Elise S1 vx VX220
Discussion
(This is a long post, if you don't want the explaination and thinking of me, skip to the last part, starting with the bold sentence!)
Hi all,
I am planning to buy a car. At first, I was quite convinced that I would go for an Elise S1. The reason was quite simple: it's the most affordable sportcar out there.
With affordable I mean the initial buying price, servicing, gas, insurrance, taxes.
The dream was to convert it over time to a CF Exige with a Honda-engine. However, I'm starting to realise that that dream is a bit unrealistic, since I'm still studying. The money would probably also be better saved for something like an Ultima GTR.
The main reason for the conversion to an Exige were the looks. The Elise S1 reminds me of the first generation MX-5: it is a cute, little sportscar. And IMO a bit girly. The Exige on the other hand looks a lot more agressive. A hardtop, the small lotus-spoiler and maybe the front shell would improve things a lot.
Now, since the huge performance-upgrades are out of the question for the next few years, I'm starting to doubt. I've began to look into the VX220(or Opel Speedster, like it is called here).
I prefer the looks of the Speedster (a lot over the standard Elise S1). The engine seems to be easier to tune, and seems to be more reliable, and there is the huge dealer network. Also, the prices seem to be about 1000gbp lower, when I look at the classifieds here.
The huge downside is the added weight(according to wikipedia it's about 100kg heavier than an S1), the somewhat softer character(handling, electronics, but also the not as high revving engine), the probably higher insurrance (120 vs 150 hp, both classified as sportscars. They don't look at the brand or exact type for the basic insurrance here). Also, I can't seem to find any kit for a VTEC conversion if I would decide to do that after some time(I prefer to keep my options open).
Now, I've been reading about the subject all day. I've encountered a few problems: most of the discussions are between the S2 vs the VX. I suppose that's kind of normal, since they are built on the same platform and the pricedifference was less a couple of years ago.
The other problem was that it seemed to be impossible to hold a normal discussion. Users praised their car(which is kind of normal), but they used arguments like the badge or "chicks like it better" etc. To be honest: I couldn't care less about the badge/brand. I want the most/best for my money. As said before, I even prefer the looks of the VX, so I would like it if the looks and badge are kept out of this discussion.
Now, some questions to address my main concerns:
-where comes all the extra weight from the VX? I know the engine and the enginemount(?) weighs more, but if you'd put a K20 in both of them, where is the difference?
-how hard and how expensive is it to get rid of the extra difference(weight+"softness")(I'm thinking of the electric windows, airbag, servo(that seems to have to do something with the brakes, and not with the steering? Has the VX powersteering?), ABS, etc.
-what are the differences between the S2 and the VX, apart from the body, the enginemount, the engine, and the wheels? Do they use different brakes(I'm quite sure they don't), different springs/shockabsorbers, or other handling-related things? Are these parts interchangeable(could I use upgraded Elise S2 parts on a VX?)
-how about the tune-ability of the standard engine? How far can you take both(S1 and VX) with a couple of grand?
-is there a Honda K20(K24, or even better: a K20-24 hybrid!) kit for the VX IF I would want to upgrade after all?
-how much are the bodyparts to convert an S1 Elise to an S1 Exige, with "normal" parts and with full carbon-fibre parts?
-if I'm forgetting something, please remind me!
And a reminder: I don't care about the brand. I'm looking for a lot of fun for a good price, and that is daily useable(as in: I shouldn't get soaked when I drive it
). Please don't bash eachother('s cars), this is a serious question. I am very interested in both cars, and I hope I can join the community soon 
Hi all,
I am planning to buy a car. At first, I was quite convinced that I would go for an Elise S1. The reason was quite simple: it's the most affordable sportcar out there.
With affordable I mean the initial buying price, servicing, gas, insurrance, taxes.
The dream was to convert it over time to a CF Exige with a Honda-engine. However, I'm starting to realise that that dream is a bit unrealistic, since I'm still studying. The money would probably also be better saved for something like an Ultima GTR.
The main reason for the conversion to an Exige were the looks. The Elise S1 reminds me of the first generation MX-5: it is a cute, little sportscar. And IMO a bit girly. The Exige on the other hand looks a lot more agressive. A hardtop, the small lotus-spoiler and maybe the front shell would improve things a lot.
Now, since the huge performance-upgrades are out of the question for the next few years, I'm starting to doubt. I've began to look into the VX220(or Opel Speedster, like it is called here).
