EliseParts - Honda Gearbox for Toyota Engine?
Discussion
I've had an email flyer from EliseParts and amongst their 'new stuff in 2011' is a kit to use a Honda gearbox in a Toyota car, as we all know, tuning the Toyota engine is limited because the standard gearbox will only allow 280 lb ft of torque (or something like that). So 300+ bhp Toyota engined cars are simply not on the cards, unless you replace the gearbox (as per Frank, who has a Toyota 5-speed in his IIRC).
Now, assuming this kit isn't silly money, does this mean that now we can open up the full potential of the Toyota engine? I know the Honda K20 is respected by everyone and is a great engine, but it's a big job swapping everything over. If a stronger gearbox is a financially sensible option, can we go to town on the standard Toyota engine?
Has anyone tried this? I'm thinking more of a bigger, different supercharger - not a twincharged to-hell-with-the-budget Ronin job.
How well does the Toyota engine respond to tuning? It's well used in the USA, surely? Are 300+ bhp cars as easy to achieve as the Honda cars offer? And with a souped up blower, charge cooler etc., would a Toyota engine enable retention of the aircon?
If the cost ends up making the swap cost-comparable to a full-on Honda engine swap then there's little point. But if it's not that hard or expensive, then could one be getting the best of both worlds here? Or is the Toyota engine simply inferior to the Honda in every way?
Now, assuming this kit isn't silly money, does this mean that now we can open up the full potential of the Toyota engine? I know the Honda K20 is respected by everyone and is a great engine, but it's a big job swapping everything over. If a stronger gearbox is a financially sensible option, can we go to town on the standard Toyota engine?
Has anyone tried this? I'm thinking more of a bigger, different supercharger - not a twincharged to-hell-with-the-budget Ronin job.
How well does the Toyota engine respond to tuning? It's well used in the USA, surely? Are 300+ bhp cars as easy to achieve as the Honda cars offer? And with a souped up blower, charge cooler etc., would a Toyota engine enable retention of the aircon?
If the cost ends up making the swap cost-comparable to a full-on Honda engine swap then there's little point. But if it's not that hard or expensive, then could one be getting the best of both worlds here? Or is the Toyota engine simply inferior to the Honda in every way?
Love it, why use 10 words when you can use 261...
if the std Yota C64 box could deal with 280lb/ft torque then nobody would have a problem! (it's more like ~150lb/ft).
Reason EP went this route is that the Honda box has proven a decent, strong, reliable 6 speed box with a nice change, they have been extensively used on SC Honda's running north of 200lb/ft for years, and whist they are not un-breakable, you can count the failures on one hand.
the 'kit' is relatively straight forward, does not involve cutting anything, and it's completely reverse-able. It's likely to be packaged with a new lightweight flywheel (although that's not essential), and used a Honda pattern clutch (although there will be options for 7¼ or 5½ twin-plate race items too).
There are two sets of ratio's available with the Honda box, and also the option of a Torsen LSD (as well as a plethora of after-market ones).
2ZZ engines are not as strong as K20's, however some people prefer to stick to them, and with some work, they can make good power, EP will be launching a turbo kit shortly, followed by a SC kit, hence the development of a gearbox solution first.
if the std Yota C64 box could deal with 280lb/ft torque then nobody would have a problem! (it's more like ~150lb/ft).
Reason EP went this route is that the Honda box has proven a decent, strong, reliable 6 speed box with a nice change, they have been extensively used on SC Honda's running north of 200lb/ft for years, and whist they are not un-breakable, you can count the failures on one hand.
the 'kit' is relatively straight forward, does not involve cutting anything, and it's completely reverse-able. It's likely to be packaged with a new lightweight flywheel (although that's not essential), and used a Honda pattern clutch (although there will be options for 7¼ or 5½ twin-plate race items too).
There are two sets of ratio's available with the Honda box, and also the option of a Torsen LSD (as well as a plethora of after-market ones).
2ZZ engines are not as strong as K20's, however some people prefer to stick to them, and with some work, they can make good power, EP will be launching a turbo kit shortly, followed by a SC kit, hence the development of a gearbox solution first.
s111spp said:
carl carlson said:
It probably works out cheaper overall to swap to a honda.
