Exige won't start
Discussion
Needed to race to Essex to get to a shop to buy some leathers for Christmas yesterday as we were late - jumped in the Exige, key in, everything lights up, press starter button, CLICK. CLICK.
Bugger.
No time to mess about so jumped in the Growler and ended up costing £50 in fuel more than the journey would have normally taken, but got some nice leathers and a decent back protector I can use skiing at Christmas too
Anyway, back on topic. The car is new, it was bought in December last year. Batteries, IME, last longer than a year. However due to work commitments, I haven't driven the Exige in three weeks. This, also IME, can be enough to drain a Lotus to the point where it won't start in zero degree conditions (it was, after all, 0˚C yesterday when I tried to start her up).
Question is - am I safe pulling the battery out of the boot, bringing it indoors, charging it up, chucking it back in the car and going from there, or do I just jump-start the car from the contact points at the front panel, or from the battery itself in the boot, or what?
I don't want to fry the ECU or do anything else that'd mess up the current performance and have heard some nasty stories about jump starts and battery removals causing £1000 ECU replacements. Then again, with Lotus you hear virtually anything on the internet… a full charge sounds like a better plan but I've got a long journey next weekend (down to Somerset) so if I can jump start it on the Friday night and that's OK, then I'll be driving at proper speed for three hours which should give the alternator PLENTY of time to charge the battery back up, no?
Removing the battery is more of a job, so if the latter option makes sense and won't fry the ECU, then it's the fastest option for me. All I have to do is drive the Growler next to the Exige, attach jump leads, then I've got a battery and alternator built to start a 4.6 V8 (it's a truck battery, pretty much!) turning over the Lotus - should ping into life immediately. If the 3 hour drive immediately afterwards will bring the battery back to health, then I'll do that.
But it's going to be cold down there next weekend - would a drained battery that's got cold be simply now knackered and need replacing? I think it's a bit much having to buy a new battery after 1 year, but if the combination of frosty weather and the fact that it's drained deeply enough to not start the engine (all ancillaries work, headlights are dim though, but the fans work, so there's *some* power in the battery left) mean that it's needing replacement?
No doubt there'll be a few of us with battery issues in the coming weeks due to the weather (for those of us who drive our Lotuses year-round, of course, and don't have an Optimate-fitted garage to store it in) so thought I'd ask...
Bugger.
No time to mess about so jumped in the Growler and ended up costing £50 in fuel more than the journey would have normally taken, but got some nice leathers and a decent back protector I can use skiing at Christmas too
Anyway, back on topic. The car is new, it was bought in December last year. Batteries, IME, last longer than a year. However due to work commitments, I haven't driven the Exige in three weeks. This, also IME, can be enough to drain a Lotus to the point where it won't start in zero degree conditions (it was, after all, 0˚C yesterday when I tried to start her up).
Question is - am I safe pulling the battery out of the boot, bringing it indoors, charging it up, chucking it back in the car and going from there, or do I just jump-start the car from the contact points at the front panel, or from the battery itself in the boot, or what?
I don't want to fry the ECU or do anything else that'd mess up the current performance
and have heard some nasty stories about jump starts and battery removals causing £1000 ECU replacements. Then again, with Lotus you hear virtually anything on the internet… a full charge sounds like a better plan but I've got a long journey next weekend (down to Somerset) so if I can jump start it on the Friday night and that's OK, then I'll be driving at proper speed for three hours which should give the alternator PLENTY of time to charge the battery back up, no?Removing the battery is more of a job, so if the latter option makes sense and won't fry the ECU, then it's the fastest option for me. All I have to do is drive the Growler next to the Exige, attach jump leads, then I've got a battery and alternator built to start a 4.6 V8 (it's a truck battery, pretty much!) turning over the Lotus - should ping into life immediately. If the 3 hour drive immediately afterwards will bring the battery back to health, then I'll do that.
But it's going to be cold down there next weekend - would a drained battery that's got cold be simply now knackered and need replacing? I think it's a bit much having to buy a new battery after 1 year, but if the combination of frosty weather and the fact that it's drained deeply enough to not start the engine (all ancillaries work, headlights are dim though, but the fans work, so there's *some* power in the battery left) mean that it's needing replacement?
No doubt there'll be a few of us with battery issues in the coming weeks due to the weather (for those of us who drive our Lotuses year-round, of course, and don't have an Optimate-fitted garage to store it in) so thought I'd ask...