I prefer the looks of the Speedster (a lot over the standard Elise S1). The engine seems to be easier to tune, and seems to be more reliable, and there is the huge dealer network. Also, the prices seem to be about 1000gbp lower, when I look at the classifieds here.
The huge downside is the added weight(according to wikipedia it's about 100kg heavier than an S1), the somewhat softer character(handling, electronics, but also the not as high revving engine), the probably higher insurrance (120 vs 150 hp, both classified as sportscars. They don't look at the brand or exact type for the basic insurrance here). Also, I can't seem to find any kit for a VTEC conversion if I would decide to do that after some time(I prefer to keep my options open).
Now, I've been reading about the subject all day. I've encountered a few problems: most of the discussions are between the S2 vs the VX. I suppose that's kind of normal, since they are built on the same platform and the pricedifference was less a couple of years ago.
The other problem was that it seemed to be impossible to hold a normal discussion. Users praised their car(which is kind of normal), but they used arguments like the badge or "chicks like it better" etc. To be honest: I couldn't care less about the badge/brand. I want the most/best for my money. As said before, I even prefer the looks of the VX, so I would like it if the looks and badge are kept out of this discussion.
Now, some questions to address my main concerns:
-where comes all the extra weight from the VX? I know the engine and the enginemount(?) weighs more, but if you'd put a K20 in both of them, where is the difference?
-how hard and how expensive is it to get rid of the extra difference(weight+"softness")(I'm thinking of the electric windows, airbag, servo(that seems to have to do something with the brakes, and not with the steering? Has the VX powersteering?), ABS, etc.
-what are the differences between the S2 and the VX, apart from the body, the enginemount, the engine, and the wheels? Do they use different brakes(I'm quite sure they don't), different springs/shockabsorbers, or other handling-related things? Are these parts interchangeable(could I use upgraded Elise S2 parts on a VX?)
-how about the tune-ability of the standard engine? How far can you take both(S1 and VX) with a couple of grand?
-is there a Honda K20(K24, or even better: a K20-24 hybrid!) kit for the VX IF I would want to upgrade after all?
-how much are the bodyparts to convert an S1 Elise to an S1 Exige, with "normal" parts and with full carbon-fibre parts?
-if I'm forgetting something, please remind me!
And a reminder: I don't care about the brand. I'm looking for a lot of fun for a good price, and that is daily useable(as in: I shouldn't get soaked when I drive it
). Please don't bash eachother('s cars), this is a serious question. I am very interested in both cars, and I hope I can join the community soon I believe a large amount of the extra weight of the VX220 comes from the clams, which you can't easily do much about.
You can buy an "Exige kit" from eliseparts for 3 grand plus VAT: http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/14/88/moto...
You can buy an "Exige kit" from eliseparts for 3 grand plus VAT: http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/14/88/moto...
I'd suggest driving them both before worrying too much about the extra weight.
I owned a VX220 for nearly 4 years, and never felt it was soft or heavy, even on track.
If you really want to drop weight from a VX, best bet is to replace wheels, seats, get rid of sound deadening, replace boot/bonnet with carbon fibre versions.
As for the engine not revving as high, yes that's true, but for me the additional torque of the VX more than made up for that. IMO the VX engine was the better engine more of the time, and with a freer flowing exhaust (100 cell cat), cold feed carbon induction kit and remap it was plenty quick enough, sounded a bit more exotic and had excellent throttle response.
And for me insurance was a lot cheaper on the VX.
I owned a VX220 for nearly 4 years, and never felt it was soft or heavy, even on track.
If you really want to drop weight from a VX, best bet is to replace wheels, seats, get rid of sound deadening, replace boot/bonnet with carbon fibre versions.
As for the engine not revving as high, yes that's true, but for me the additional torque of the VX more than made up for that. IMO the VX engine was the better engine more of the time, and with a freer flowing exhaust (100 cell cat), cold feed carbon induction kit and remap it was plenty quick enough, sounded a bit more exotic and had excellent throttle response.
And for me insurance was a lot cheaper on the VX.
Edited by JimCross on Monday 29th March 09:35
-where comes all the extra weight from the VX? I know the engine and the enginemount(?) weighs more, but if you'd put a K20 in both of them, where is the difference?
