Europa for me?
Discussion
Just been road testing a 2008 Europa and thinking,should i buy it? Trouble is i think it may have a couple of faults on it....It has the 225 upgrade but i thought the power delivery and performance was not that good. I know its a turbo car and the torque is not instant but with this one,as you squeezed on the power it would start to go and then loose it then go again..Enough to make your head nod when it does it!I was expecting great things from it but was left a little disappointed,although it did handle rather well! The other thing was that on over run there was a rumble and vibration from the back end...It seemed that if you lifted off at 2500rpm in third or fourth say, it would start the rumble that would continue almost to 1000rpm. The dealer says he will fix these problems but i guess really i want to know that at least the power thing is not "normal" for these cars?
Other than that i really like the look of these cars,even though you need to keep a tin of evostick handy when owning one! Do people think they will become a car that Lotus would prefer to forget? Or is it quite liked by you Lotus lovers?
By the way i am not quite new to Lotus as i have an aging +2 and a Lotus engined Healey for my sins! I am of course a fan of "performance through lightness" but it does make me wonder why we pay lots of money for cars that the bits fall of all the time!
Other than that i really like the look of these cars,even though you need to keep a tin of evostick handy when owning one! Do people think they will become a car that Lotus would prefer to forget? Or is it quite liked by you Lotus lovers?
By the way i am not quite new to Lotus as i have an aging +2 and a Lotus engined Healey for my sins! I am of course a fan of "performance through lightness" but it does make me wonder why we pay lots of money for cars that the bits fall of all the time!
I test drove a Europa about 10 months ago and found the same rumble when lifting off the throttle - we put it down to anti-lag but turns out they don't have anti-lag...so never found out what it was. 
That car is still for sale but is an 07 car - thought maybe you were looking at the same car - maybe its a common problem, or just normal!
Not sure about the power drop after the turbo engages though - if the dealer is going to sort it out then thats good - hopefully they'll offer a warranty too.
They are lovely cars, just never really a massive hit - they are a compromise on the Elise/Exige, being slightly more civilised but similar cost. There are a few Europa owners around and they tell you how fab they are and all the upgrades that you can do to make it even better, and a lot of non-owners who either have or haven't driven one that will have opinions too, good bad or indifferent.
I think they are very pretty, and because there are so few of them you get a chance to be different!
To be honest - it's what your heart tells you what counts, it's your car at the end of the day!
I didn't buy one because I'd had an Exige before, and for me it didn't quite hit the spot I had been used to. I think it was mostly down to the turbo'd engine in the end, oh and slippery full leather seats - I just didn't feel comfortable with it, so walked away. I got back into an Exige in Jan in the end - and happy as larry!
Good luck!
You might get more response on Seloc - there are definitely a few active Europa owners over there.
That car is still for sale but is an 07 car - thought maybe you were looking at the same car - maybe its a common problem, or just normal!Not sure about the power drop after the turbo engages though - if the dealer is going to sort it out then thats good - hopefully they'll offer a warranty too.
They are lovely cars, just never really a massive hit - they are a compromise on the Elise/Exige, being slightly more civilised but similar cost. There are a few Europa owners around and they tell you how fab they are and all the upgrades that you can do to make it even better, and a lot of non-owners who either have or haven't driven one that will have opinions too, good bad or indifferent.
I think they are very pretty, and because there are so few of them you get a chance to be different!
To be honest - it's what your heart tells you what counts, it's your car at the end of the day!
I didn't buy one because I'd had an Exige before, and for me it didn't quite hit the spot I had been used to. I think it was mostly down to the turbo'd engine in the end, oh and slippery full leather seats - I just didn't feel comfortable with it, so walked away. I got back into an Exige in Jan in the end - and happy as larry!
Good luck!
You might get more response on Seloc - there are definitely a few active Europa owners over there.
The uneven delivery of power towards the top end of the rev range is a 'feature' of both the standard and 225 Europa S. It is supposedly much more apparent on the standard cars, but I have never driven the 200PS version, so can't offer a first hand opinion.