It's parked uphill - bump starting ain't going to work as I can't either turn it round to roll back down the hill (one way street, my home street i.e. residential one-car-width road) or push it up to the top flat bit. I *could* attempt a bump-start in reverse rolling backwards into potential oncoming traffic but that'd require quite some skill - as soon as the engine caught, onto the throttle AND the clutch *immediately* - there'd be no room for error since the Lotus accelerates hard with little throttle. And if it didn't catch then I'd be stuck at the bottom of a 90 degree bend blocking traffic.
I reckon, given the amount of power the fans and lights still had, that it'd start up if it was warmer - and that the ambient temperature played a part in it. Don't think it's going to get any warmer though by this Friday evening when I need to take it on a long drive though.
Easiest method would be a quick jump start on Friday, as all I'd need to do is roll the Growler next to the Lotus, attach leads, start Lotus, detach leads, park Growler, get in Lotus and off to Somerset. But if a jump start is *that* risky to the car, then I'd rather not.
Surely the act of removing the battery and then replacing it *fully charged* - i.e. the spike of current as you attach the positive terminal - would be just as bad as doing a jump start?
And why the hell are Lotuses built to be so damn sensitive to things like this? I used to jump start my recalcitrant old cars LOADS of times… The TVR was particularly good at needing a jump, given it had a big fat engine in a small car.
I reckon, given the amount of power the fans and lights still had, that it'd start up if it was warmer - and that the ambient temperature played a part in it. Don't think it's going to get any warmer though by this Friday evening when I need to take it on a long drive though.
Easiest method would be a quick jump start on Friday, as all I'd need to do is roll the Growler next to the Lotus, attach leads, start Lotus, detach leads, park Growler, get in Lotus and off to Somerset. But if a jump start is *that* risky to the car, then I'd rather not.
Surely the act of removing the battery and then replacing it *fully charged* - i.e. the spike of current as you attach the positive terminal - would be just as bad as doing a jump start?
And why the hell are Lotuses built to be so damn sensitive to things like this? I used to jump start my recalcitrant old cars LOADS of times… The TVR was particularly good at needing a jump, given it had a big fat engine in a small car.
I didn't use mine for a week recently and it did exactly the same thing - dash lit up but "click, click, click". As mine is garaged I put my charger on it and unpacked ready to travel in my Rallye instead. But I knew it wasn't far off winter hibernation and really wanted a weekend away in the Elise so thought I'd just try starting it. It started first time so ran down to the local petrol station with lights, stereo and heater off and shut her down while I grabbed some cash. Came back, started again and took me on a 350 mile round trip without issue. Funnily enough my little Rallye tried a similar trick earlier in the week which necessitated battery removal. Charged it and it's been 100% ever since. I sometimes wonder whether cars just need a bit of reassurance when it gets cold...
Fingers crossed that's all that's wrong with yours, Cyberface.
Fingers crossed that's all that's wrong with yours, Cyberface.
Mine wasn't playing ball yesterday morning, was on the trickle charger overnight. I don't disconnect the battery when doing this, i just plug it in where it is, never had a problem. Also I've jump started mine quite a few times at work (lights left on) off other peoples cars, it never seemed to mind but that's no guarantee......
I've never tried a bump start.
I've never tried a bump start.
There's only one thing you can do in this situation, put the car in a shipping container and send it to New Zealand.
By the time it arrives George should have finally finshed on the practice car and he'll be able to sort it for you.
Regards, Neil
PS.Only downside is that you'll have to find something more reliable to drive in the interim 3 years or so.
By the time it arrives George should have finally finshed on the practice car and he'll be able to sort it for you.
Regards, Neil
PS.Only downside is that you'll have to find something more reliable to drive in the interim 3 years or so.
Edited by NJS25 on Monday 29th November 18:27
^^ 
George's car is a LOT more special than mine. Then again perhaps it's comments like this that are upsetting the ginger one and she's got enough battery to connect to the internet and hear me being less than complimentary
From the weather forecasts, the chances of it warming up enough for the obviously-low-on-charge battery to catch the engine are pretty damn low. I don't have a garage and the car is parked too far from a power point to attempt using my trickle charger.
What's the least likely to duff up the electronics in my car?
a) Roll the Growler alongside, switch off. Use jump leads to connect huge Growler battery in parallel with Lotus battery - use the terminals in the boot, not the 'easy access' terminals under the front access panels. Start Lotus, remove jump leads, start Growler, job done. If having the Growler electrics in the circuit with the Lotus electrics when connecting the battery is potentially dangerous, I can disconnect the Growler battery from the Growler (it has a crazy-complex hybrid twin ECU system that's 100 times more notorious than any modern Lotus for being a problem, but mine seems to work);
b) Pull the carpet out of the boot, disconnect Lotus battery, take it indoors, charge battery, replace in Lotus, re-connect and start car.