Engine was heavier, body was heavier, was more interior luxury and sound proofing for NVH
-how hard and how expensive is it to get rid of the extra difference(weight+"softness")(I'm thinking of the electric windows, airbag, servo(that seems to have to do something with the brakes, and not with the steering? Has the VX powersteering?), ABS, etc.
No powersteering - doesn't need it..... insurance companies here would go mad if you took off the ABS. Not that easy to do either as it's all linked in with the ECU
-what are the differences between the S2 and the VX, apart from the body, the enginemount, the engine, and the wheels? Do they use different brakes(I'm quite sure they don't), different springs/shockabsorbers, or other handling-related things? Are these parts interchangeable(could I use upgraded Elise S2 parts on a VX?)
Toyota Exige suspension parts were used on the VXR based around the Speedster Turbo
-how about the tune-ability of the standard engine? How far can you take both(S1 and VX) with a couple of grand?
In the UK with all the honda conversions going on you have a mssive choice of cheap bits. £2k could see you with someone elses 190-200bhp engine !
L850 engine and £2k budget gets you 20bhp
http://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/index.php?act=view...
-is there a Honda K20(K24, or even better: a K20-24 hybrid!) kit for the VX IF I would want to upgrade after all?
No - some work on a toyota Elise based honda conversion which may prove useful....
-how much are the bodyparts to convert an S1 Elise to an S1 Exige, with "normal" parts and with full carbon-fibre parts?
Yes....
http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/14/88/moto...
Forget CF - stupid expensive and doesn't save enough weight most is cheapy stuff that's never seen an autoclave
If you start talking about the turbo then you have a quick car which is easy to make quicker - look up the VXR version. Even heavier with the iron block though....
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/3890...
You seem to only be talking about the VX220 turbo.
The 2.2 n/a is 830kg so 40kg lighter than the turbo and has the benefit that it can be supercharged. If doing the conversion yourself for as little as £1200, for a basic 210bhp setup.
Courtney do drive in drive out supercharger conversions ranging from £3000 to £5000, 210bhp to 260bhp.
Elise parts Exige kit £3K, £5K Courteney 260bhp Supercharger, £8K 2.2n/a VX220 = looks and performance of Exige 260..
The 2.2 n/a is 830kg so 40kg lighter than the turbo and has the benefit that it can be supercharged. If doing the conversion yourself for as little as £1200, for a basic 210bhp setup.
Courtney do drive in drive out supercharger conversions ranging from £3000 to £5000, 210bhp to 260bhp.
Elise parts Exige kit £3K, £5K Courteney 260bhp Supercharger, £8K 2.2n/a VX220 = looks and performance of Exige 260..
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Monday 29th March 10:40
Lawrence5 said:
-where comes all the extra weight from the VX? I know the engine and the enginemount(?) weighs more, but if you'd put a K20 in both of them, where is the difference?
Engine was heavier, body was heavier, was more interior luxury and sound proofing for NVH
-how hard and how expensive is it to get rid of the extra difference(weight+"softness")(I'm thinking of the electric windows, airbag, servo(that seems to have to do something with the brakes, and not with the steering? Has the VX powersteering?), ABS, etc.
No powersteering - doesn't need it..... insurance companies here would go mad if you took off the ABS. Not that easy to do either as it's all linked in with the ECU
-what are the differences between the S2 and the VX, apart from the body, the enginemount, the engine, and the wheels? Do they use different brakes(I'm quite sure they don't), different springs/shockabsorbers, or other handling-related things? Are these parts interchangeable(could I use upgraded Elise S2 parts on a VX?)
Toyota Exige suspension parts were used on the VXR based around the Speedster Turbo
-how about the tune-ability of the standard engine? How far can you take both(S1 and VX) with a couple of grand?
In the UK with all the honda conversions going on you have a mssive choice of cheap bits. £2k could see you with someone elses 190-200bhp engine !
L850 engine and £2k budget gets you 20bhp
http://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/index.php?act=view...
-is there a Honda K20(K24, or even better: a K20-24 hybrid!) kit for the VX IF I would want to upgrade after all?
No - some work on a toyota Elise based honda conversion which may prove useful....
-how much are the bodyparts to convert an S1 Elise to an S1 Exige, with "normal" parts and with full carbon-fibre parts?
Yes....
http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/14/88/moto...
Forget CF - stupid expensive and doesn't save enough weight most is cheapy stuff that's never seen an autoclave
If you start talking about the turbo then you have a quick car which is easy to make quicker - look up the VXR version. Even heavier with the iron block though....
