Elise takes a dive
Discussion
Knowing nothing about Elises (or about anything else), recently I drove a '08 111SC for the first time. AFAIK, the car was factory standard, had not be modded by owner.
A number of things about it surprised me, which I could get into if anyone were interested, but I wanted to get others' opinions about one thing in particular.
Under braking, the car has a lot of dive (nose comes down). This could have been designed out, so Lotus presumably want it there (unless it's present in order to accommodate the same pick-up points as the Exige, which would have stiffer springs).
Is this characteristic typical of the Elise range over time? Does it annoy other people as much as it did me? Is there a consensus as to why the factory accept it?
Cheers.
A number of things about it surprised me, which I could get into if anyone were interested, but I wanted to get others' opinions about one thing in particular.
Under braking, the car has a lot of dive (nose comes down). This could have been designed out, so Lotus presumably want it there (unless it's present in order to accommodate the same pick-up points as the Exige, which would have stiffer springs).
Is this characteristic typical of the Elise range over time? Does it annoy other people as much as it did me? Is there a consensus as to why the factory accept it?
Cheers.
I've got a couple of pictures somewhere of an S1 on the S2 Bilstein set up and my car on a 400/475 front/back Nitron set up under brakes going into the same corner: the difference in the attitude of the cars is quiet marked. With good quality damping you can fit much stiffer springs than OE without totally wrecking the ride (it will be firmer but should be very well damped) but considerably enhancing the track capability of the car.
The Elise, as standard is quite softly sprung... something that gives it good road manners for a snappy-handling sports car. This means that under hard driving (on road or track) weight transfer through roll and pitch will be significant and needs to be managed. Stock Elises do move about a fair bit on their suspension and is a by-product of being a road-focussed but track-capable setup.
For more enthusiastic driving, a suspension upgrade is wise and will provide greater body control at the expense of road-manners.
For more enthusiastic driving, a suspension upgrade is wise and will provide greater body control at the expense of road-manners.
Esprit said:
The Elise, as standard is quite softly sprung... something that gives it good road manners for a snappy-handling sports car. This means that under hard driving (on road or track) weight transfer through roll and pitch will be significant and needs to be managed. Stock Elises do move about a fair bit on their suspension and is a by-product of being a road-focussed but track-capable setup.
For more enthusiastic driving, a suspension upgrade is wise and will provide greater body control at the expense of road-manners.
I accept that, but it is possible to design the pick-up points to generate anti-dive. There are other consequences of anti-dive, but soft springs/soft bump need not inevitably induce a lot of dive.For more enthusiastic driving, a suspension upgrade is wise and will provide greater body control at the expense of road-manners.
flemke said:
Esprit said:
The Elise, as standard is quite softly sprung... something that gives it good road manners for a snappy-handling sports car. This means that under hard driving (on road or track) weight transfer through roll and pitch will be significant and needs to be managed. Stock Elises do move about a fair bit on their suspension and is a by-product of being a road-focussed but track-capable setup.
For more enthusiastic driving, a suspension upgrade is wise and will provide greater body control at the expense of road-manners.
I accept that, but it is possible to design the pick-up points to generate anti-dive. There are other consequences of anti-dive, but soft springs/soft bump need not inevitably induce a lot of dive.For more enthusiastic driving, a suspension upgrade is wise and will provide greater body control at the expense of road-manners.
Scuffers said:
flemke said:
Esprit said:
The Elise, as standard is quite softly sprung... something that gives it good road manners for a snappy-handling sports car. This means that under hard driving (on road or track) weight transfer through roll and pitch will be significant and needs to be managed. Stock Elises do move about a fair bit on their suspension and is a by-product of being a road-focussed but track-capable setup.
For more enthusiastic driving, a suspension upgrade is wise and will provide greater body control at the expense of road-manners.
I accept that, but it is possible to design the pick-up points to generate anti-dive. There are other consequences of anti-dive, but soft springs/soft bump need not inevitably induce a lot of dive.For more enthusiastic driving, a suspension upgrade is wise and will provide greater body control at the expense of road-manners.
flemke said:
Knowing nothing about Elises (or about anything else), recently I drove a '08 111SC for the first time. AFAIK, the car was factory standard, had not be modded by owner.
A number of things about it surprised me, which I could get into if anyone were interested, but I wanted to get others' opinions about one thing in particular.
Under braking, the car has a lot of dive (nose comes down). This could have been designed out, so Lotus presumably want it there (unless it's present in order to accommodate the same pick-up points as the Exige, which would have stiffer springs).
Is this characteristic typical of the Elise range over time? Does it annoy other people as much as it did me? Is there a consensus as to why the factory accept it?
Cheers.
My opinion is the car just needs more rear braking. It suprised me when I got my VX how the braking seemed to be all at the front when the MR2's I'd owned before had more rear bias, indeed bigger discs at the back. Many people rave about the carbon lorraine pads that have a higher friction material for the rear.A number of things about it surprised me, which I could get into if anyone were interested, but I wanted to get others' opinions about one thing in particular.
