Guide me O PH knowledgable people

[Dr_Rick]

Right, we've got the family wagon sorted (Disco 4), now the boss has turned her head to a second car should we need it (due to potential change of job situation).

To my great surprise she mentioned the option to consider a Lotus Elise. Now, I can safely say:

- I've never driven an Elise
- I've never been driven in an Elise
- The only 'sports' car I've owned was a 1978 MGB roadster I had built for me
- I love to drive
- I don't mind getting my hands dirty on a car (see MGB above)

I know next to nothing about the details of an Elise and haven't even had a chance to have a poke around one. I'm thinking I may have a budget up to £12k, but obviously less would be better.

I prefer the look of the S2, and see that for my initial budget I would get a good S1, or a less good S2. Would that be a fair assumption? But beyond that, there are so many variations and owner-modifications I'm a little lost as to what would be good to see on a car (and what wouldn't), and what would be problem areas to look out for.

From my MG days, I know the K-series has its head gasket issues, but I would assume that all Elises would have had this rectified, woudln't they?

Any pointers, even illustrating the good and the bad using current PH sale examples would be greatly appreciated.

Dr Rick

[neilj37]

Before I bought my Elise I set a budget of 12k. After looking around I found out I would get and early S2 or a good S1. Being quite tall and wanting something a bit newer I up'd the budget to 14k so I could get a good 111S. I then started to worry about the durability of the k series engine and the head gasket failure and ending up spending 16k on a 111R.

You probably need to decide what you intend to use the car for ie weekend drives, trackdays etc and buy based on that. I love my 111R and Toyota engine but some people prefer the k series engine.

From what I have learnt since I wouldn't worry to much about the head gasket failure and just set yourself a maximum budget and buy the best car you can. I would recommend trying a couple of different ones ie 111S / 111R/ Racetech etc to see which you prefer but whatever you get you will enjoy it.

Edited by neilj37 on Monday 11th April 15:04

[Dr_Rick]

neilj37 said:

Before I bought my Elise I set a budget of 12k. After looking around I found out I would get and early S2 or a good S1. Being quite tall and wanting something a bit newer I up'd the budget to 14k so I could get a good 111S. I then started to worry about the durability of the k series engine and the head gasket failure and ending up spending 16k on a 111R.

You probably need to decide what you intend to use the car for ie weekend drives, trackdays etc and buy based on that. I love my 111R and Toyota engine but some people prefer the k series engine.

From what I have learnt since I wouldn't worry to much about the head gasket failure and just set yourself a maximum budget and buy the best car you can. I would recommend trying a couple of different ones ie 111S / 111R/ Racetech etc to see which you prefer but whatever you get you will enjoy it.

Edited by neilj37 on Monday 11th April 15:04

Thanks for the start Neil.

I'm aware of budget creep, hell I went out shopping for a Disco 3 and the wife decided she didn't like the grab handles so we ended up spending an extra £10k getting a Disco 4!

At present I'm not seeing any trackdays. It'll be used for weekends, but if commuting requires it, the Elise would be pressed into everyday use. I suppose the main question is, how safe would a low price S2 be? There's a great looking Exige Touring with a convertible modification on SEOC, but that's up at £17k+.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a definitive list of the model variants with the typical specs.

Dr Rick

[bordseye]

Dr_Rick said:

From my MG days, I know the K-series has its head gasket issues, but I would assume that all Elises would have had this rectified, woudln't they?

No. Indeed my impression, but its only an impression, is that the problem is worse with Elise because of the way it tends to get driven hard.

To be fair to Lotus, they have improved the Elise year by year to the point where its now a quite well finished and reliable car. So the later model you buy, the better from that point of view. In particular, unless you want engine work as a hobby, get one with the Toyota engine. And try to get one with aircon since Lotus still havent solved the heat soak / ventilation issue

[Dr_Rick]

bordseye said:

No. Indeed my impression, but its only an impression, is that the problem is worse with Elise because of the way it tends to get driven hard.

To be fair to Lotus, they have improved the Elise year by year to the point where its now a quite well finished and reliable car. So the later model you buy, the better from that point of view. In particular, unless you want engine work as a hobby, get one with the Toyota engine. And try to get one with aircon since Lotus still havent solved the heat soak / ventilation issue

So would that fall into the 'cheaper, high-mileage S2 category' then? Or, if there's specific quotation of remedial work for a K-series (or engine swap) in a S1, that one?

The latter doesn't get around the ventilation / heat soak issue.