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/3890...
Thanks for the info already, chaps!Engine was heavier, body was heavier, was more interior luxury and sound proofing for NVH
-how hard and how expensive is it to get rid of the extra difference(weight+"softness")(I'm thinking of the electric windows, airbag, servo(that seems to have to do something with the brakes, and not with the steering? Has the VX powersteering?), ABS, etc.
No powersteering - doesn't need it..... insurance companies here would go mad if you took off the ABS. Not that easy to do either as it's all linked in with the ECU
-what are the differences between the S2 and the VX, apart from the body, the enginemount, the engine, and the wheels? Do they use different brakes(I'm quite sure they don't), different springs/shockabsorbers, or other handling-related things? Are these parts interchangeable(could I use upgraded Elise S2 parts on a VX?)
Toyota Exige suspension parts were used on the VXR based around the Speedster Turbo
-how about the tune-ability of the standard engine? How far can you take both(S1 and VX) with a couple of grand?
In the UK with all the honda conversions going on you have a mssive choice of cheap bits. £2k could see you with someone elses 190-200bhp engine !
L850 engine and £2k budget gets you 20bhp
http://www.courtenaysport.co.uk/index.php?act=view...
-is there a Honda K20(K24, or even better: a K20-24 hybrid!) kit for the VX IF I would want to upgrade after all?
No - some work on a toyota Elise based honda conversion which may prove useful....
-how much are the bodyparts to convert an S1 Elise to an S1 Exige, with "normal" parts and with full carbon-fibre parts?
Yes....
http://www.eliseparts.com/products/show/14/88/moto...
Forget CF - stupid expensive and doesn't save enough weight most is cheapy stuff that's never seen an autoclave
If you start talking about the turbo then you have a quick car which is easy to make quicker - look up the VXR version. Even heavier with the iron block though....
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/3890...
A quick reaction: the VXR is -at least for the next few years- out of the question. It is just too powerful to get insured, and well yes, it just weighs too much imo.
The CF seems to be a bit useless indeed, at least for me. Most of the cheaper CF parts weigh more than stock, and the real weightsaving CF will get too expensive for the advantage. That money might be better used for another car, imo.
BTW, I did find some clips of K20 VX's, but I couldn't find anything about the conversion itself(what did they use, how much did it cost). It probably isn't worth it.
IF I had that much money to throw at it, it might be smarter to sell the VX(if I had one of course
), and buy a S1, buy the exige bodykit(shouldn't be too much of a problem if I had the money for a vtec swap, I guess) and convert it.For the insurance: Here(Belgium) they only look to the power, and if the car is considered a sportscar, AFAIK. An S1 Elise wouldn't be more expensive than a first gen MX-5 to insure as far as I am aware.
Another thought about the vtec swap: it might not even be possible at all. Engine tuning is forbidden in Belgium, and engine swaps are too. I don't know if they really check the engine bay and if you could get away with it. But this is just to point out that swapping won't happen any time soon(
), so I'm "stuck" with the original powerplant.BTW, I found a VXT/R that was converted to an Exige on a Dutch forum, so a lot is possible and must be the same. For the people who are interested: http://www.speedsterclub.nl/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t...
@JimCross: I'm a huge sucker for lightweight(both for performance reasons as for financial reasons). I love lotus's philosophy, but the looks, price and tunability of the vx seems to be better. With the standard engine, that is.
EDIT: @Herman: the SC is indeed one of the main things I was thinking about for the VX ^^. 1200gbp
does seem very cheap, however?
Edited by Terror Factor on Monday 29th March 10:54
I very nearly bought a VX turbo..........until I drove an S1 Elise.
Obviously the VXT was faster in a straight line but the S1 Elise felt a far sharper car.
So, I bought an S1 and to make it faster (for track use) I worked on the suspension and brakes. I never touched the engine (although I did fit a close ratio gearboxx from a 111S) but on track my car could harass, harry and embarrass more powerful Eliges.
Speed doesn't just come from bhp.
Obviously the VXT was faster in a straight line but the S1 Elise felt a far sharper car.
So, I bought an S1 and to make it faster (for track use) I worked on the suspension and brakes. I never touched the engine (although I did fit a close ratio gearboxx from a 111S) but on track my car could harass, harry and embarrass more powerful Eliges.
