Rover T Series
Discussion
Anybody here had much experience of the Rover "T-Series" as in this car:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2637350.htm
I'm looking for a S1 Elise, and this looks interesting - but I know nothing about these engines - are they turbo'd K series? Are they much good in Elises?
Or does anybody know about this actual car?
Any info gratefully received...
Richard.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2637350.htm
I'm looking for a S1 Elise, and this looks interesting - but I know nothing about these engines - are they turbo'd K series? Are they much good in Elises?
Or does anybody know about this actual car?
Any info gratefully received...
Richard.
NWTony said:
A friend of mine has a T series S1 Elise and it is rapid and it feels more rapid when you are in it. Apparently some T series engines have forged pistons as standard, some did not, so that's your weak point on them. Makes 200hp easily at very low boost.
I know the same guy and the car is properly quick and I know it isn't running much boost. I like Turbo's and as well as the performance they sound great 
The one for sale is owned by a guy on MLOC and I beleive is very well sorted also
T16 is a very reliable cast iron block with alloy head. As said, nothing to do with K-series, and doesn't share any of its' cooling system-related issues.
Pro's: reliability, good torque due to long-ish stroke, cheapness
Con's: not well supported for aftermarket tuning
Pistons are pretty much all the same - theres no "forged" ones as standard, unless you mean Mahles (sp?), which are no stronger than the others.
The pistons are good for up to about 250bhp, after which point you are in the hands of fate as some seem to last better than others.
Rods are actually forged, but very thin - and tend to go banana-shaped after about 270-280bhp.
These engines are easy to get to around 240-50, requiring only an uprated intercooler and T28, good breathing and boost controller obviously. Above that, forged pistons are a must for reliability.
The MEMS ECU is mapped up to 1 bar - at which point it is overfuelling to cool the pistons. This means that you can run 16-17psi before you run out of fuel - but you cannot remap MEMS. You will also hit the boost-cut at 1bar - but this can be overcome with a boost-cut defender. To go higher than this boost you will need aftermarket ECU installed.
The great part about these engines is their cheapness and relative bomb-proofness (when kept under about 240bhp in standard form).
If you need further info, please visit Rovertech, which is an absolute gods-end for anything to do with these engines.
HTH
Dom
(long time Tomcat Turbo owner)
Pro's: reliability, good torque due to long-ish stroke, cheapness
Con's: not well supported for aftermarket tuning
Pistons are pretty much all the same - theres no "forged" ones as standard, unless you mean Mahles (sp?), which are no stronger than the others.
The pistons are good for up to about 250bhp, after which point you are in the hands of fate as some seem to last better than others.
Rods are actually forged, but very thin - and tend to go banana-shaped after about 270-280bhp.
These engines are easy to get to around 240-50, requiring only an uprated intercooler and T28, good breathing and boost controller obviously. Above that, forged pistons are a must for reliability.
The MEMS ECU is mapped up to 1 bar - at which point it is overfuelling to cool the pistons. This means that you can run 16-17psi before you run out of fuel - but you cannot remap MEMS. You will also hit the boost-cut at 1bar - but this can be overcome with a boost-cut defender. To go higher than this boost you will need aftermarket ECU installed.
The great part about these engines is their cheapness and relative bomb-proofness (when kept under about 240bhp in standard form).
If you need further info, please visit Rovertech, which is an absolute gods-end for anything to do with these engines.
HTH
Dom
(long time Tomcat Turbo owner)
Ah, forgot to say:
The T16 engine mates to the Rover PG1 gearbox (originally Honda-derived). The turbo 'boxes come with a Type-A or Type-B TORSEN diff - often incorrectly described as an LSD.
In Rover applications, the K-series were often mated to the R65(?) box, or a PG1 for a few models (BRM 200 springs to mind).
I don't know if the K-series engined Elises used the R65 or the PG1 'box - but just a possible extra factor to take into consideration...