It has been speculated that the unevenness in the original map is due to the need to meet a particular emissions target. The official CO2 figure is just under 225g for all Europa S models (there is no published figure in the UK for the 225 upgrade, as it's a dealer fitted upgrade.)
Those Europa owners who've fitted a Miltek exhaust report that the problem is further reduced. When/if an aftermarket ECU upgrade becomes available, I would definitely be expecting a improvement in power delivery (not to mention lots more power
) but I don't find that it's ever an issue in day-to-day driving, as it's something you only observe if you spend a lot of time near the redline, and imho, that's not really what the Europa's about.
Regarding the rumble on the overrun, in 10k miles of driving my Europa, I can honestly say that I've never noticed any such noise.
Edit to say that that, having re-read the original post, I'm not sure that the power delivery problem observed on the test drive is the same as the TADTS problem I described. If the dealer says that both problems will be fixed, what, if any, diagnosis have they given for the problems?
It has been speculated that the unevenness in the original map is due to the need to meet a particular emissions target. The official CO2 figure is just under 225g for all Europa S models (there is no published figure in the UK for the 225 upgrade, as it's a dealer fitted upgrade.)
Those Europa owners who've fitted a Miltek exhaust report that the problem is further reduced. When/if an aftermarket ECU upgrade becomes available, I would definitely be expecting a improvement in power delivery (not to mention lots more power
) but I don't find that it's ever an issue in day-to-day driving, as it's something you only observe if you spend a lot of time near the redline, and imho, that's not really what the Europa's about.Regarding the rumble on the overrun, in 10k miles of driving my Europa, I can honestly say that I've never noticed any such noise.
Edit to say that that, having re-read the original post, I'm not sure that the power delivery problem observed on the test drive is the same as the TADTS problem I described. If the dealer says that both problems will be fixed, what, if any, diagnosis have they given for the problems?
Edited by Movano on Sunday 1st August 01:15
I think they all have a little bit of a flat spot but it varies from car to car. As others have said, it is usually less noticeable on the 225 upgrade cars but it's still there. It happens on VX Turbos as well (I had one before my Europa), but it seems easier to tune out of the VX (I think the Europa has a different ECU which is harder to tune).
I've never had a noise on overrun from mine. As above, these sorts of things happen (or dont happen) from car to car so it's worth trying several before making your mind up.
I've never had a noise on overrun from mine. As above, these sorts of things happen (or dont happen) from car to car so it's worth trying several before making your mind up.
Thanks for the replies people! The power loss was not top end but more like 2000rpm so would really spoil day to day driving. I guess the car has a dual mass flywheel so the rumble could be that,although I have not seen one fail in this manner before. There was only the sales guys at the dealer and he had no idea what it might be,he did agree that it felt wrong and would have it in the workshop for a diagnosis asap. I drive a slightly tuned Astra vxr daily and it has no power delivery issues, just pulls like a train! I was hoping the Europa would be like that because with the Lotus chassis and looks it would be just fantastic! After driving 200 miles home in the Astra I still felt disappointed with the Europa! So far though!
Sounds a bit odd to me in our car when you keep it in gear the torque builds in two areas of the rev range 2-3K and 5-6K. 95% of the time I find I can get round by tiptoeing the throttle and changing up at below 3.5K revs. Not pressing on the throttle and then smacking it down tends to show up lag, keeping your foot always lightly on the throttle and feeding in power tends to give a very good response. It’s hard to explain, but the engine needs good managing. It does feel rewarding when you get it right. Rather than worrying where my car is in the road I tend to be more conscious of what my right foot is doing.
The Europa is an odd car to drive in that sense. Its not like a hot hatch where the engine is just another component and its the chassis or tyres that needs nursing. The engine tends to be the most character full part of the car the chassis is the part that is forgiving.