Speed doesn't just come from bhp.
Terror Factor said:
[EDIT: @Herman: the SC is indeed one of the main things I was thinking about for the VX ^^. 1200gbp
does seem very cheap, however?
see www.vx200.org.ukdoes seem very cheap, however?
Edited by Terror Factor on Monday 29th March 10:54
There was a big thread about it, about 8 or 9 members did the conversion themselves.
TIPPER said:
I very nearly bought a VX turbo..........until I drove an S1 Elise.
Obviously the VXT was faster in a straight line but the S1 Elise felt a far sharper car.
So, I bought an S1 and to make it faster (for track use) I worked on the suspension and brakes. I never touched the engine (although I did fit a close ratio gearboxx from a 111S) but on track my car could harass, harry and embarrass more powerful Eliges.
Speed doesn't just come from bhp.
Oh thank god - some sence!Obviously the VXT was faster in a straight line but the S1 Elise felt a far sharper car.
So, I bought an S1 and to make it faster (for track use) I worked on the suspension and brakes. I never touched the engine (although I did fit a close ratio gearboxx from a 111S) but on track my car could harass, harry and embarrass more powerful Eliges.
Speed doesn't just come from bhp.
Herman Toothrot said:
Terror Factor said:
[EDIT: @Herman: the SC is indeed one of the main things I was thinking about for the VX ^^. 1200gbp
does seem very cheap, however?
see www.vx200.org.ukdoes seem very cheap, however?
Edited by Terror Factor on Monday 29th March 10:54
There was a big thread about it, about 8 or 9 members did the conversion themselves.
@Gooby and TIPPER: I know, otherwise I wouldn't think of buying an Elise/VX, and I wouldn't ask how to make the VX lighter, but I like both kinds of fast.
The car will mainly be used as a streetcar btw("spirited" driving though), but I'd love to do an occasional trackday. Trackdays here aren't as popular as in the UK tho'
TIPPER said:
To be honest you're better off getting a decent test drive in both cars and deciding for yourself - its you that's going to be driving it and its your money!
Try and drive a few of each too - you'll learn the differences between a good'un and a bad'un.
You have a point there, that's probably the best way to decide. Try and drive a few of each too - you'll learn the differences between a good'un and a bad'un.
However, there are still some questions that I can't solve by getting a testdrive:P
True, Lotus and Speester/VX communities aren't as big as they are in the UK. You guys really have a great country when it comes down to motoring!
A turbo is really not an option I'm afraid. The prices are a lot higher, and I probably wouldn't be able to get it insured. I'm only 21, and I'm afraid that I'll have to put the car on my parents name to be able to insure it for a reasonable price. I seriously doubt that my mother would let me put a 200hp car on her name:P 150 hp is already pushing it, I'm afraid
A turbo is really not an option I'm afraid. The prices are a lot higher, and I probably wouldn't be able to get it insured. I'm only 21, and I'm afraid that I'll have to put the car on my parents name to be able to insure it for a reasonable price. I seriously doubt that my mother would let me put a 200hp car on her name:P 150 hp is already pushing it, I'm afraid
I really like the VX and have driven a lovely SC version, albeit on a very wet Silverstone on A048 tyres and Nitrons.
I own an S1 Elise and certainly wouldn't swap out of choice. If I was again buying outright, I would look at the VX as I did when I bought my S1 but the biggest thing that would put me off is the cost of repairs. I am happy to be corrected here, but aren't items such as clams and lights almost non existant and if they are available, they are incredibly expensive? I dread to think what this means in Left hand drive too?
The S1 has plenty of 2nd hand, new OE and aftermarket parts available from specialist making it a cheap car to own and repair if necessary.
For me it would be an S1 Elise all day long if on a budget. If budget is not so important go for what you want..... which would also be an S1 in my case.
I own an S1 Elise and certainly wouldn't swap out of choice. If I was again buying outright, I would look at the VX as I did when I bought my S1 but the biggest thing that would put me off is the cost of repairs. I am happy to be corrected here, but aren't items such as clams and lights almost non existant and if they are available, they are incredibly expensive? I dread to think what this means in Left hand drive too?
The S1 has plenty of 2nd hand, new OE and aftermarket parts available from specialist making it a cheap car to own and repair if necessary.
For me it would be an S1 Elise all day long if on a budget. If budget is not so important go for what you want..... which would also be an S1 in my case.
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