HTH,
Dom
The T16 engine mates to the Rover PG1 gearbox (originally Honda-derived). The turbo 'boxes come with a Type-A or Type-B TORSEN diff - often incorrectly described as an LSD.
In Rover applications, the K-series were often mated to the R65(?) box, or a PG1 for a few models (BRM 200 springs to mind).
I don't know if the K-series engined Elises used the R65 or the PG1 'box - but just a possible extra factor to take into consideration...
HTH,
Dom
domV8 said:
The turbo 'boxes come with a Type-A or Type-B TORSEN diff - often incorrectly described as an LSD.
Dom
Dom
wiki said:
Torsen (full name Torsen traction) is a type of limited slip differentialused in automobiles. It was invented by American Vernon Gleasman[1] and manufactured by the Gleason Corporation. Torsen is a contraction of Torque-Sensing. TORSEN and TORSEN Traction are registered trademarks of JTEKT Torsen North America Inc (formerly Zexel Corporation, formerly Gleason Power Systems). All Torsen differentials have their origin in the Dual-Drive Differential that was invented and patented by Gleasman in 1958.
TORSEN diff is not an proper LSD.
As soon as one wheel is *fully* clear of the ground - it will spin the power off just like a regular diff.
The torsen diff just directs the drive to the wheel with the most grip, until such time as this loss of contact happens - at which point it will spin as per a regular diff.
Read this to understand why..:
Torsen.com help files - wheel with no resistance
HTH
Dom
As soon as one wheel is *fully* clear of the ground - it will spin the power off just like a regular diff.
The torsen diff just directs the drive to the wheel with the most grip, until such time as this loss of contact happens - at which point it will spin as per a regular diff.
Read this to understand why..:
Torsen.com help files - wheel with no resistance
HTH
Dom
Yes but a Torsen diff is a limited slip diff, it does limit the slip of one wheel. Just because its not a plate diff doesn't make it not a limited slip diff. My track car will happily light up both its rear wheels under power with its torsen diff. Thinking about it all my current cars have one.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Thursday 7th April 18:35
For the purposes of this post, "TORSEN" refers to the TORSEN type A & B diffs found in the Rover PG1 turbo gearboxes, as specified in my first post and relevant to this topic.
At the risk of going totally off-topic...
A TORSEN diff only works when both wheels have grip - ie. both wheels experience resistance (torque).
The diff then directs drive to the wheel with more grip.
As soon as one wheel experiences slip - ie. there is a loss of resistance to one wheel - the diff stops working.
When a wheel is in a state of "complete slip" - ie. it is in the air with zero resistance - the diff is unable to send drive to the wheel with grip, and all the power goes to the wheel in the air, in exactly the same way as an "open" diff does.
For example..:
If I jack up a TORSEN-diff'ed car with one of the driving wheels in the air and the other on the ground, I start the engine and put it in gear... The wheel in the air will start to spin (slip), while the wheel touching the ground remains motionless.
The airbourne wheel will continue to spin (slip) ad infinitum, while my car remains motionless, until I turn the engine off - because the diff does not "limit the slip" and just spins off all the power to the airbourne wheel. (like a standard "open" diff)
In a car with a proper LSD - after a given amount of slip (spinning the airbourne wheel) the LSD would "limit the slip" by directing the drive to the wheel on the ground, and my car would shoot off the jack, off down the road.
A TORSEN works differently in each of the following conditions..:
1. Both wheels have grip:
The diff works correctly, sending drive to the wheel with the most grip
2. 1 wheel grips, 1 slips
The diff stops working, and drive goes to the wheel that is slipping
3. Both wheels slip
Neither wheel has grip, therefore the diff doesn't work, until one or both wheels regain grip (then see either 1. or 2. above)
(Lighting up both wheels is irrelevant to the workings of the diff, as neither wheel is experiencing resistance - therefore the diff sees no imbalance between the two [there being no difference between 0 and 0].)