Under braking, the car has a lot of dive (nose comes down). This could have been designed out, so Lotus presumably want it there (unless it's present in order to accommodate the same pick-up points as the Exige, which would have stiffer springs).
Is this characteristic typical of the Elise range over time? Does it annoy other people as much as it did me? Is there a consensus as to why the factory accept it?
Cheers.
flemke said:
Not sure that I understand how making the front springs softer would cause more understeer...
it's a long story, suffice to say, running the front soft (relatively) promotes understeer on the Elise.you have to remember, the Elise is unlike just about ever other road car in how it's kinematics work along with very little weight on the front...
malbon said:
It is weird. I remember asking a garage to stiffen the front ARB to the tightest setting to reduce understeer and they kind of laughed at me saying it would create more. But apparently it reduces it
issue here us that all conventional wisdom says stiff ARB = more understeer, and ultimately, that's correct, but to get to this point, we are talking MASSIVELY stiff. Herman Toothrot said:
flemke said:
Knowing nothing about Elises (or about anything else), recently I drove a '08 111SC for the first time. AFAIK, the car was factory standard, had not be modded by owner.
A number of things about it surprised me, which I could get into if anyone were interested, but I wanted to get others' opinions about one thing in particular.
Under braking, the car has a lot of dive (nose comes down). This could have been designed out, so Lotus presumably want it there (unless it's present in order to accommodate the same pick-up points as the Exige, which would have stiffer springs).
Is this characteristic typical of the Elise range over time? Does it annoy other people as much as it did me? Is there a consensus as to why the factory accept it?
Cheers.
My opinion is the car just needs more rear braking. It suprised me when I got my VX how the braking seemed to be all at the front when the MR2's I'd owned before had more rear bias, indeed bigger discs at the back. Many people rave about the carbon lorraine pads that have a higher friction material for the rear.A number of things about it surprised me, which I could get into if anyone were interested, but I wanted to get others' opinions about one thing in particular.
Under braking, the car has a lot of dive (nose comes down). This could have been designed out, so Lotus presumably want it there (unless it's present in order to accommodate the same pick-up points as the Exige, which would have stiffer springs).
Is this characteristic typical of the Elise range over time? Does it annoy other people as much as it did me? Is there a consensus as to why the factory accept it?
Cheers.
I couldn't say what the relative effect is, but, just as more front brake will generate more dive, more dive will generate more front brake.
Scuffers said:
flemke said:
Not sure that I understand how making the front springs softer would cause more understeer...
it's a long story, suffice to say, running the front soft (relatively) promotes understeer on the Elise.you have to remember, the Elise is unlike just about ever other road car in how it's kinematics work along with very little weight on the front...
flemke said:
Scuffers said:
flemke said:
Not sure that I understand how making the front springs softer would cause more understeer...
it's a long story, suffice to say, running the front soft (relatively) promotes understeer on the Elise.you have to remember, the Elise is unlike just about ever other road car in how it's kinematics work along with very little weight on the front...
AllNines said:
flemke said:
A number of things about it surprised me, which I could get into if anyone were interested,
Oh go on, then, what were these surprises? Or your general impressions of the car. Were you on road or track, too?Steering was a disappointment - the feel was good, but nothing extraordinary. I was surprised at the extent to which the car's reactivity to steering inputs increased w road speed. I had a sense that this was at least in part a result of short wheeelbase, although CoG may have influence as well.
Steering wheel is terrible - too small, and all those stylised lumps and bumps get in the way.
Brake feel was mediocre, although the ABS was quite good. Servo effect lighter than what is typical in modern cars (to the Elise's benefit). Gear change somewhat sloppy, although I expected that.
Engine was pretty good - seemed well matched to the rest of the package. It is amusing that, currently, on the main forum here there is a debate because some people are asserting that the NSX is "too slow" a car by modern standards. I don't know why people would think that "speed" is only of the drag-racing variety. This Elise certainly had enough speed for B-roads.
Because of conditions, I couldn't come close to generating much in the way of roll/lateral g, but there was plenty of grip. Inside, it was an effective, comfortable driving environment (apart from steering wheel).
HereBeMonsters said:
flemke said:
Scuffers said:
flemke said:
Not sure that I understand how making the front springs softer would cause more understeer...
it's a long story, suffice to say, running the front soft (relatively) promotes understeer on the Elise.you have to remember, the Elise is unlike just about ever other road car in how it's kinematics work along with very little weight on the front...
it does not really take that much to get the Elise to be a much more responsive/rewarding car, but this does come with a downside, it's going to be less forgiving.
For Lotus this was the issue with the original (S1) Elise, early customers were a generation of drivers brought up on FWD euro-box'es and a lot ended up backed into hedges, Lotus had to 'adjust' the default setup to deal with this.
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