The only reason I ask such stupid-sounding questions is that option (b) involves leaving the car with ZERO power entirely for a while - the current battery has enough power to drive the fans and interior lights just fine, so it must be keeping the ECU and immobiliser ticking over perfectly. Removing the battery will remove this, and unless the computer in the car has battery backup, any data stored in RAM will be lost and I don't know if this will be a problem or not (oh for the days of carbs and distributors…). Also the car can't easily be told NOT to draw current when the battery is connected again, hence the usual fat spark when you connect the freshly-charged battery again - and the usual Lotus FUD on the internet has got me concerned that the dash electronics or the ECU could have a problem with this…
The other option - a jump start, or a 'booster start', effectively - at least leaves my car being supplied with power all the way through the process. I can slowly ramp up the current demand after connecting the Growler battery to avoid big jumps in demand on the alternator (which will be asking for full power to replenish the depleted Lotus battery when the car starts). However the downside to this approach is that it relies on the battery being serviceable - if I take it out to recharge it, then not only do I find out if the battery is fecked (charger will tell me), but I'll also return the battery to the car in fully charged state. Jump starting it relies on the alternator pumping lots of power into the battery on my long drive - it'd basically give the alternator a lot more load to handle for a while.
The alternator and charging systems are all Toyota parts from the original engine aren't they? If so, they should be reliable. I'm just a bit suspicious that Lotus may have thought 'hey, let's use a lighter alternator to save some weight, there's a box over there with alternators we haven't used for decades - under that pile of heater resistors, see 'Lucas' written on the box - those will do!' and the prospect of a 3 hour drive with the alternator being asked to provide enough current to both charge a battery from nearly-dead AND run the headlights (it'll be a late Friday night drive), full heating fans because of the snow / ice outside… it'd be a full-load test for the system, pretty much.
I really don't want to waste the AA's time doing a callout - they'll just jump it with their portable batteries (which is effectively option (A) with the Growler battery). And if I was someone else in an S1 Elise on Friday night in the freezing cold with a blown head gasket somewhere on the A303, I'd rather the AA guy arrive quickly because he didn't have some prat calling him out to jump start a Toyota-engined 12 month old car. I believe in karma - I'd be pissed if someone were to be the reason I had to wait hours in the freezing cold, so I won't be that reason if someone is in more urgent need of the service than me. Hell, I've got three separate methods of getting this car started that don't involve the AA.
So - given that the AA will probably just use their booster battery to start the car, does that mean my option (A) is the obvious one to go for? The battery is 12 months old, so all I can imagine is that I've not used the car for 3 weeks (will be 4 on Friday) due to far too much work, it's got cold, and has depleted charge below starter-motor requirements. Since the fans and interior lights still work, that's not enough of a 'deep discharge' to have ruined a lead-acid battery is it? I'll be driving down to Somerset, so assuming the battery isn't ruined by the experience, it should have another year of service left in it, surely? My old VX220 battery lasted two winters, and the Growler's big old battery lasted three (but was driven more frequently, but normally very short journeys that weren't enough to replenish the charge lost to starting the big V8).
Since my cars live outside, and I can't use a battery conditioner, I expect a two-three year working life from a decent battery. Sounds reasonable, no? Or does the battery brand that Lotus fit as OEM to the Exige (haven't checked it yet) come from the worst Chinese battery factory in China?
I think it'll be fine. Nobody's saying 'don't jump the car, it'll fry the ECU' or anything, so I think that my paranoia may be related to the STACK instruments in the S1 Elise, and my car isn't an S1 and hasn't got STACK instruments. I don't even know if there was a *true* problem with the STACK kit but there was FUD, and perhaps I'm worrying about the FUD. If the Growler can survive both jump starts and battery removal (given its ridiculous ECU situation) then a nearly-standard Toyota engine MUCH be able to… Anyway it's still in warranty so I'll see what the driver handbook says about jump starts, and do that
George's car is a LOT more special than mine. Then again perhaps it's comments like this that are upsetting the ginger one and she's got enough battery to connect to the internet and hear me being less than complimentary
From the weather forecasts, the chances of it warming up enough for the obviously-low-on-charge battery to catch the engine are pretty damn low. I don't have a garage and the car is parked too far from a power point to attempt using my trickle charger.