I wouldn't have thought so if you've already got a hi powered (i.e. s/c) Toyota powered car.carl carlson said:
It probably works out cheaper overall to swap to a honda.
That rather depends on where your starting from though.if you already have a 2-11 or cup 260 etc, and are currently using C64 boxes as consumables, what are your options?
this gearbox option is not going to cost anything like the £10K start price for a Honda (engine) conversion.
Scuffers said:
carl carlson said:
It probably works out cheaper overall to swap to a honda.
That rather depends on where your starting from though.if you already have a 2-11 or cup 260 etc, and are currently using C64 boxes as consumables, what are your options?
this gearbox option is not going to cost anything like the £10K start price for a Honda (engine) conversion.
Now I've already got a bit more than 240 bhp in my Exige. I'm not interested in tuning for 270 bhp if it costs many thousands - the payoff isn't good enough (I'll continue chucking the money at driver training, and tyres). I was teased by Lotus with a simple ECU job for £500 that apparently was tweakable to 270 bhp in my car, because the Performance Pack and Sport Pack together apparently had the bigger injectors, stronger clutch, bigger intercooler, etc. and therefore the only difference between my engine and a Cup 260 was the ECU. I'm *still* not sure whether this is the case or not because of the FUD but apparently not, and Lotus won't sell me the part with a warranty.
OK, fair enough. Honda conversions with charge cooler offer BIG power but you need to change the whole damn lot. And I asked you about this before Simon - the air con isn't something that is kept with the standard kit, and so if I wanted my comfy, do-it-all everyday Exige with potloads of Honda power then I'd lose the air con, which would make the car significantly less 'everyday' (for information, I've been driving mine to the station every day this week, there is sheet ice everywhere and it's hard to walk. The Exige has failed *once* (I let the battery run down) - I charged the battery, and it's started first time ever since, the winter tyres and the frankly amazing Lotus Traction Control make it hilarious in the ice (I did a few laps of the ice-rink car park laughing out loud, it's that good - then turned off the TC and found how slippery it *really* was out there - amazingly clever). As a result I'm a weird customer since whilst I'd like big power, I also want to use the car every day).
If swapping to the Honda box doesn't alter the dimensions much then I can have a nicer shift (though the Toyota *shift* is very nice on mine) and can work on my engine to much larger power whilst keeping the existing NVH where it is, and keeping the air con, no?
Also - as I've found through the forum - the really irritating slow clutch take-up on full-bore standing starts isn't just me, someone else here has had *exactly* the same issue. It's clearly something to do with the clutch design, and only the PP clutch (nobody has had it on standard cars). Until Lotus find the fault and fix it, swapping to a Honda box would also fix this annoying problem…
carl carlson said:
s111spp said:
carl carlson said:
It probably works out cheaper overall to swap to a honda.
I wouldn't have thought so if you've already got a hi powered (i.e. s/c) Toyota powered car.Thorburn said:
I didn't think Honda conversions were available 'off the shelf' for the Toyota engined cars yet either. I saw someone had done a 2-11 and maybe one or two others, but nowhere near the number of K-series conversions.
well, 'someone' is MSC/me, and yes, they are available "off the shelf" as you put it.Scuffers said:
Thorburn said:
I didn't think Honda conversions were available 'off the shelf' for the Toyota engined cars yet either. I saw someone had done a 2-11 and maybe one or two others, but nowhere near the number of K-series conversions.
well, 'someone' is MSC/me, and yes, they are available "off the shelf" as you put it.cyberface said:
Scuffers said:
Thorburn said:
I didn't think Honda conversions were available 'off the shelf' for the Toyota engined cars yet either. I saw someone had done a 2-11 and maybe one or two others, but nowhere near the number of K-series conversions.
well, 'someone' is MSC/me, and yes, they are available "off the shelf" as you put it.Scuffers said:
Thorburn said:
I didn't think Honda conversions were available 'off the shelf' for the Toyota engined cars yet either. I saw someone had done a 2-11 and maybe one or two others, but nowhere near the number of K-series conversions.
well, 'someone' is MSC/me, and yes, they are available "off the shelf" as you put it.Must be an absolute monster in a 2-11!
cyberface said:
Are 300+ bhp cars as easy to achieve as the Honda cars offer?