Personally I liked the initial growl when lifting off or when using the engine to slow the car. Thought it sounded a bit like the old Mclaren F1 car. However It does feel like it could be causing wear in the engine and thought it probably isn’t doing any favours to the engine mounts so generally started lifting off slowly and when decelerating quickly I tend to dip the clutch, which probably causes other issues. But hey.
The worse sound is on start up. It does sound a bit tractor like.
The Europa is an odd car to drive in that sense. Its not like a hot hatch where the engine is just another component and its the chassis or tyres that needs nursing. The engine tends to be the most character full part of the car the chassis is the part that is forgiving.
Personally I liked the initial growl when lifting off or when using the engine to slow the car. Thought it sounded a bit like the old Mclaren F1 car. However It does feel like it could be causing wear in the engine and thought it probably isn’t doing any favours to the engine mounts so generally started lifting off slowly and when decelerating quickly I tend to dip the clutch, which probably causes other issues. But hey.
The worse sound is on start up. It does sound a bit tractor like.
Well i think i had best wait and see what the dealer workshop say about it,if its TADTS i wont buy it and wont bother looking at another one! It just cant be normal, iv'e had turbo cars for 17 years and that one was not good! I know they normaly build boost and then feel like its "gone flat" when the wastgate controls the boost,thats why they feel better when you feed in the throttle...The Europa felt like the wastgate opened and the the ecu went "oh no dont,close it again!"
I have driven quite a few VX220's and never known the rumble/vibe,but they are 5 speed and i dont think they have a dual mass flywheel....
I guess i thought it would be a smoothed out Exige with a lower price and an easy to tune engine. Maybe not but then i have not driven the Exige,yet.
Still think the shape is great though,especially the rear,just wish it did not disappoint!
I have driven quite a few VX220's and never known the rumble/vibe,but they are 5 speed and i dont think they have a dual mass flywheel....
I guess i thought it would be a smoothed out Exige with a lower price and an easy to tune engine. Maybe not but then i have not driven the Exige,yet.
Still think the shape is great though,especially the rear,just wish it did not disappoint!
Hi There,
The rumble on overrun is due to the engine stabiliser bar being out of tolerance. Mine got so bad after a couple of months ownership it was like driving over a shallow cattle grid.
I was initially fobbed off by Lotus themselves saying 'that's part of the cars driving dynamics'. My reply was to the point to say the least.
My car went back to the factory and eventually came back sweet, not a sniff of rumble! Very happy.
Power delivery, mine was improved with the Milltek but then seem to get more noticable, particularly on track.
I have now fitted a charge cooler (it was done in preparation for a power upgrade - still chasing this) and I'm very pleased to say that my power delivery issues have gone! The car has been transformed. Every now and then (when weather is hot) may get a slight hint of it, nothing worth mentioning really.
There are currently two leads being followed up regarding the reprogramming of the stock ECU. This will really sort the car.....
Lisa
My Europa is out of warranty now - what is this engine stabilise thing you talk about ??
Is it internal (moving at high speed) or just an external brace ?
Its always done it - would the factory sort or should I go to an indie ?
Any ideas how much ?
Mind you, I've lived with it for 2 years, how serious can it be ?
Is it internal (moving at high speed) or just an external brace ?
Its always done it - would the factory sort or should I go to an indie ?
Any ideas how much ?
Mind you, I've lived with it for 2 years, how serious can it be ?
Hi Lisa
wondered where you had been. Sorry to hijack the thread but who did the chargecooler, Randy?
Funny you say the power delivery is more noticeable on track, I always find it less so as you are always at high revs. Also did anyone explain why the charge cooler should make a difference?
I also heard that you have a harness bar fitted. Is this the case and if so which one did you find that will clear the speakers?
Mine also vibrates under braking some times. Not too bad on mine so just ignore it but I also heard it was tolerance on the engine mounting.
cheers
Christian
wondered where you had been. Sorry to hijack the thread but who did the chargecooler, Randy?