The different performance characteristics between the TORSEN and a proper LSD can be highlighted as follows - with one wheel on the ground, and one in the air..:
- a proper LSD will direct drive to the wheel on the ground (thus counteracting the slip)
- a TORSEN will direct drive to the wheel in the air (having no countering-effect on the slip)
This is why TORSEN had to develop the improved "Torsen T-2R" with a pre-load system, in order to provide a solution to these situations - as mentioned in the help files I referenced above.
Anyway - having gone totally off-topic, back to the OP's request for info:
My original is an accurate summary of the T16 turbo engine, if you need further information then can I suggest checking out the Rovertech forum mentioned above - a friendly bunch composed of the marque's foremost proponents and tuners who will be more than happy to help.
I hope this is of help to those who require the information - please feel free to shout or PM me if you have any other questions about the T16.
HTH,
Dom
At the risk of going totally off-topic...
Herman Toothrot said:
Yes but a Torsen diff is a limited slip diff, it does limit the slip of one wheel
No it doesn't.A TORSEN diff only works when both wheels have grip - ie. both wheels experience resistance (torque).
The diff then directs drive to the wheel with more grip.
As soon as one wheel experiences slip - ie. there is a loss of resistance to one wheel - the diff stops working.
When a wheel is in a state of "complete slip" - ie. it is in the air with zero resistance - the diff is unable to send drive to the wheel with grip, and all the power goes to the wheel in the air, in exactly the same way as an "open" diff does.
For example..:
If I jack up a TORSEN-diff'ed car with one of the driving wheels in the air and the other on the ground, I start the engine and put it in gear... The wheel in the air will start to spin (slip), while the wheel touching the ground remains motionless.
The airbourne wheel will continue to spin (slip) ad infinitum, while my car remains motionless, until I turn the engine off - because the diff does not "limit the slip" and just spins off all the power to the airbourne wheel. (like a standard "open" diff)
In a car with a proper LSD - after a given amount of slip (spinning the airbourne wheel) the LSD would "limit the slip" by directing the drive to the wheel on the ground, and my car would shoot off the jack, off down the road.
A TORSEN works differently in each of the following conditions..:
1. Both wheels have grip:
The diff works correctly, sending drive to the wheel with the most grip
2. 1 wheel grips, 1 slips
The diff stops working, and drive goes to the wheel that is slipping
3. Both wheels slip
Neither wheel has grip, therefore the diff doesn't work, until one or both wheels regain grip (then see either 1. or 2. above)
(Lighting up both wheels is irrelevant to the workings of the diff, as neither wheel is experiencing resistance - therefore the diff sees no imbalance between the two [there being no difference between 0 and 0].)
The different performance characteristics between the TORSEN and a proper LSD can be highlighted as follows - with one wheel on the ground, and one in the air..:
- a proper LSD will direct drive to the wheel on the ground (thus counteracting the slip)
- a TORSEN will direct drive to the wheel in the air (having no countering-effect on the slip)
This is why TORSEN had to develop the improved "Torsen T-2R" with a pre-load system, in order to provide a solution to these situations - as mentioned in the help files I referenced above.
Anyway - having gone totally off-topic, back to the OP's request for info:
My original is an accurate summary of the T16 turbo engine, if you need further information then can I suggest checking out the Rovertech forum mentioned above - a friendly bunch composed of the marque's foremost proponents and tuners who will be more than happy to help.
I hope this is of help to those who require the information - please feel free to shout or PM me if you have any other questions about the T16.
HTH,
Dom
domV8 said:
No it doesn't.
A TORSEN diff only works when both wheels have grip - ie. both wheels experience resistance (torque).
The diff then directs drive to the wheel with more grip.
As soon as one wheel experiences slip - ie. there is a loss of resistance to one wheel - the diff stops working.
When a wheel is in a state of "complete slip" - ie. it is in the air with zero resistance - the diff is unable to send drive to the wheel with grip, and all the power goes to the wheel in the air, in exactly the same way as an "open" diff does.
