Lotus: the future Hmmmmmm.....

Lotus: the future Hmmmmmm.....

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Fatrat

Original Poster:

682 posts

198 months

Chimjunkie

2,879 posts

218 months

Monday 20th December 2010
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Sounds good to me. Lotus have a history of engine development and now have someone on the team who can make this happen AFAIK.
TVR fked up big time by cutting costs and stealing the engine design away from the designer before properly finished.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

281 months

Monday 20th December 2010
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predictable I know, but let's hope they make a better engine than the last 'Lotus' one!

GKP

15,099 posts

248 months

Tuesday 21st December 2010
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I'm curious to know what you think is/was wrong with the V8 engine, as this is the second time this week I've noticed you've expressed cynicism about it.


Lawrence5

1,253 posts

242 months

Tuesday 21st December 2010
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“British Porsche”

I feel sick

Lawrence5

1,253 posts

242 months

Tuesday 21st December 2010
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GKP said:
I'm curious to know what you think is/was wrong with the V8 engine, as this is the second time this week I've noticed you've expressed cynicism about it.
V8 wasn’t all bad but.... did suffer from:-
Porous block and HGF
Idler pulley and/or cambelt failure
Sealant failing which allowed water into the cylinders and sump.
Overheating (often just expansion tank not pressurising and proper circulation)
Turbo failures
Seals around the spark plug cover fail and let water in rusting the spark plugs into the head

Most were fixed with updates to the engine..... just rushed to get it made and had silly patents they were trying to protect.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

281 months

Tuesday 21st December 2010
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GKP said:
I'm curious to know what you think is/was wrong with the V8 engine, as this is the second time this week I've noticed you've expressed cynicism about it.
Ask anybody that has owned one a while or has to work on one.

myriad of issues with them, from the cam chain/belt idler shaft boring it's way though the block, bad block/head castings, breaking manifolds, oil issues, etc etc.

most of the issues IMHO were down to first pass design problems, that with any other manufacture would have been sorted out before production, but as with all Lotus stuff, that never seems to happen.

that said, idea's like having both a cam chain and belt seemed to be asking for trouble

GKP

15,099 posts

248 months

Tuesday 21st December 2010
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Ask anybody that has owned one a while or has to work on one.
I've owned two. Both were fine, couldn't kill them and not for a want of trying! They do seem to suffer a bad press and all the foibles you and Lawrence have pointed out are pretty much sorted now. There aren't many engines out there, even from mainstream manufacturers, that don't have one weakness or another.

LivinLaVidaLotus

1,626 posts

208 months

Tuesday 21st December 2010
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Not only that, Lotus have a lot more engine design experience under their belt (or chain if you prefer) now.

RonnieP

1,153 posts

234 months

Tuesday 21st December 2010
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Lotus sorted and improved the Aston V12 - Yay

F.C.

3,897 posts

215 months

Thursday 23rd December 2010
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RonnieP said:
Lotus sorted and improved the Aston V12 - Yay
Haha, two mondeo V6 engines cast together, when will they actually build a bespoke motor that is truly worthy of the Aston marque?

Scuffers

20,887 posts

281 months

Thursday 23rd December 2010
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F.C. said:
RonnieP said:
Lotus sorted and improved the Aston V12 - Yay
Haha, two mondeo V6 engines cast together, when will they actually build a bespoke motor that is truly worthy of the Aston marque?
exactly.

it's one thing to work and improve an existing engine, but to do one from clean sheet is another matter all together.

not suggesting that Lotus could not do this, but the time-scales and money required would be VAST, even the best have issues and take time to work out, ie. BMW's V8, great engine now, but look at the issues they had in the early days, and your telling me they did this on a shoe-string?


Monkey boy 1

2,063 posts

238 months

Thursday 23rd December 2010
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Scuffers said:
F.C. said:
RonnieP said:
Lotus sorted and improved the Aston V12 - Yay
Haha, two mondeo V6 engines cast together, when will they actually build a bespoke motor that is truly worthy of the Aston marque?
exactly.

it's one thing to work and improve an existing engine, but to do one from clean sheet is another matter all together.

not suggesting that Lotus could not do this, but the time-scales and money required would be VAST, even the best have issues and take time to work out, ie. BMW's V8, great engine now, but look at the issues they had in the early days, and your telling me they did this on a shoe-string?
.
and you whinge about the Esprit V8 engine ? Is there nothing out there that satisfies you ?

GR4

442 posts

259 months

Thursday 23rd December 2010
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He's just illustating the point of how difficult and expensive it is to develop an engine from scratch, even for the big boys, and the reason why so few low volume manufacturers attempt to do it (and even fewer succeed). Seems fair enough to me?

Scuffers

20,887 posts

281 months

Thursday 23rd December 2010
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GR4 said:
He's just illustating the point of how difficult and expensive it is to develop an engine from scratch, even for the big boys, and the reason why so few low volume manufacturers attempt to do it (and even fewer succeed). Seems fair enough to me?
exactly.

if it was easy/cheap/quick then everybody would be at it.

the fact Toyota used Yamaha for a lot of there engine design work sort of intestates the point, when you consider that Toyta are still the biggest car co on the planet.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure Lotus Engineering could design a new engine just fine, the question is how long it would take and how much it will cost.

