Help Required re: imminent Elise 111s purchase
Discussion
Greetings all. I am about to buy my first Elise & have identified a potentially suitable car. I read all the buyers guides I could get my hands on & now I am curious to get your opinions on whether this is a good deal or not.
The car is here;
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2201974.htm
It has had new pads all around, 4 x new Bridgestone Potenza tyres. However it has not had the Lotus-recommended cambelt service which I am told should be done after 4 years irrespective of mileage. Th dealership say it does not need to be done but I believe Lotus sent out a service update recommending the change after 4 years.
The only things I can find fault with are a wobbly clutch pedal (requiring a tighten up or a new clutch cable?), a bit of wear on the drivers seat & the sill on the drivers side & some stone chips. Overall the cars appears to drive well, but does feel a bit more "loose" than other 111s's I have test driven.
The previous owner replaced a NSR track rod - is this a sign of a hard life or is this an acceptable thing to be done?
The garage have agreed to throw in 6 months tax & the cambelt service for the sticker price of £14249 and will not budge a further inch.
What do you all think? Am I asking too much from the dealership? Should I wait for another car to come up. Or, should I wait a few months more & see if I can scrape another £2k & get a 111R?
All opinions greatly welcome.
The car is here;
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2201974.htm
It has had new pads all around, 4 x new Bridgestone Potenza tyres. However it has not had the Lotus-recommended cambelt service which I am told should be done after 4 years irrespective of mileage. Th dealership say it does not need to be done but I believe Lotus sent out a service update recommending the change after 4 years.
The only things I can find fault with are a wobbly clutch pedal (requiring a tighten up or a new clutch cable?), a bit of wear on the drivers seat & the sill on the drivers side & some stone chips. Overall the cars appears to drive well, but does feel a bit more "loose" than other 111s's I have test driven.
The previous owner replaced a NSR track rod - is this a sign of a hard life or is this an acceptable thing to be done?
The garage have agreed to throw in 6 months tax & the cambelt service for the sticker price of £14249 and will not budge a further inch.
What do you all think? Am I asking too much from the dealership? Should I wait for another car to come up. Or, should I wait a few months more & see if I can scrape another £2k & get a 111R?
All opinions greatly welcome.
Hmmm, my understanding was the cam belt change was due every 4 years so I cannot understand why they think it wasn’t required. A pessimist might suggest that they could use this to squirm out of any warranty claims on account of the car not being serviced properly…
If it were me, and it felt ‘loose’, I would probably walk away regardless of the cam belt.
As far as 111S versus 111R, they are very different cars – drive both before you decide as not everybody gets on with the 111R’s on/off power delivery.
Mike…
If it were me, and it felt ‘loose’, I would probably walk away regardless of the cam belt.
As far as 111S versus 111R, they are very different cars – drive both before you decide as not everybody gets on with the 111R’s on/off power delivery.
Mike…
it looks clean enough, but then again, the pics are not great quality so hard to see the detail....
Clutch is hydraulic, so your going to have to explain what you mean by wobbly?
by "NSR track rod" I assume they mean rear toe link?
now, the joints being changed is nothing to get worried about (they don't last forever) but to have to change the whole link would beg the question why?, I would be wanting to take a good look at that corner of the car checking for other signs of issues (like the corner of the sub-frame being tweeked etc.)
Cam belts should have been done by now, 5 years is absolute tops for them, and it's not like it's a huge bill or the like (should have been part of std service for the age of car if it has a FSH like it's advertised as).
Money wise, probably a bit out of touch, but seems a lot to me for a 6 year old car, it would have to be in A1 condition for that kind of cash IMHO.
realistically, if you have any doubts/questions about it, I would want it inspected by somebody that knows what they are looking at (ie. NOT the AA/RAC/etc), either that or walk away.
Taking a quick look in classifieds, this one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2209062.htm
looks a better spec/price
Clutch is hydraulic, so your going to have to explain what you mean by wobbly?
by "NSR track rod" I assume they mean rear toe link?
now, the joints being changed is nothing to get worried about (they don't last forever) but to have to change the whole link would beg the question why?, I would be wanting to take a good look at that corner of the car checking for other signs of issues (like the corner of the sub-frame being tweeked etc.)
Cam belts should have been done by now, 5 years is absolute tops for them, and it's not like it's a huge bill or the like (should have been part of std service for the age of car if it has a FSH like it's advertised as).