Funny you say the power delivery is more noticeable on track, I always find it less so as you are always at high revs. Also did anyone explain why the charge cooler should make a difference?
I also heard that you have a harness bar fitted. Is this the case and if so which one did you find that will clear the speakers?
Mine also vibrates under braking some times. Not too bad on mine so just ignore it but I also heard it was tolerance on the engine mounting.
cheers
Christian
Hi Christian,
the original charge cooler is to short. So especially on track you have high air temperatures coming out of the charge cooler, the ecu noticed that and the engine is running in “protected mode”, the engine will be enriched at a charge air temperature over 57 degree C.
So keep the charge air as cool as you can! Randy develop the charge cooler for Lisa and pro alloy build the system. It is available at pro alloy.
cheers
Marc
the original charge cooler is to short. So especially on track you have high air temperatures coming out of the charge cooler, the ecu noticed that and the engine is running in “protected mode”, the engine will be enriched at a charge air temperature over 57 degree C.
So keep the charge air as cool as you can! Randy develop the charge cooler for Lisa and pro alloy build the system. It is available at pro alloy.
cheers
Marc
Hi Marc
thanks for the feedback. I can see why the charge cooler will give more power but I though the shape of the power curve was due to the ECU trimming back the torque, is this not correct? Anyway great news that a bigger charge cooler has been sorted, this should be a real help.
cheers
Christian
thanks for the feedback. I can see why the charge cooler will give more power but I though the shape of the power curve was due to the ECU trimming back the torque, is this not correct? Anyway great news that a bigger charge cooler has been sorted, this should be a real help.
cheers
Christian
The engine stabiliser is external, there is one at the front and rear of the engine. Talk to Lotus directly at the factory. They may still do it for you (my radiator was out of warranty and they still replaced it - Pro Alloy one fitted) If not they will be able to tell you exactly what needs to be done.
Hi Christian, as Marc says when really hammering it on track the intake temps go out making it worse, ECU panicks and over protects the engine and the charge cooler is from Pro Alloy. The VXT one does not fit so a new one was designed by Chris (Randy variety). I had already ditched the spotlights and fitted grills in their place so two rads were fitted, one either side.
The harness bar was from Sinclaires (I mean Essex Autosport).
I hear you have had Nitrons fitted, you like?
Hi Christian, as Marc says when really hammering it on track the intake temps go out making it worse, ECU panicks and over protects the engine and the charge cooler is from Pro Alloy. The VXT one does not fit so a new one was designed by Chris (Randy variety). I had already ditched the spotlights and fitted grills in their place so two rads were fitted, one either side.
The harness bar was from Sinclaires (I mean Essex Autosport).
I hear you have had Nitrons fitted, you like?
Hi Lisa
thanks for getting back to me, makes sense what you say.
Does the chargecooler live down the front? Also does the harness bar clear the seats and the speakers? I am starting to do quite a lot of track days so a harness bar is starting to become a must.
I had the Nitrons fitted whilst running Toyo T1R and instantly the car felt much better, much more controllable and no big problem on ride. I went one step softer on the rear springs and I think this is the way to go for balance otherwise the car will be too much on the nose, Randy will know the setting Overall the setup is a little harsher but not so crashy so overall not bad. I then got a set of worn A048s on the car and the ride was if anything better still. I think the A048s have more damping than the T1R and the car felt a lot more together. Did Brands Hatch GP like this but in the high speed the car was a bit on the nose. Got a new set of A048 on the back and the car felt great at Mallory this weekend, especially in T1 which is epic. Generally really nice ballance around the circuit and very quick compared with the 7s and VX. One thing that was very clear at Brands and Mallory is how good the AP 4 pots are. The car was much better than anything else at both circuit under braking, and that includes Elise Trophy cars and the Exiges.
Enjoy the picture, I did.
Europa rocks
Christian
thanks for getting back to me, makes sense what you say.
Does the chargecooler live down the front? Also does the harness bar clear the seats and the speakers? I am starting to do quite a lot of track days so a harness bar is starting to become a must.