Dr Rick

[kambites]

At that kind of budget, it's well worth considering a VX220 too. Less engine worries and debatably more car for your money.

You wont get a Toyota powered Elise without significantly increasing your budget, although you will get a K-series S2 if you want one. The K-series needn't be that much of an issue. The only really common problem is the head gasket and on a reasonable mileage you could get that replaced every couple of years in the money you save in fuel and tax over a Toyota powered car. The theory is that if you get it fixed properly it shouldn't go a second time but if you're unlucky, fixing it properly might involve a new head which pushes the price up a bit. There is also the slight issue that even the experts can't agree on what "fixing it properly" means.

Generally, even ignoring the engine, the cars got better built but heavier year-on-year.



Here's a couple of lists of variants:

http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Elise_model_history
http://www.elises.co.uk/models/index.php

ETA: It's not a given that the Toyota powered cars are actually better, either. I could have bought a 111R (189bhp Toyota engine) but bought a 111S (156bhp K-series VVC) instead because I thought it was a better car.

Edited by kambites on Monday 11th April 17:10

[Loudman]

bordseye said:

..... unless you want engine work as a hobby, get one with the Toyota engine......

Without wanting to retread old ground this comment is a bit ridiculous, i've had mine for 3 yrs and would know one end of a spanner from the other.

Its a shopper 4 pot, just like the Toyota, nothing that a 'normal' car wouldn't have and doesn't need regular maintenance.

Edited by Loudman on Monday 11th April 20:37

[Moospeed]

Loudman said:

Without wanting to retread old ground this comment is a bit ridiculous, i've had mine for 3 yrs and would know one end of a spanner from the other.

Its a shopper 4 pot, just like the Toyota, nothing that a 'normal' car wouldn't have and doesn't need regular maintenance.

Edited by Loudman on Monday 11th April 20:37

Indeed - seems threads like this thrive on misinformation and "bloke down the pub said".

Fact is that you tend to only hear about the bad news when someone has a HGF. Now I don't know the actual figures so I'm about hazard a guess i.e. this could be considered misinformation so please feel free to ignore, at least I'm not stating it as fact. I reckon that for every naughty elise that's had HGF there are twenty that haven't.

Some seem more afflicted than others though. I have heard of some being replaced more than once on a car but these days I think the resolution is pretty much sussed. On my ten year old, near 80k Sport 160 the head had never been off and you couldn't have paid me to do so. No sign of failure and wasn't going to tempt it.

[Moospeed]

Sorry, also meant to say to the good doctor. It's definitely worth you and the Mrs trying an elise out before committing to anything.

You can sometimes see cars with higher number of owners than expected as it's a more raw experience when compared to MR2, Boxster, S2000, MGB even. Don't believe the stories about S2/VX220's being that much more civilised than an S1 because they aren't that much different.

As a very rough idea, if you think of it as a good middle ground between Caterham and Boxster (very rough idea). Despite the naysayers, no problem with daily use if you're OK with that in mind.

However, having said that, this is why they have their fanbase and the reason why having tried out some of the "alternatives" such as Boxster S when replacing my last Elise I ended up back in an elise derivative (VX220 Turbo). There's just something about them that gets under your skin, it's just that for some more accustomed to an easier more pampered experience it's probably not the right choice.

[Dr_Rick]

The local dealership (indie) has a VX220 non-turbo for sale. Typically, they're overpriced, but given my lack of knowledge on the market for these types of car, I'm not sure. Anyone got any views on this specific one?

http://tinyurl.com/66ddkss

I think its a tad high, but I may 'enquire' such that I may get a test drive, if the weather's good this weekend.

Dr Rick

[vxah]

Pay a lot of attention to the bodywork on VX220's,some of them have problems with chunks of what looks like the gelcoat coming of! Very hard to repair and likely to reoccur! I have not seen this on a Lotus as yet...Don't want to either!

[pthelazyjourno]

bordseye said:

In particular, unless you want engine work as a hobby, get one with the Toyota engine. And try to get one with aircon since Lotus still havent solved the heat soak / ventilation issue

Posts like this annoy me - it's a complete load of bks.

Aside from the chance of HGF, there's fk all wrong with the K series. Buy one that's been sorted properly, or has a DVA'd head, and it's very very unlikely to go again. Or set aside £800 in case it does go. Either way, it's not a problem, and it doesn't have to involve you getting a spanner out.

