Brake Disk/Pad Advise

[rico28]

I know the brake disk/pad questions have been done to death on these forums but I am wondering what to do. I have a 02 S2 Sports Tourer that I use purely on the road and I need to replace the disks/pads early this year. The disks/pads won’t change again for a while so I want to get it right. The two sets of options I am looking at are (I will also be upgrading to braided hoses at the same time):

Option 1
EBC Turbo Grove Disks
EBC Yellow Stuff pads

Option 2
EliseParts Ali Belled Disks
Mintex 1144 Pads

I had been thinking of going down the EBC route because of all the good write ups but the last mechanic I spoke to said he would never recommend EBC products so I’m now not too sure what to do. Any advice or thoughts? I don’t want to spend more than I need to but I do want to get it right (option 2 is about £250 more in parts costs).

[Herman Toothrot]

rico28 said:

I know the brake disk/pad questions have been done to death on these forums but I am wondering what to do. I have a 02 S2 Sports Tourer that I use purely on the road and I need to replace the disks/pads early this year. The disks/pads won’t change again for a while so I want to get it right. The two sets of options I am looking at are (I will also be upgrading to braided hoses at the same time):

Option 1
EBC Turbo Grove Disks
EBC Yellow Stuff pads

Option 2
EliseParts Ali Belled Disks
Mintex 1144 Pads

I had been thinking of going down the EBC route because of all the good write ups but the last mechanic I spoke to said he would never recommend EBC products so I’m now not too sure what to do. Any advice or thoughts? I don’t want to spend more than I need to but I do want to get it right (option 2 is about £250 more in parts costs).

From what I understand on a road car standard discs and mintex pads are perfect. The Elise parts discs look nice though

[griffter]

Ive got EBC discs and red stuff pads. I wasnt too sure about red stuff at first but the specialist i use recommended them. Crucially he took the time to free and adjust each caliper as necessary. Brakes are now sharp, progressive and inspiring. Had standard lotus set up before. A lot of criticism abounds about green stuff, but whatever the basis for it it doesnt seem to extend to reds.

[Stephanie Plum]

Nothing wrong with the EBC disks - for road use only alis would be a waste imo. Mintex 1144s will also do fine, you could put Pagid RS42s on as well, though could be classed as overkill again. And think twice before switching to braided hoses - if you aren't going on track you won't get any benefit from doing it at all. If you feel your brakes fade on the road, which I assume you must if thinking of braided hoses (?), then more likely you need a fluid change would be my guess.

[Scuffers]

not sure I agree with the braided hoses comment?

nothing to do with fade or the like, but you will get a much more positive pedal, which in turn, leads to a lot more confidence in the middle pedal.

EBC disks are fine for road only use, but I personally would not use their pads, Mintex 1144 or F2's would be my pad choice (for a road only car).

[Stephanie Plum]

Scuffers said:

not sure I agree with the braided hoses comment?

nothing to do with fade or the like, but you will get a much more positive pedal, which in turn, leads to a lot more confidence in the middle pedal.

Not in my experience - switched to braided hoses on my S2111S, with Mintex 1144s which I've always used, I change brake fluid regularly, and now I just have a stiff pedal with absolutely no feel. I hate it tbh, and will change them back at some point. The car doesn't go on track any more much, but the one time I took it down to Goodwood last year was the only time they felt ok, once heated up.

I listened to everyone else and went braided, wouldn't do it again. or recommend it, unless I've just been unlucky. Another experienced elise driver has also commented on how horrible they feel - and he also had an S2111S for a long time with RS42s on but no braided hoses, and the difference between the two was like night and day.

[Scuffers]

Stephanie Plum said:

Scuffers said:

not sure I agree with the braided hoses comment?

nothing to do with fade or the like, but you will get a much more positive pedal, which in turn, leads to a lot more confidence in the middle pedal.

Not in my experience - switched to braided hoses on my S2111S, with Mintex 1144s which I've always used, I change brake fluid regularly, and now I just have a stiff pedal with absolutely no feel. I hate it tbh, and will change them back at some point. The car doesn't go on track any more much, but the one time I took it down to Goodwood last year was the only time they felt ok, once heated up.