Philygumbo

1,500 posts

256 months

Sunday 26th December 2010
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Congratulations Scuffers, even when Monkey boy goaded you the response was calm and concise.
Has the tourettes been cured? I expected at least one four letter word.
Still a very interesting thread though.

ravon

603 posts

289 months

Monday 27th December 2010
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Scuffers,

The bit I don't get is that Lotus is alleged to be a world wide top design consultancy, but from their own history it's clear they can't design engines, they are hopeless at gear linkages, they struggle with designing a water tight car, they can't do air conditioning systems.

I've always been led to believe that the famous design consultancy was not much more than a contract drawing office, filled with a few key permanent staff, and the bulk being transitory contractors, who are relatively low cost due to the lack of suitable competitive design work in Norfolk ?

If you Google "Tony Shute", about half way down the first page you will find a video lecture of his about the development of the Evora. A very interesting and revealing piece. He is clearly massively proud of the fact that the whole car was "developed" in 27 months. But clearly from the Evora's short history there is a clear difference between a car that Lotus consider to be "developed" and one that is "developed" by a main stream manufacturer. My guess is another year to make all the bits work, that clearly don't work properly on early Evora's. This 27 month's doesn't include any power train or transmission development either.

I believe Lotus excel in producing excellent lowish speed driving characteristics and ride, because they have good skilled people to do this and they have the Hethal test track, which is great for producing a car to impress journalists, and provide lots of sideways tyre smoking ( no LSD ?) opportunities for photographers.

My guess is the last truly developed Lotus was the M100, ( and that was far from perfect ! ) which had General Motors money and standards imposed on it, and if I remember correctly around 50 Mules running all over the world.

Yet I still passionately love Lotus, my most exciting christmas present was the wonderful new Ludvigsen book on Colin Chapmam. For me there lies the problem, Colin Chapman for all his faults made Lotus really special, his beaming face at the yearly launch of the next great innovative Formula 1 car fed back into people's enthusiasm for owning a tiny piece of that magic by buying a road car. I don't see some slick suited eurospeaking non-engineer MBA ever getting close to even understanding Lotus, there alone producing a range of "could be anything" fantasy cars.

For all that I don't much care for the Evora ( although I have to say it's a grower ) it is almost certainly the last Lotus, Lotus, and probably should be supported for that !

Regards &
Happy New Year !


PS. did you see the "on the fly" video interview with Danny B at the Paris Show on Jalopnik, I think it says it all ?

bencollins

3,556 posts

212 months

Monday 27th December 2010
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i agree with most of that except i reckon the current elise SC and S are the best car they ever made by a long way, A genuine folk supercar, handmade and exclusive for a reasonable price, well built,
just not profitable cos of too many bits and bobs underneath. Statistically Loti resale is unbeatable if you ignore the first 3 years. Except its not got a big enough appeal /volume cos it needs,
an easy slidy roof, proper luggage space,
cheaper to make chassis and
dingable cheaper to make body panels.
Those demands are not impossible and would treble the appeal.

This weekend I will be skating, cross country skiing, wolf watching etc. You need some boot space for living and doing stuff.

If they had invested in developing the elise organically instead of sp#¤%ing £60m on the Evora it would be world class (I think it kind of is anyhoo but can be better), as usual british car manufacturers want to have a a gazillion half developed product lines instead of one world class world beating one. There is not a single Lotus dealership in Sweden one of only 3 euro countries not in the economic soup. Export penetration is generally pathetic, they need a five year limited warranty and that takes development, cars these days cost peanuts and aren’t the rubbish they used to be. Tough market conditions. -20´s all last week here, would you want to go out in a british sports car in -28? maybe with a 5 year warranty, otherwise no.

Re the future, petrol £2 a litre is round the corner as the arabs and world gets tired of pictures of the queen printed like newspaper, how many people can afford to run a thirsty V8 and cope with the inevitable £20000 pa depr ? and why wouldn’t they buy the mcclaren? whats the point of opening a vegetable shop next door to an established one.

Lotus should be the volkssuperwagon, lightweight plus 3 or 4 cyl turbo motor / El versions, thoroughly developed with softcore / hardcore variants based on one economically producable platform sold worldwide.

anonymous-user

61 months

Monday 27th December 2010
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The ludicrus multi car line-up was bad enough. This just takes the biscuit.

The mans an idiot. A well paid, egocentric idiot.

Lotus will be dead by 2014.

footsoldier

2,272 posts

199 months

Wednesday 29th December 2010
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I think the master plan is somewhat different than we might expect.

The Elige market has probably had its day as a major money earner - the toys and safety bits are heavier, but people have got more used to having them. Also, the European market is difficult to penetrate with Ferrari, Porsche etc dominating luxury sports/super car. Evora is great (I might be the only person who's owned both a Europa and an Evora!), but again hasn't been marketed properly, and has no long term future in new range.

However, Lotus brand is still a good one - witness the two team fight over it in F1 this year. F1 is chasing the 'new money' at the expense of Europe, and that's what I think the new Lotus team intend to do. They are owned by Malaysians, yet have 'heritage' and therefore credibility. I believe they intend to be the first 'Eastern' supercar manufacturer. A design and engineering facility in UK, and everything else produced elsewhere, and sold primarily elsewhere.

Look at the Chinese cars such as the Geely http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/... and imagine if they had a credible European brand, combined with money and manufacture out with Europe. They wouldn't have to clone, they would own the whole package. These guys didn't come in from Ferrari, AMG etc to just try to chip away at a mature market in my opinion, they are going to move Lotus upmarket in a new market.