Money wise, probably a bit out of touch, but seems a lot to me for a 6 year old car, it would have to be in A1 condition for that kind of cash IMHO.
realistically, if you have any doubts/questions about it, I would want it inspected by somebody that knows what they are looking at (ie. NOT the AA/RAC/etc), either that or walk away.
Taking a quick look in classifieds, this one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2209062.htm
looks a better spec/price
Good S2 111S are around and well worth the wait. Cambelt should be changed and also a second belt for the VVC too. Maybe over your budget but there was a mint S2 111S at Lipscombs Lotus, Maidstone a couple of weeks ago and 'Parky' is a great guy.
As said above 111R is a different beast and the power deilvery quite different in many ways.
As said above 111R is a different beast and the power deilvery quite different in many ways.
Check that the heater fans work properly on all speeds. It's a common fault for the resister pack to rust to pieces and it's quite expensive to fix because it requires taking the whole front of the car to bits. Cam belts should be done every 4 years. Check for any signs of head gasket failure. Check the paint carefully for bubbling just behind the boot.
It probably shouldn't be feeling "loose" at that mileage but Elises are quite hard on their suspension components. It might just need the geo doing correcting.
It's common (and as far as I know, not easy to fix) for the clutch pedal to move from left to right, but there should be no vertical play in it.
I drove several 111Ss and 111Rs and greatly preferred the 111S. It's well worth driving both though, since there's not a huge difference in price any more.
ETA: Oh and I wouldn't pay more for a hard top, personally. I have one and I used it once before deciding it was a complete waste of time.
It probably shouldn't be feeling "loose" at that mileage but Elises are quite hard on their suspension components. It might just need the geo doing correcting.
It's common (and as far as I know, not easy to fix) for the clutch pedal to move from left to right, but there should be no vertical play in it.
I drove several 111Ss and 111Rs and greatly preferred the 111S. It's well worth driving both though, since there's not a huge difference in price any more.
ETA: Oh and I wouldn't pay more for a hard top, personally. I have one and I used it once before deciding it was a complete waste of time.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 2nd November 13:50
Agree with what everyone's said.
I personally preferred the 111S, and still rate the '04 car I had as the best car I've ever owned.
Ware on the driver's seat and scuff panel isn't really a problem - quite common, and pretty difficult not to have it occur considering how you enter/exit the car!
If it feels "loose" as you say, it seems to me you are being quite correct and sensible in thinking hard. Get someone indipendent to check it out - i don't know who's good at the moment so wouldn't know where to piont you. I do however completely agree that Parky at Lipscombs in Maidstone is a top chap, very helpful.
I personally preferred the 111S, and still rate the '04 car I had as the best car I've ever owned.
Ware on the driver's seat and scuff panel isn't really a problem - quite common, and pretty difficult not to have it occur considering how you enter/exit the car!
If it feels "loose" as you say, it seems to me you are being quite correct and sensible in thinking hard. Get someone indipendent to check it out - i don't know who's good at the moment so wouldn't know where to piont you. I do however completely agree that Parky at Lipscombs in Maidstone is a top chap, very helpful.
Hi All.
Genuine thanks on the responses so far! I think I'll ignore this car now - not got a good feeling about it & your replies tally with my feeling.
Re: the timing of the cambelt change replies have reinforced my uneasy feeling with the dealership & the view of their salesman regarding it. When I asked him to clarify with his Lotus mechanic (seeing as they are a Lotus main dealer, not an unreasonable request) he went quite vague. I also agree with you when you say the car actually doesn't have a full service history as a result. I expect he probably knows it should be done & is trying to get away with not spending the necessary cash on it by selling it onto an unsuspecting person. Not me!
Re: the differences between a 111S & a 111R, thanks for the info - I had not thought about how much different they would be beyond the latter being Toyota-engined and a faster car. So, taking your advice, I am going to find one at a garage & test drive it to compare. Based on your feedback, I suspect the power delivery of the 111S might be more suited to me but I will keep an open mind.
To further clarify the wobbly clutch pedal, when pressed it has what I would describe as vertical "slack" for the first 1-1.5 inches of travel where it feels as if it is not attached to anything - then it tightens up (apologies for the poor descriptions) and feels like it is attached to something. Does that make sense? Also, the car advert link you attached, I saw this too & only ignored it as I would prefer a hard top & thought it might be over my budget to get it included. But, screw it!, I will give them a ring tomorrow morning & see if I can have a look at it this weekend.