No - its a 10% smaller engine capacity (approx) so for the same level of tune it will give 10% less power. And I believe there is an oil return problem on the Yota engine when used hard - the passageways are small and oil gets pumped into the head faster than it can get back to the sump.. Certainly thats what Lotus told me was the reason they piped in an external return from the head to the sump on the cars they have tuned for racing.bordseye said:
cyberface said:
Are 300+ bhp cars as easy to achieve as the Honda cars offer?
No - its a 10% smaller engine capacity (approx) so for the same level of tune it will give 10% less power. And I believe there is an oil return problem on the Yota engine when used hard - the passageways are small and oil gets pumped into the head faster than it can get back to the sump.. Certainly thats what Lotus told me was the reason they piped in an external return from the head to the sump on the cars they have tuned for racing.Seems that 350 bhp in the supercharged and charge-cooled Hondas is readily achievable though - knock 10% off that and 300 bhp should be possible in the existing Toyota engine without major engine rebuilding, surely? What power level were Lotus aiming at when they needed the auxiliary oil return (though TBH an auxiliary head-to-sump oil return pipe doesn't sound like massively expensive engine modification to me)?
Put simply, I absolutely adore my car, and I'm not hearing anything from Lotus that suggests a higher power variant of the same basic chassis is ever going to be made. The entire package is perfect. I'd like more power only because it's fun to have more than necessary - and I've had a Noble and would like that similar 'WTF!' response from passengers just for a laugh. But I'm not making the gearbox a consumable just for a bit of fun.
It's not an immediately important requirement - my car has 240 bhp and is quick enough to be more capable than me on track as it is. However I'd simply be saving my pennies for a supercharged Honda conversion if the aircon could be retained and the car kept pretty much as-is in terms of NVH and daily usability. I use my Exige *everywhere* - it really is *so* capable as an everyday car in all conditions. I love it.
I guess by the time I really *need* to scratch the high-power-Exige itch, and I've got the money to do so, Simon will have engineered a Honda swap kit that retains the aircon. If that's the case, I'll just shut up and wait. No point in doing the job by halves - if it's possible to fit the Honda engine plus gearbox and supercharger AND retain the OEM aircon (which is essential for year-round use) then that's the best of all worlds, and even extends the longevity of the car given that Toyota have stopped making the engines in my car (not that parts will ever be a problem, but Honda engines are reputedly more reliable)...
cyberface said:
Seems that 350 bhp in the supercharged and charge-cooled Hondas is readily achievable though - knock 10% off that and 300 bhp should be possible in the existing Toyota engine without major engine rebuilding, surely? What power level were Lotus aiming at when they needed the auxiliary oil return (though TBH an auxiliary head-to-sump oil return pipe doesn't sound like massively expensive engine modification to me)?
not sure on a like for like basis you can say that?to get a 2ZZ to 300Bhp you are going to have to crack the engine open and change stuff.
Honda K20 in std trim can make 350 without being opened up.
if you did the same level of work on the K20 as the 2ZZ to get to 300Bhp, you would be nearer 400 for the K20
Scuffers said:
cyberface said:
Seems that 350 bhp in the supercharged and charge-cooled Hondas is readily achievable though - knock 10% off that and 300 bhp should be possible in the existing Toyota engine without major engine rebuilding, surely? What power level were Lotus aiming at when they needed the auxiliary oil return (though TBH an auxiliary head-to-sump oil return pipe doesn't sound like massively expensive engine modification to me)?
not sure on a like for like basis you can say that?to get a 2ZZ to 300Bhp you are going to have to crack the engine open and change stuff.
Honda K20 in std trim can make 350 without being opened up.
if you did the same level of work on the K20 as the 2ZZ to get to 300Bhp, you would be nearer 400 for the K20
If it's not, as there simply isn't space, then I have to think of alternatives. It's obvious the full Honda would be the best solution since it's been developed the most. But most of your customers don't care about the aircon, and I do, that's all…
cyberface said:
Just tell me that it's feasible on an engineering basis to keep the aircon in a 300+ bhp Honda converted S2 Exige, Simon, and I'll shut the **** up, eh?