And, for what it's worth, yes these cars can get bloody warm, but it's not particularly worth looking for air con as the pipes corrode, the air con unit fails, and a good percentage of them seem to not work. Humorously, you'll spend a lot more time and money fixing the air con than you would a HGF...

Horses for courses - all cars have niggles, try both variants and see what you like best, and don't listen to the horror stories on here.

[chevronb37]

My Elise had air con and in over 20k miles I never once used it, except once a month for a few mins to keep it in working order. If it's warm take the roof off.

[Esprit]

Don't worry about head gaskets. Buy on condition, not on mileage (so long as mileage isn't excessive). Look for ones owned by enthusiasts rather than joe public who wanted a sports car.

I've never had a head gasket problem in 6 years of Lotus ownership across three cars.

Neither has any of the K-series Lotus owners I know.

I think it's mainly because they're enthusiasts and warm their cars up and cool them down very sympathetically.

[kambites]

Re. mileage, the suspension typically needs an overhaul every 40-60k miles because Lotus made it out of Edam.

[kambites]

Esprit said:

I think it's mainly because they're enthusiasts and warm their cars up and cool them down very sympathetically.

That's fine if you buy new, but as a second-hand buyer you never quite know how the car has been treated. Mine has just gone (I think), despite me looking after it extremely carefully. No-one else has driven the car in four years. The thing is, in those four years I've easily saved enough in fuel and tax compared to a Toyota powered car to pay for the repair and I've got to drive what I think is a nicer car for that time.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 13th April 08:41

[Moospeed]

Dr_Rick said:

The local dealership (indie) has a VX220 non-turbo for sale. Typically, they're overpriced, but given my lack of knowledge on the market for these types of car, I'm not sure. Anyone got any views on this specific one?

http://tinyurl.com/66ddkss

I think its a tad high, but I may 'enquire' such that I may get a test drive, if the weather's good this weekend.

Dr Rick

Prices seem a bit all over the place at the moment for VX220's, that does seem a tad on the high side though. Especially as the advert openly says it smells of wee.

[John145]

The VX220 isn't a Lotus and won't drive like one, I know they built and designed them at Hethel but not to the same standard as the Elise.

[TIPPER]

Loudman said:

bordseye said:

..... unless you want engine work as a hobby, get one with the Toyota engine......

Without wanting to retread old ground this comment is a bit ridiculous, i've had mine for 3 yrs and would know one end of a spanner from the other.

Its a shopper 4 pot, just like the Toyota, nothing that a 'normal' car wouldn't have and doesn't need regular maintenance.

Edited by Loudman on Monday 11th April 20:37

Totally agree with you loudman. Mine never gave a hint of trouble in the four years I owned it and would happily carry 350 miles to a track, be thrashed around the track all day and then cheerfully take me home.
So much nonsense talked about the K series - lovely little engine and all known issues are fixable.


To the OP: best thing to do is to get out and try as many as you can. You need to get the feel between a good one and a bad one and you also need to find out if you and the other half can life with the Elises very raw nature.
They are an absolute pleasure to drive: if you do take the plunge then I'd also recommend you and the missus spend some time with Walshy as lightweight mid-engined cars handle very differently to anything else you've probably driven.
FWIW, with your budget I suggest a good S1 and keep the change. They pretty well all will have a sports exhaust together with an induction kit of some sort (doesn't really improve power by more than a couple of bhp but makes a much nicer noise!). Desireables are the Bilstein S2 suspension upgrade (recommended for road use).
When I say a good car I wouldn't really worry about miles. Elises take miles well (how many miles do the Rovers that the K series comes from cover??) and recon K series engines are sourcable fairly cheapoly anyway. I'd like to see some evidence of a suspension refresh, and lots of history and don't worry about the history being from a main dealer: most Lotus specialists are thought of very highly. Buy not on miles but provenance and condition, condition, condition.
I'd also suggest not parting with one penny until you've had the car checked over by a Lotus specialist (forget the AA etc, they aren't likely to know what to look for on an Elise). Main worries are chassis damage so that needs to be checked.
You'll often find the interior of the older cars looking a bit tatty but this can easily be rectified by a trim shop so some of the money you save buying an S1 can go towards a nice new interior.
One last thing: if you do buy one I bet you end up trying just one track day..............

[TIPPER]

Just one comment more re bordseye's comments on the K: One well known poster on here has had more than his fair share of very expensive troubles with the Yota unit in his 111R. It doesn't mean they're all bad, just one bad experience of the K(as I suspect bordseye may have had) doesn't mean they're all bad. You can't generalise from the particular.