HODDO, your link looks interesting! Sadly, it will take a few months more before that could become within my reach.
Overall, these Elises have really got under my skin - they are bloody amazing! I used to have an old '86 911 3.2 Carrera Sport a few years ago & the Elise is (and I am shocked to say this) even more fun! I am really looking forward to owning one of these.
Mike, Scuffers, Hoddo, Jack6284, Kambites & Tony; genuine thanks for the replies. If interested, I will post how things go on my search. My goal is to get one so I can drive it to Ireland at Christmas.
Take care all.
Genuine thanks on the responses so far! I think I'll ignore this car now - not got a good feeling about it & your replies tally with my feeling.
Re: the timing of the cambelt change replies have reinforced my uneasy feeling with the dealership & the view of their salesman regarding it. When I asked him to clarify with his Lotus mechanic (seeing as they are a Lotus main dealer, not an unreasonable request) he went quite vague. I also agree with you when you say the car actually doesn't have a full service history as a result. I expect he probably knows it should be done & is trying to get away with not spending the necessary cash on it by selling it onto an unsuspecting person. Not me!
Re: the differences between a 111S & a 111R, thanks for the info - I had not thought about how much different they would be beyond the latter being Toyota-engined and a faster car. So, taking your advice, I am going to find one at a garage & test drive it to compare. Based on your feedback, I suspect the power delivery of the 111S might be more suited to me but I will keep an open mind.
To further clarify the wobbly clutch pedal, when pressed it has what I would describe as vertical "slack" for the first 1-1.5 inches of travel where it feels as if it is not attached to anything - then it tightens up (apologies for the poor descriptions) and feels like it is attached to something. Does that make sense? Also, the car advert link you attached, I saw this too & only ignored it as I would prefer a hard top & thought it might be over my budget to get it included. But, screw it!, I will give them a ring tomorrow morning & see if I can have a look at it this weekend.
HODDO, your link looks interesting! Sadly, it will take a few months more before that could become within my reach.
Overall, these Elises have really got under my skin - they are bloody amazing! I used to have an old '86 911 3.2 Carrera Sport a few years ago & the Elise is (and I am shocked to say this) even more fun! I am really looking forward to owning one of these.
Mike, Scuffers, Hoddo, Jack6284, Kambites & Tony; genuine thanks for the replies. If interested, I will post how things go on my search. My goal is to get one so I can drive it to Ireland at Christmas.
Take care all.
ColonelKurtz said:
To further clarify the wobbly clutch pedal, when pressed it has what I would describe as vertical "slack" for the first 1-1.5 inches of travel where it feels as if it is not attached to anything - then it tightens up (apologies for the poor descriptions) and feels like it is attached to something. Does that make sense? Also, the car advert link you attached, I saw this too & only ignored it as I would prefer a hard top & thought it might be over my budget to get it included. But, screw it!, I will give them a ring tomorrow morning & see if I can have a look at it this weekend.
vertical slack is either air in the system (needs beading), or the clutch itself is in trouble, that said, most likely the first (but easy to diagnose by visual inspection)Am booked in to see this car on Saturday http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2209062.htm
Hardtop is sold separately & the vendor says it has some bubbling on it.
I have also been in contact with Scott Walker (ex Bell & Colville) in the hope he can find me a good car within my budget.
I am getting impatient & looking forward to having an Elise on my driveway, even through the height of Winter.
Hardtop is sold separately & the vendor says it has some bubbling on it.
I have also been in contact with Scott Walker (ex Bell & Colville) in the hope he can find me a good car within my budget.
I am getting impatient & looking forward to having an Elise on my driveway, even through the height of Winter.
It's not just the power curve that differs between a 111S and a 111R; the 111R has servo assisted brakes (and ABS), a six speed gearbox, an air bag, and a few other odds and ends. It also weighs significantly more.
It was the brakes as much as the engine that put me off the 111R.
It was the brakes as much as the engine that put me off the 111R.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 3rd November 14:07
That is heartening to hear. Apparently he has set out on his own now & is working from home. Alan & Karl at Specialised Paintwork put me in contact with him; I know & trust these guys a lot from the days of them looking after the bodywork of my old 911.
I shall pass your regards onto Scott!
I shall pass your regards onto Scott!
