Discussion
Something i know has been discussed a bunch of times, but it seemed to me to be possibly more relevant now what with the 211 Honda that mr Scuffers has recently produced being a tempting option for people with yota engined cars.
I know the internals are suppsoed to be weaker and not as well suited to supercharging, i know as it stands that the fn2 civic with that engine has FBW throttle. These things aside for 2 moments why is there nothing, or will there be as far as anyone is aware, a conversion with this engine available for the elise anytime soon.
The dear mr Stormin Norman did i believe tell me he had put one in the back of an elise, and CPL racing i heard were aswell (although when i e-mailed them they were a little cagey [understandably]about it).
Is there a particular reason Mr Scuffham why you haven't as yet, or in fact have you and subsequently decided against it?
I know the internals are suppsoed to be weaker and not as well suited to supercharging, i know as it stands that the fn2 civic with that engine has FBW throttle. These things aside for 2 moments why is there nothing, or will there be as far as anyone is aware, a conversion with this engine available for the elise anytime soon.
The dear mr Stormin Norman did i believe tell me he had put one in the back of an elise, and CPL racing i heard were aswell (although when i e-mailed them they were a little cagey [understandably]about it).
Is there a particular reason Mr Scuffham why you haven't as yet, or in fact have you and subsequently decided against it?
several reasons stop us using them at the moment, you have already identified 2, but there are others, nothing insurmountable, but all costs money.
I have done a few as development jobs, but the costs are a problem at the moment (people already think £10K is expensive, and this stuff only put's that up).
Not saying this will always be the case.... it's a moving goalpost.
I have done a few as development jobs, but the costs are a problem at the moment (people already think £10K is expensive, and this stuff only put's that up).
Not saying this will always be the case.... it's a moving goalpost.
Well i had wondered about the DBW issue. Is it a viable option to convert (if in fact this can be done) to a non DBW system. I think in regards the internals it needn't necessarily an issue. you know, it's a bit like the difference between buying a 1.4 or a 1.8 Ford Focus. Much as some people will tune them without consideration to longevity or much else in fact, generally when people buy a car then are buying something they are happy with. Personaly whilst i like a good dose of power i'm not arsed about having 300 plus!
For example Mr Scuffers are the mounts much of an issue, or can the existing honda ones be used to any degree. also with the 111R would a K20Z be any easier
For example Mr Scuffers are the mounts much of an issue, or can the existing honda ones be used to any degree. also with the 111R would a K20Z be any easier
n_wootton said:
Well i had wondered about the DBW issue. Is it a viable option to convert (if in fact this can be done) to a non DBW system. I think in regards the internals it needn't necessarily an issue. you know, it's a bit like the difference between buying a 1.4 or a 1.8 Ford Focus. Much as some people will tune them without consideration to longevity or much else in fact, generally when people buy a car then are buying something they are happy with. Personaly whilst i like a good dose of power i'm not arsed about having 300 plus!
For example Mr Scuffers are the mounts much of an issue, or can the existing honda ones be used to any degree. also with the 111R would a K20Z be any easier
DBW has been a problem, as almost no after-market ECU is approved for use on a road car with DWB, yes quite a few support it, but no, they have not had them homologated/certified.For example Mr Scuffers are the mounts much of an issue, or can the existing honda ones be used to any degree. also with the 111R would a K20Z be any easier
Now, for a 111R conversion, it's not a big deal as fitting a cable to them is easy (using lotus parts), it's only an issue with the newer engines, you then get into replacing throttle bodies, etc etc etc. nothing insurmountable, but it all costs, hence why I have been working on an ECU solution for DBW (now done).
Mounts wise, I have designed a complete new set for the Toyota chassis, having more room to play with really made life much easier, as there is room for the engine to move about more than the Rover platform could give, so I spec'ed less harsh mounts etc, also, the drive line angle is now at 0 degrees.
bordseye said:
why would you want to change a 111R from Toyota to Honda? Even if you blew up the Yota engine it would be way cheaper to repair it than to install a Honda. The power difference when tuned is small anyway.
your kidding right?I have spoken to several people now that have been charged £6-7K by Lotus to replace their NA 2ZZ's, combine this with the simple fact that 2zz's have not been made for almost a year now, they are not exactly going to get any easier to replace (Yes, I know Lotus are taking the piss, you could probably get a short engine fitted for ~£3-4K)
ignoring all of that, the std NA K20 install at ~225-230Bhp offers more performance than the current Exige S + PP, and if you have an Elise, that's not an option.
then consider how fragile the std Toyota gearbox is, start putting any real power though them and they fail, yes, you can buy aftermarket gears for them, or chop it out for a 153 box, but at what cost and the gearsets are still only a sticking plaster, they are no magic solution.
