) is knocking out roughly 450 currently. That is a 80bhp increase - which is slightly less than 20%. As soon as the VCT is sorted, it's be around a 100bhp increase, which is over 20%....
(Please can everyone also remember that the torque does also drastically increase - mine is in the same ball park as a 4.3)
Milage - yes, Dom is looking after a high mile engine (is it a 4.3/5 - I can't remember!), and all power to the pair of them (owner and Dom). Mine is now over 4000 miles since the rebuild, and is working very nicely. Not the same, I know, but good for people to know!
(Please can everyone also remember that the torque does also drastically increase - mine is in the same ball park as a 4.3)
Milage - yes, Dom is looking after a high mile engine (is it a 4.3/5 - I can't remember!), and all power to the pair of them (owner and Dom). Mine is now over 4000 miles since the rebuild, and is working very nicely. Not the same, I know, but good for people to know!
Don1 said:
It's simple maths. The engine in optimum tune (VPower fuel, upgraded airbox and exhaust) is knocking out roughly 450 currently. That is a 80bhp increase - which is slightly less than 20%. As soon as the VCT is sorted, it's be around a 100bhp increase, which is over 20%....
(Please can everyone also remember that the torque does also drastically increase - mine is in the same ball park as a 4.3)
Milage - yes, Dom is looking after a high mile engine (is it a 4.3/5 - I can't remember!), and all power to the pair of them (owner and Dom). Mine is now over 4000 miles since the rebuild, and is working very nicely. Not the same, I know, but good for people to know!
Is that a reply to my question? If so it does not show any increase at all over the capacity of the standard head flows. If we assume that all of the figures you've quoted for the FFF(whether 1 or 2) engine are correct then your calculated % is a power increase over the standard power. TVR Power are also claiming similar power levels to the ones you've quoted, certainly not 16 to 20% less with the original head.(Please can everyone also remember that the torque does also drastically increase - mine is in the same ball park as a 4.3)
Milage - yes, Dom is looking after a high mile engine (is it a 4.3/5 - I can't remember!), and all power to the pair of them (owner and Dom). Mine is now over 4000 miles since the rebuild, and is working very nicely. Not the same, I know, but good for people to know!
I suppose that there are a number of questions really like comparing head flows, comparing head flows with inlet manifolds attached, etc.. I was just trying to get some clarity on whether anyone knew whether there was any difference in head flows and what justification they had.
TA14 said:
Don1 said:
It's simple maths. The engine in optimum tune (VPower fuel, upgraded airbox and exhaust) is knocking out roughly 450 currently. That is a 80bhp increase - which is slightly less than 20%. As soon as the VCT is sorted, it's be around a 100bhp increase, which is over 20%....
(Please can everyone also remember that the torque does also drastically increase - mine is in the same ball park as a 4.3)
Milage - yes, Dom is looking after a high mile engine (is it a 4.3/5 - I can't remember!), and all power to the pair of them (owner and Dom). Mine is now over 4000 miles since the rebuild, and is working very nicely. Not the same, I know, but good for people to know!
Is that a reply to my question? If so it does not show any increase at all over the capacity of the standard head flows. If we assume that all of the figures you've quoted for the FFF(whether 1 or 2) engine are correct then your calculated % is a power increase over the standard power. TVR Power are also claiming similar power levels to the ones you've quoted, certainly not 16 to 20% less with the original head.(Please can everyone also remember that the torque does also drastically increase - mine is in the same ball park as a 4.3)
Milage - yes, Dom is looking after a high mile engine (is it a 4.3/5 - I can't remember!), and all power to the pair of them (owner and Dom). Mine is now over 4000 miles since the rebuild, and is working very nicely. Not the same, I know, but good for people to know!
I suppose that there are a number of questions really like comparing head flows, comparing head flows with inlet manifolds attached, etc.. I was just trying to get some clarity on whether anyone knew whether there was any difference in head flows and what justification they had.
Nothing in the bottom end of the engine has changed, it's all head, cams, ecu and getting the air in and out (along with Simplex chain etc that RG provide). I'm currently trying to rebuild my PC, but as soon as I'm up and running, I'll try to find pics of my head during the build process.
Don1 said:
I'd disagree with you - it shows significant changes with flow, as mine is still a 4.0.... Nothing in the bottom end of the engine has changed, it's all head, cams, ecu and getting the air in and out (along with Simplex chain etc that RG provide).
I'm currently trying to rebuild my PC, but as soon as I'm up and running, I'll try to find pics of my head during the build process.
To be fair, it's all head, cams , ecu plus better fuel and optimised map, exhaust and airbox. As Jonathon said, this is not just comparing cylinder head flow, FFF to stock. The % power increase you quote is a combination of results from all those changes. Nothing in the bottom end of the engine has changed, it's all head, cams, ecu and getting the air in and out (along with Simplex chain etc that RG provide). I'm currently trying to rebuild my PC, but as soon as I'm up and running, I'll try to find pics of my head during the build process.
I was told that the head had been redesigned - not just changing fingers to buckets and cams, but also inlet and exhaust tracts to increase & improve flow. As has been said, original engine top and bottom 4.0 Sagaris, original head with better cams, bigger injectors, throttle body, airbox, exhaust & custom map etc gives 410.... Original 4.0 Sagaris with FFF2 head, no throttle body mod but air box and exhaust and Syvvecs custom map gives 450...
To me that implies the head flow is helping with that extra 40 bhp as what else could be providing it ?? All other changes are similar...
I think the 4.5 FFF engine would need the VVT to help with low down revs driveability round town etc as the cams are very peaky I understand... Manageable in 4.0 FFF but desirable eh Don ???
To me that implies the head flow is helping with that extra 40 bhp as what else could be providing it ?? All other changes are similar...
I think the 4.5 FFF engine would need the VVT to help with low down revs driveability round town etc as the cams are very peaky I understand... Manageable in 4.0 FFF but desirable eh Don ???
Edited by RedSpike66 on Friday 12th April 18:35
If I was ever to have my sag engine rebuilt I'd either be doing as above finding a way to have the 4.3/4.5 with the FFF head and syvecs, the MBE is just not good enough IMO, (I've looked into the new mbe and the syvecs for my noble and ill be going syvecs on that next winter) and I'd do it without a warranty if that's what needs done to create the ultimate S6 engine. As far as I can see both options are a compromise because the company's are stopping some real potential with combining the two sets of development.
If ever I have to do my engine "rebuild", I'll be taking it to Topcats and get that V8 I should have gotten 6 years ago before someone talked me out of it saying it was impossible and that I should stick to the Speed 6. A mistake I'll never make again trusting that person/company...
But I probably should not comment here...
But I probably should not comment here...
natben said:
+1
Totally agree and for the life of me i cannot understand why people would risk a similar situation for if they are prepared to treat one customer this way [a very good customer in £ terms)If you do go the Topcats route Pascual i'm sure you will be very happy with the result
Let me know if you want a test drive?
Hope your issues are resolved soon!!
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