ColonelKurtz said:
Am booked in to see this car on Saturday http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2209062.htm
Hardtop is sold separately & the vendor says it has some bubbling on it.
from the pics it looks like a clean car...Hardtop is sold separately & the vendor says it has some bubbling on it.
Just make sure if you don't know what your looking at, find somebody that does and take the time to crawl over it.
kambites said:
It's not just the power curve that differs between a 111S and a 111R; the 111R has servo assisted brakes (and ABS), a six speed gearbox, an air bag, and a few other odds and ends. It also weighs significantly more.
It was the brakes as much as the engine that put me off the 111R.
Aye, I had a chat with Scott Walker about the differences this morning; he said the same as you (excluding the preference). It was the brakes as much as the engine that put me off the 111R.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 3rd November 14:07
While I will definitely seek out an 'R' to drive, as the 'S' is more within budget & I already love the way it drives, it will more than likely be the one I buy. At least I hope so; I don't think I can wait the length of time it will take to save the extra for the 'R'!
Don't fall into the trap of confusing the '111S' with the 'S', they are (as has been covered here many times before), totally different cars. Most of the references on this thread, including the links that you have posted, are about a 111S, and will not be true of the S.
Edited by Loudman on Wednesday 3rd November 18:46
Loudman said:
Don't fall into the trap of confusing the '111S' with the 'S', they are (as has been covered here many times before), totally different cars. Most of the references on this thread are about a 111S, and will not be true of the S.
A fair point Loudman. When I was referring to 'S' & 'R' above, I was indeed referring to the 111S & 111R; I was just lazy & excluded the 111 :-). Hi All.
I went to see the red 2005 111S at Hi-Torq yesterday. Only 14,000 miles with one owner. The car drove really well and felt nice & tight, nothing at all like the silver car I mentioned in an earlier post. Service history for the car was minimal; if I remember correctly it only had two - one at c 5k miles in 2006 & one at c 12k miles in 2009. It has not had a cambelt service. Tyres & wheels were all ok.
Cosmetically, there are some scratches & it looks like the owner didn't cherish the car like I would have liked them to have! Overall it is in a good condition, but not in as immaculate a condition as the mileage would make you think.
The guy at Hi-Torq (I now forget his name) seemed to know his stuff and was nice to deal with.
Dilemma, dilemma, dilemma...it is a nice car but not in as immaculate condition as I would like (I am probably too fussy) and the car is Ardent red; it looks great in that colour but I am a bit worried about red cars fading to pink after an old Porsche 9444 I owned. Also, I would need to get the paint chips sorted - anyone know how well the mobile Chips Away-type people can blend paint chips in on a bright red car? Finally, is it a big deal the car has minimal service history bearing in mind it has not been driven very much?
Also, I went to the dark side at the weekend & drive a 2005 Boxster 2.7; bloody nice car to drive! Tempting as a purchase, to be honest. But, after wanting an Elise for a number of years now, I think I need one even if just to get it out of my system.
As usual, your thoughts & advice are greatly received.
I went to see the red 2005 111S at Hi-Torq yesterday. Only 14,000 miles with one owner. The car drove really well and felt nice & tight, nothing at all like the silver car I mentioned in an earlier post. Service history for the car was minimal; if I remember correctly it only had two - one at c 5k miles in 2006 & one at c 12k miles in 2009. It has not had a cambelt service. Tyres & wheels were all ok.
Cosmetically, there are some scratches & it looks like the owner didn't cherish the car like I would have liked them to have! Overall it is in a good condition, but not in as immaculate a condition as the mileage would make you think.
The guy at Hi-Torq (I now forget his name) seemed to know his stuff and was nice to deal with.
Dilemma, dilemma, dilemma...it is a nice car but not in as immaculate condition as I would like (I am probably too fussy) and the car is Ardent red; it looks great in that colour but I am a bit worried about red cars fading to pink after an old Porsche 9444 I owned. Also, I would need to get the paint chips sorted - anyone know how well the mobile Chips Away-type people can blend paint chips in on a bright red car? Finally, is it a big deal the car has minimal service history bearing in mind it has not been driven very much?
Also, I went to the dark side at the weekend & drive a 2005 Boxster 2.7; bloody nice car to drive! Tempting as a purchase, to be honest. But, after wanting an Elise for a number of years now, I think I need one even if just to get it out of my system.
As usual, your thoughts & advice are greatly received.
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