Right, now consider bolting a supercharger to the Honda and your now able to have 300-380+ reliable BHP, something just not possible with a std 2ZZ, bolted to a gearbox that will not self-destruct at the first sign of some power.
Yes, I know people make claims they have done XY & Z, but have you actually seen any that have run for more than a dyno session?
Honda cars have been running these levels for several years now, quite a few in race cars.
This is the dyno print form one of these installs, now show me an off the shelf, warrentee'd 2ZZ option that's even close.
Scuffers said:
n_wootton said:
your kidding right?
I have spoken to several people now that have been charged £6-7K by Lotus to replace their NA 2ZZ's, combine this with the simple fact that 2zz's have not been made for almost a year now, they are not exactly going to get any easier to replace (Yes, I know Lotus are taking the piss, you could probably get a short engine fitted for ~£3-4K)
ignoring all of that, the std NA K20 install at ~225-230Bhp offers more performance than the current Exige S + PP, and if you have an Elise, that's not an option.
then consider how fragile the std Toyota gearbox is, start putting any real power though them and they fail, yes, you can buy aftermarket gears for them, or chop it out for a 153 box, but at what cost and the gearsets are still only a sticking plaster, they are no magic solution.
Right, now consider bolting a supercharger to the Honda and your now able to have 300-380+ reliable BHP, something just not possible with a std 2ZZ, bolted to a gearbox that will not self-destruct at the first sign of some power.
Yes, I know people make claims they have done XY & Z, but have you actually seen any that have run for more than a dyno session?
Honda cars have been running these levels for several years now, quite a few in race cars.
This is the dyno print form one of these installs, now show me an off the shelf, warrentee'd 2ZZ option that's even close.
The data I can find on the K20 Z1,2 and 3 gives power anywhere between 155 bhp and 197 at standard not 230. But thats not really the issue - my guess is that the large majority of S2 owners arent interested in 300 bhp willy waving rights and find the S or R standard outputs quite enough. Sure if you want to tune to more than 260, it stands to common sense that the 2 litre engine is better than a 1.8 all other things being equal.I have spoken to several people now that have been charged £6-7K by Lotus to replace their NA 2ZZ's, combine this with the simple fact that 2zz's have not been made for almost a year now, they are not exactly going to get any easier to replace (Yes, I know Lotus are taking the piss, you could probably get a short engine fitted for ~£3-4K)
ignoring all of that, the std NA K20 install at ~225-230Bhp offers more performance than the current Exige S + PP, and if you have an Elise, that's not an option.
then consider how fragile the std Toyota gearbox is, start putting any real power though them and they fail, yes, you can buy aftermarket gears for them, or chop it out for a 153 box, but at what cost and the gearsets are still only a sticking plaster, they are no magic solution.
Right, now consider bolting a supercharger to the Honda and your now able to have 300-380+ reliable BHP, something just not possible with a std 2ZZ, bolted to a gearbox that will not self-destruct at the first sign of some power.
Yes, I know people make claims they have done XY & Z, but have you actually seen any that have run for more than a dyno session?
Honda cars have been running these levels for several years now, quite a few in race cars.
This is the dyno print form one of these installs, now show me an off the shelf, warrentee'd 2ZZ option that's even close.
But for someone with a worn out 2ZZ and not wanting high poweroutputs, it surely has to be cheaper to replace like with like maybe using a second hand from a celica as opposed to a second hand from a honda. The lotuis 6k is not a fair comparison since you cant buy a Honda engine from Lotus. And neither is the guarantee from a tuner comparable with the Lotus one.
Is anyone doing Honda conversions for Yota engined cars yet?
bordseye said:
The data I can find on the K20 Z1,2 and 3 gives power anywhere between 155 bhp and 197 at standard not 230. But thats not really the issue - my guess is that the large majority of S2 owners arent interested in 300 bhp willy waving rights and find the S or R standard outputs quite enough. Sure if you want to tune to more than 260, it stands to common sense that the 2 litre engine is better than a 1.8 all other things being equal.
But for someone with a worn out 2ZZ and not wanting high poweroutputs, it surely has to be cheaper to replace like with like maybe using a second hand from a celica as opposed to a second hand from a honda. The lotuis 6k is not a fair comparison since you cant buy a Honda engine from Lotus. And neither is the guarantee from a tuner comparable with the Lotus one.
Is anyone doing Honda conversions for Yota engined cars yet?