I had the Nitrons fitted whilst running Toyo T1R and instantly the car felt much better, much more controllable and no big problem on ride. I went one step softer on the rear springs and I think this is the way to go for balance otherwise the car will be too much on the nose, Randy will know the setting Overall the setup is a little harsher but not so crashy so overall not bad. I then got a set of worn A048s on the car and the ride was if anything better still. I think the A048s have more damping than the T1R and the car felt a lot more together. Did Brands Hatch GP like this but in the high speed the car was a bit on the nose. Got a new set of A048 on the back and the car felt great at Mallory this weekend, especially in T1 which is epic. Generally really nice ballance around the circuit and very quick compared with the 7s and VX. One thing that was very clear at Brands and Mallory is how good the AP 4 pots are. The car was much better than anything else at both circuit under braking, and that includes Elise Trophy cars and the Exiges.
Enjoy the picture, I did.
Europa rocks
Christian
Seems some of you folk really do like the Europa then! I am still looking for one but i want one that has had a loving owner and the thing is not rusty before i get it.... As said, great looking car! On the power issue,is it so difficult to get the intake cool enough for a good bit of boost? What about ditching the ecu in favour of the Astra GSI system? Loads of software for good even power delivery...That car would be so good with the 300bhp and 300ft lbs that set up can turn out!
Anyone thought about fitting a second intercooler on the n/s and splitting the boost hose? I am sure the intake etc could be moved somewhere else?
Anyone thought about fitting a second intercooler on the n/s and splitting the boost hose? I am sure the intake etc could be moved somewhere else?
Hi Christian,
That is a great pic!!
The harness bar clears the seat and speakers.
The rads are housed in either arch behind where the spots are originally and the unit in the os air intake.
Do you know what spring rates you are running?
I must admit I have been thinking about the AP brakes, Dan rates them as well. Being a heavier car I guess they have more of an effect. Hmm, feeling left out now.
I have run Nitrons with AO48's since I bought the car so have been spoilt. Although I've driven on standard suspension / wheels. I have driven on The T1Rs but found the softer sidewall to give tyre squirm under firm braking and quick changes in direction, good in the wet. AO39s were great but expensive. Currently on R1Rs for general use, good all rounder, great in the wet.
Glad to hear you are enjoying the trackdays and keeping the Europa flag flying!
Movano, ECU, not much to report yet but hopefully a car will be with an ECU guru in the next few weeks.
TDI pulled out of doing the Solarus, I had a few mods done ready to be the guinea pig (first road car to have one fitted) to increase the power and improve the delivery, then that was it they just decided not to persue it. Luckily the charge cooler improved it.
Not really worth mentioning until there is hard proof it can be done. But there are two companies persuing this. Believe me when it is proven it will be posted.
Also a cheaper/better option to program the original ECU in terms of the experience already out there with VX turbos.
Lisa
The Solaris is still an option, just an expensive one. The only issue we have is the inability to get hold of the Bosche ECU plugs without ordering them in the thousands and without the plugs we can't do a 'plug and play' adaptor loom so each car will need hard wiring. This is massively frustrating as we have done so much leg work, to the point of building our own DBW controller and now we are on the verge of getting the excellent TC running.
The stock Bosche ECU is certainly good but so far people have only been able to get limited access to it so can't remap properly. It seems the same is true, to some degree, of the VX ECU and I'm not 100% that there are people in the UK that have a proper handle on it. Unfortunately the quality in much of the Vauxhall tuning market is quite low. I'm still exploring the stock ECU options and hopefully will be doing some experimentation fairly soon.
The stock Bosche ECU is certainly good but so far people have only been able to get limited access to it so can't remap properly. It seems the same is true, to some degree, of the VX ECU and I'm not 100% that there are people in the UK that have a proper handle on it. Unfortunately the quality in much of the Vauxhall tuning market is quite low. I'm still exploring the stock ECU options and hopefully will be doing some experimentation fairly soon.
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