If it's not, as there simply isn't space, then I have to think of alternatives. It's obvious the full Honda would be the best solution since it's been developed the most. But most of your customers don't care about the aircon, and I do, that's all…
it's feasible, it's been one on a couple as one off's, I just have not got to the point of making it a production item yet.If it's not, as there simply isn't space, then I have to think of alternatives. It's obvious the full Honda would be the best solution since it's been developed the most. But most of your customers don't care about the aircon, and I do, that's all…
you need to understand that doing things as one-off's is easy (relatively) however, if you ever plan on supporting these etc, then it's a whole different subject, this is why stuff like this takes time.
Just over 300 is easily achievable with the 2ZZ and I believe fairly common.
I had exige S with chargecooler remap and smaller boost pulley which gave 276 at the hubs which should be more than 300 fly. Did 10K with this setup and many TDays.
Agree its not as reliable as a Honda and if you want more then you have to open the engine.
Should say after 10k with this setup my oil pump exploded however I believe this is fairly common on the 2zz due to aeration at high rpm and not due to the tune.
As regards the C64 Ive seen some people really unlucky as Simon says with a mere 150 lb but Ive also seen some people without any problems, myself included. Ive heard that you can get uprated bearings/gearsets so perhaps this would be a more suitable alternative to changing the box?
I mean (dare I say it?) what about all the driveshaft issues related to the Honda?
Just my 2p/
Craig.
I had exige S with chargecooler remap and smaller boost pulley which gave 276 at the hubs which should be more than 300 fly. Did 10K with this setup and many TDays.
Agree its not as reliable as a Honda and if you want more then you have to open the engine.
Should say after 10k with this setup my oil pump exploded however I believe this is fairly common on the 2zz due to aeration at high rpm and not due to the tune.
As regards the C64 Ive seen some people really unlucky as Simon says with a mere 150 lb but Ive also seen some people without any problems, myself included. Ive heard that you can get uprated bearings/gearsets so perhaps this would be a more suitable alternative to changing the box?
I mean (dare I say it?) what about all the driveshaft issues related to the Honda?
Just my 2p/
Craig.
Just seen this thread....
I've actually got R10CRW's old Exige, and has been (for the past 18 months) running a healthy 300bhp at the fly - made 272 on Sincs hub dyno with a dying fuel pump. 300bhp is fairly easy to achieve, but anymore and the your looking at darton liners, upgraded pistons and oil pump as a minimum. 320~330bhp is acievable with an even smaller pulley on a chargecooled car, but the engine will need strengthening!
My gearbox finally gave up last month - the teeth on 3rd gear have been completely stripped so I've been looking at options. I was all set to go down the replacing 3rd and 4th with the Jubu gearset (£800 alone!), but this is more of a plaster to the problem than a complete fix. A lot of people are also suggesting that the requires an oil cooler to keep temps reasonable on track. I've been talking to Geary about the honda box, and I'm actually hoping to get one of the first kits in January. When you consider the kit will include a lightweight flywheel and clutch plus you can also sell your old gearbox on, then it actually seems not bad value compared to the other options available. All depends I guess on how reliable the honda box will be....
I've actually got R10CRW's old Exige, and has been (for the past 18 months) running a healthy 300bhp at the fly - made 272 on Sincs hub dyno with a dying fuel pump. 300bhp is fairly easy to achieve, but anymore and the your looking at darton liners, upgraded pistons and oil pump as a minimum. 320~330bhp is acievable with an even smaller pulley on a chargecooled car, but the engine will need strengthening!
My gearbox finally gave up last month - the teeth on 3rd gear have been completely stripped so I've been looking at options. I was all set to go down the replacing 3rd and 4th with the Jubu gearset (£800 alone!), but this is more of a plaster to the problem than a complete fix. A lot of people are also suggesting that the requires an oil cooler to keep temps reasonable on track. I've been talking to Geary about the honda box, and I'm actually hoping to get one of the first kits in January. When you consider the kit will include a lightweight flywheel and clutch plus you can also sell your old gearbox on, then it actually seems not bad value compared to the other options available. All depends I guess on how reliable the honda box will be....
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