I am really struggling to understand where your coming from with all this?But for someone with a worn out 2ZZ and not wanting high poweroutputs, it surely has to be cheaper to replace like with like maybe using a second hand from a celica as opposed to a second hand from a honda. The lotuis 6k is not a fair comparison since you cant buy a Honda engine from Lotus. And neither is the guarantee from a tuner comparable with the Lotus one.
Is anyone doing Honda conversions for Yota engined cars yet?
1) K20's in the back of Elises have been making 225+ bhp for 7+ years now, there are literately hundreds of dyno plot's from them littering the web, where are you been? under a rock?
2) Yes, there is a version for the 111R, have you not paid *any* attention?
3) Nobody is suggesting that everybody should rush out and bin their 2ZZ, it's just another option that some people have asked for and can now have.
it's not like anybody is holding a gun to your head and telling you that you must have one is it?
Same way you don't have to buy a supercharged Exige if you don't want one, it's called personal choice.
I've experienced the Toyota in a 111R and a basic NA Honda converted S2 Elise - felt a world of difference to me. Very underwhelmed by the Toyota, very impressed by the Honda. That's not to say the Toyota is a bad engine - it's good, but not at all exciting and lacking in "ooomph" and drama, which the Honda had in spades.
Scuffers said:
I am really struggling to understand where your coming from with all this?
Then try reading what I wrote! My original comment was in response to someone who was asking about a Honda engine but not interested in 300 bhp. And if you are happy with the power that can be got out of the 2ZZ, why would you want to go to what I would guess would be considerable extra expense to modify everything that is necessary to insert the Honda.What is the cost of sticking a second hand standard Honda engine & box in a previously Toyota engined S2 Elise compared with replacing the Toyota engine with an equivalent second hand?
Its a genuine question because sooner or later there will be 111R owners with knackered engines who arent looking for extra power.
bordseye said:
Scuffers said:
I am really struggling to understand where your coming from with all this?
Then try reading what I wrote! My original comment was in response to someone who was asking about a Honda engine but not interested in 300 bhp. And if you are happy with the power that can be got out of the 2ZZ, why would you want to go to what I would guess would be considerable extra expense to modify everything that is necessary to insert the Honda.What is the cost of sticking a second hand standard Honda engine & box in a previously Toyota engined S2 Elise compared with replacing the Toyota engine with an equivalent second hand?
Its a genuine question because sooner or later there will be 111R owners with knackered engines who arent looking for extra power.
Herman Toothrot said:
bordseye said:
Scuffers said:
I am really struggling to understand where your coming from with all this?
Then try reading what I wrote! My original comment was in response to someone who was asking about a Honda engine but not interested in 300 bhp. And if you are happy with the power that can be got out of the 2ZZ, why would you want to go to what I would guess would be considerable extra expense to modify everything that is necessary to insert the Honda.What is the cost of sticking a second hand standard Honda engine & box in a previously Toyota engined S2 Elise compared with replacing the Toyota engine with an equivalent second hand?
Its a genuine question because sooner or later there will be 111R owners with knackered engines who arent looking for extra power.
Interesting Golly. How much of a job was it to insert the Honda into the Yota subframe? Power apart, is there much difference in use ie extra noise or harshness. Does the gear linkage work as well as the Lotus / Yota one does? And did you look at second hand 2ZZ engines or just compare second hand Hondas with new Yota engines?
bordseye said:
Interesting Golly. How much of a job was it to insert the Honda into the Yota subframe? Power apart, is there much difference in use ie extra noise or harshness. Does the gear linkage work as well as the Lotus / Yota one does? And did you look at second hand 2ZZ engines or just compare second hand Hondas with new Yota engines?
The work is being done at the moment but not by me - I don't know the difference between a spanner and a screwdriver. As I understand it the engine and gearbox mounts are replaced and the Honda engine sits lower in the car than the yota. There is also a lot more space in the engine bay for access. Extra noise? Difficult to tell as the conversion isn't finished. I am repacing the rudely loud exhaust silencer with a track compliant one so that will reduce noise from the tail. I drove the garage's demo sc exige and it was loud but it was the noise of the supercharger whine that was noticeable.
I did look for 2nd hand yotas but I'm no mechanic and I wanted to avoid buying a dog. As mentioned in previous post the cost difference between replacing the Yota and converting to Honda was small enough to go down the Honda route. I also get a 12 month guarantee on the conversion.
so then - no k20z in the back of an elise then. one wonders what may happen when HOnda stop supplying the engine in the uk, if maybe people will see it as a more viable option on the basis that eventually there will be a type r with a different engine complkiant with current emissions regs. so people will start being more careless with their FN2's
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