What's the least likely to duff up the electronics in my car?
a) Roll the Growler alongside, switch off. Use jump leads to connect huge Growler battery in parallel with Lotus battery - use the terminals in the boot, not the 'easy access' terminals under the front access panels. Start Lotus, remove jump leads, start Growler, job done. If having the Growler electrics in the circuit with the Lotus electrics when connecting the battery is potentially dangerous, I can disconnect the Growler battery from the Growler (it has a crazy-complex hybrid twin ECU system that's 100 times more notorious than any modern Lotus for being a problem, but mine seems to work);
b) Pull the carpet out of the boot, disconnect Lotus battery, take it indoors, charge battery, replace in Lotus, re-connect and start car.
The only reason I ask such stupid-sounding questions is that option (b) involves leaving the car with ZERO power entirely for a while - the current battery has enough power to drive the fans and interior lights just fine, so it must be keeping the ECU and immobiliser ticking over perfectly. Removing the battery will remove this, and unless the computer in the car has battery backup, any data stored in RAM will be lost and I don't know if this will be a problem or not (oh for the days of carbs and distributors…). Also the car can't easily be told NOT to draw current when the battery is connected again, hence the usual fat spark when you connect the freshly-charged battery again - and the usual Lotus FUD on the internet has got me concerned that the dash electronics or the ECU could have a problem with this…
The other option - a jump start, or a 'booster start', effectively - at least leaves my car being supplied with power all the way through the process. I can slowly ramp up the current demand after connecting the Growler battery to avoid big jumps in demand on the alternator (which will be asking for full power to replenish the depleted Lotus battery when the car starts). However the downside to this approach is that it relies on the battery being serviceable - if I take it out to recharge it, then not only do I find out if the battery is fecked (charger will tell me), but I'll also return the battery to the car in fully charged state. Jump starting it relies on the alternator pumping lots of power into the battery on my long drive - it'd basically give the alternator a lot more load to handle for a while.
The alternator and charging systems are all Toyota parts from the original engine aren't they? If so, they should be reliable. I'm just a bit suspicious that Lotus may have thought 'hey, let's use a lighter alternator to save some weight, there's a box over there with alternators we haven't used for decades - under that pile of heater resistors, see 'Lucas' written on the box - those will do!'
and the prospect of a 3 hour drive with the alternator being asked to provide enough current to both charge a battery from nearly-dead AND run the headlights (it'll be a late Friday night drive), full heating fans because of the snow / ice outside… it'd be a full-load test for the system, pretty much.I really don't want to waste the AA's time doing a callout - they'll just jump it with their portable batteries (which is effectively option (A) with the Growler battery). And if I was someone else in an S1 Elise on Friday night in the freezing cold with a blown head gasket somewhere on the A303, I'd rather the AA guy arrive quickly because he didn't have some prat calling him out to jump start a Toyota-engined 12 month old car. I believe in karma - I'd be pissed if someone were to be the reason I had to wait hours in the freezing cold, so I won't be that reason if someone is in more urgent need of the service than me. Hell, I've got three separate methods of getting this car started that don't involve the AA.
So - given that the AA will probably just use their booster battery to start the car, does that mean my option (A) is the obvious one to go for? The battery is 12 months old, so all I can imagine is that I've not used the car for 3 weeks (will be 4 on Friday) due to far too much work, it's got cold, and has depleted charge below starter-motor requirements. Since the fans and interior lights still work, that's not enough of a 'deep discharge' to have ruined a lead-acid battery is it? I'll be driving down to Somerset, so assuming the battery isn't ruined by the experience, it should have another year of service left in it, surely? My old VX220 battery lasted two winters, and the Growler's big old battery lasted three (but was driven more frequently, but normally very short journeys that weren't enough to replenish the charge lost to starting the big V8).
Since my cars live outside, and I can't use a battery conditioner, I expect a two-three year working life from a decent battery. Sounds reasonable, no? Or does the battery brand that Lotus fit as OEM to the Exige (haven't checked it yet) come from the worst Chinese battery factory in China?
I think it'll be fine. Nobody's saying 'don't jump the car, it'll fry the ECU' or anything, so I think that my paranoia may be related to the STACK instruments in the S1 Elise, and my car isn't an S1 and hasn't got STACK instruments. I don't even know if there was a *true* problem with the STACK kit but there was FUD, and perhaps I'm worrying about the FUD. If the Growler can survive both jump starts and battery removal (given its ridiculous ECU situation) then a nearly-standard Toyota engine MUCH be able to… Anyway it's still in warranty so I'll see what the driver handbook says about jump starts, and do that
RatLad said:
I have jumped my Elise S1 three times wth no issues as far as I am aware - is there something I need to be aware of?
Yes Ratland don't leave it too long before you drive it,ie minimum once a week,the alarm systems fitted to the Lotus gobble up the battery like anything,either ensure a frequent drive,buy a battery conditioner or as I do,disconnect the negative battery terminal.Only disconnect the battery if you don't mind you're saved radio stations having to be saved again,I don't use the radio as I have my Elise for weekends only so just use cd's.Also ensure you have de armed the alarm first.