Dom
If the wheels are on the ground, where they should be then they both will be experiencing torque - the diff will be working directing power to the wheel with more grip, as you said above ^. That makes its a limited slip diff. A TORSEN diff only works when both wheels have grip - ie. both wheels experience resistance (torque).
The diff then directs drive to the wheel with more grip.
As soon as one wheel experiences slip - ie. there is a loss of resistance to one wheel - the diff stops working.
When a wheel is in a state of "complete slip" - ie. it is in the air with zero resistance - the diff is unable to send drive to the wheel with grip, and all the power goes to the wheel in the air, in exactly the same way as an "open" diff does.
Dom
Who cares how it behaves when jacked up, its how it behaves when you are putting the power down on tarmac that counts when talking about a sports car.
Almost every modern road car that is sold as having a Limited Slip Diff will have a TorSen. You'll only find plate diffs on early '90's stuff or as aftermarket motorsport items.
Herman Toothrot said:
If the wheels are on the ground, where they should be then they both will be experiencing torque - the diff will be working directing power to the wheel with more grip, as you said above ^. That makes its a limited slip diff.
Who cares how it behaves when jacked up, its how it behaves when you are putting the power down on tarmac that counts when talking about a sports car.
Almost every modern road car that is sold as having a Limited Slip Diff will have a TorSen. You'll only find plate diffs on early '90's stuff or as aftermarket motorsport items.
Hi Herman,Who cares how it behaves when jacked up, its how it behaves when you are putting the power down on tarmac that counts when talking about a sports car.
Almost every modern road car that is sold as having a Limited Slip Diff will have a TorSen. You'll only find plate diffs on early '90's stuff or as aftermarket motorsport items.
In the application in Rover turbos (FWD high-torque, low weight cars), the driving wheels regularly lose contact with the ground, and the characteristics of this diff become very obvious, very quickly.
The point about the car being jacked up is that this is illustrating what happens when 1 wheel slips and the other retains its traction.
The point I am trying to make is neatly summed up in the following Wikipedia page (everyones friend
)..:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differen...
Quoting from the section "Geared LSD" - the text by the image of the "Audi Quattro Torsen Differential" reads..:
"Geared LSDs use worm gears rather than clutches of the clutch type and the cones of the cone type, and work by "multiplying" the torque from the slowest moving wheel to the fastest, rather than actively controlling slip.
In the case of slip, the wheel in contact can receive up to X times the torque applied to the wheel which is slipping, where X is the torque multiplication value for the differential.
In this sense, torque sensitive differentials are not strictly limited slip - once an output shaft becomes free (e.g., one driven wheel lifts off the ground; or a summer tire comes over ice while another is on dry tarmac when the car goes uphill), no torque is transmitted to the second shaft and the torque-sensitive differential behaves like an open differential...
...Some torque sensitive differentials feature a bias plate, which allows some torque to be transmitted to the wheel in contact even when the opposite wheel has no traction... [This would be the updated "Torsen T-2R"? - Dom]
Geared LSDs are more dependent on the torque and not on the speed difference between the output shafts (however the speed difference plays a part). Such differentials may not be adequate on extremely slippery surfaces such as ice (or thin air, when a drive wheel loses ground contact altogether).
Geared LSDs may be used:
* to reduce torque steer in front-wheel drive vehicles;
* .....
* in rear-wheel drive vehicles, to maximize traction and make oversteer easier to manage (as in drifting). Although, for extreme drifting, a geared LSD is less effective compared to a clutch type LSD."
My gut feeling is that the diffs in these gearboxes may not be as useful to a RWD car, as say a proper viscous LSD - but it may be that it makes less of a difference than to FWD, as accelerating a RWD moves weight over the driving wheels (thereby increasing traction) whereas acceleration reduces weight over the driving wheels in a FWD car (increasing the chances of slip)...
HTH,
Dom
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