I have no experience with Elise or Exige, but I did have a similar problem with my second car as well. It was in a garage for about 2/3 weeks and had the exact same problems. Everything on dash lights up, yet just a bit of click click when trying to start. Problem: battery dead. Jump started it, worked fine, drove 100 miles. Got back, week later, same problem...
I took the battery out, checked it, seemed fine. Used a trickle charger. Back in, started, no problem. Week later: same problem... I was getting furious because i checked everything when i left the car: lights out, no 12V chargers etc. I decided to open everything, from doors to trunk to glovebox to check what i was missing... Guess what: the light in the glovebox was on and apparently didn't go out when i closed it...
Repaired the light, charged the battery, no worries. Week later: dead battery, same problem. Ripped out all of my hair and decided enough was enough. Took the battery to a specialist (bald) and he told me: battery is shot. This battery was just 8 months old in a 60.000 euro car...
Lesson: batteries just don't like to get fully drained in a slow matter over a long time, they will die. Lesson 2: check your lights... everywhere. Lesson 3: get an A-quality battery, because they will replace it with a new one even though it was my mistake. Thanks Bosch!!
Of course the Exige has no glove box, so that's a load of you shoulders
Just make sure NOTHING is switched on, the smallest load can wear a battery down in about 3 weeks and if it has done so a few times you're up for a new battery...
I took the battery out, checked it, seemed fine. Used a trickle charger. Back in, started, no problem. Week later: same problem... I was getting furious because i checked everything when i left the car: lights out, no 12V chargers etc. I decided to open everything, from doors to trunk to glovebox to check what i was missing... Guess what: the light in the glovebox was on and apparently didn't go out when i closed it...
Repaired the light, charged the battery, no worries. Week later: dead battery, same problem. Ripped out all of my hair and decided enough was enough. Took the battery to a specialist (bald) and he told me: battery is shot. This battery was just 8 months old in a 60.000 euro car...
Lesson: batteries just don't like to get fully drained in a slow matter over a long time, they will die. Lesson 2: check your lights... everywhere. Lesson 3: get an A-quality battery, because they will replace it with a new one even though it was my mistake. Thanks Bosch!!
Of course the Exige has no glove box, so that's a load of you shoulders
Just make sure NOTHING is switched on, the smallest load can wear a battery down in about 3 weeks and if it has done so a few times you're up for a new battery...All that worry was over nothing. The car ended up looking like this:
so I cleared some snow, removed the battery according to instructions (on Thursday night) - put it on my battery charger / conditioner, then on Friday night I had 45 minutes to get from the following state:
…to driving down to Somerset to see the family. The roads weren't clear until I hit the M25, and the few 4x4s that were around were sliding about at very low speed. It was silly conditions for normal tyres. Even my winter tyres were happily drifting around unless I took it *really* steady - as evidenced by the one lad in a 3 series BMW on winter tyres taking the piss drifting everywhere
However after a nice overnight charge the battery seems to be fine - it's restarted the car after each cold night down in Taunton, no doubt leaving it for a couple of weeks will kill it again, but having found out how damn easy it is to swap the battery on a new Exige (it took me less than 15 minutes) and the car hasn't played any funny ECU nonsense, I'll probably wait until it next plays the 'click click click' game, and then pop out in the Growler to get a Bosch Silver and bung it in.
Hopefully the winter tyres for the Growler will be delivered by then… already had my first order cancelled due to no stock
so I cleared some snow, removed the battery according to instructions (on Thursday night) - put it on my battery charger / conditioner, then on Friday night I had 45 minutes to get from the following state:
…to driving down to Somerset to see the family. The roads weren't clear until I hit the M25, and the few 4x4s that were around were sliding about at very low speed. It was silly conditions for normal tyres. Even my winter tyres were happily drifting around unless I took it *really* steady - as evidenced by the one lad in a 3 series BMW on winter tyres taking the piss drifting everywhere
However after a nice overnight charge the battery seems to be fine - it's restarted the car after each cold night down in Taunton, no doubt leaving it for a couple of weeks will kill it again, but having found out how damn easy it is to swap the battery on a new Exige (it took me less than 15 minutes) and the car hasn't played any funny ECU nonsense, I'll probably wait until it next plays the 'click click click' game, and then pop out in the Growler to get a Bosch Silver and bung it in.
Hopefully the winter tyres for the Growler will be delivered by then… already had my first order cancelled due to no stock
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