I listened to everyone else and went braided, wouldn't do it again. or recommend it, unless I've just been unlucky. Another experienced elise driver has also commented on how horrible they feel - and he also had an S2111S for a long time with RS42s on but no braided hoses, and the difference between the two was like night and day.

that makes zero sence...

braided hoses have nothing to do with fade and almost nothing to do with heat.

what they are to do with the the level of expansion of the fluid system vs. pedal pressure.

Now, on a car without a servo, this is way more apparent as the servo will mask a certain amount of sponge, however, it;s very much still there - one problem here is that the brakes are somewhat over-assisted and thus with 'better' pads (and by this I mean ones with higher a coefficient than OEM ones), this can become an issue with sensitivity (of lack of).

all that said, the idea they feel better with the sponge in the system is just crazy, I would rather feel the pads under my foot than the sponge of a flexible hose.

[cyberface]

For road use I'd take EBC reds over Mintex 1144 any day purely because of the dust situation - Mintex 1144 put out ridiculous amounts of brake dust and trash your wheels, EBC reds produce almost none.

EBC Green are borderline useless and shouldn't be fitted to any Elise. I think this is where the 'never touch EBC' meme came from in the first place - anyone who's tried EBC green pads on an unservoed Elise will know *exactly* why. However just because their road-hatchback-oriented pad doesn't work on the Lotus cars doesn't mean all their products are poor.

The Red pad is a good road pad, the Yellow is a very good VFM fast road and track pad (the Pagid RS14 is better but it's twice the price). Simon - just as a matter of interest - have you tried the entire EBC pad range recently, or are you only talking about racing applications? If all you've seen are the Green pads then that explains the 'no EBC pads' - otherwise given how different the compounds (and technologies) are in each 'colour', it seems a bit sweeping to say that they're *all* crap unless you know something about EBC factory QA procedures that we don't...

The reason the 'hot' EBC pads are considered at all for the Elise/Exige is because they have been historically cheaper than their Pagid / Performance Friction / Carbone Lorraine 'specialist' counterparts. The Yellow is produced in bulk since it's used by the UK Police Force in their pursuit cars (which are heavy, carry lots of heavy policemen and stuff, and are pedalled fast) - so for a very fast road / trackday pad, it's good value.

Unless you plan to race, or drive everywhere on the brakes, and therefore will be replacing discs on a regular basis, there's not much argument for replacing the discs on an Elise is there?

[Scuffers]

cyberface said:

Simon - just as a matter of interest - have you tried the entire EBC pad range recently, or are you only talking about racing applications?

short answer:

Yes, tried them all.
No, not only on track.

I agree the 'harder' ones are better than Greens, but it's all relative.

I actually managed to set fire to a set of yellows - yes, properly on fire to the point I had to replace all the calliper seals etc as they got burned along with the flexible's etc. (I grant you this was somewhat extreme, but that's not really the point is it?)

comparing EBC with Padgid is pointless, there are so far apart you could drive a super-tanker though the gap.

I would also suggest that the Police are hardly a good example of brake performance, you are going to be hard pushed to explore the limit's of the brakes on the public highways even if you are psychotic.

As I said above, if Mintex 1144's are not your bag, try F2's, they are somewhat higher up the hardness scale but still retain good 'feel'.

ultimately, I will always run Padgid 4-2's for a road car, but that's just me.

[cyberface]

Scuffers said:

I actually managed to set fire to a set of yellows - yes, properly on fire to the point I had to replace all the calliper seals etc as they got burned along with the flexible's etc. (I grant you this was somewhat extreme, but that's not really the point is it?)

comparing EBC with Padgid is pointless, there are so far apart you could drive a super-tanker though the gap.

I would also suggest that the Police are hardly a good example of brake performance, you are going to be hard pushed to explore the limit's of the brakes on the public highways even if you are psychotic.

As I said above, if Mintex 1144's are not your bag, try F2's, they are somewhat higher up the hardness scale but still retain good 'feel'.

ultimately, I will always run Padgid 4-2's for a road car, but that's just me.

Heh, I'd have loved to see you do that. WTF were you doing? Mentalist.

I used the Police as an example of mass production hence the low price of the Yellow pad, sorry for confusion. If the Yellow is the Police pad of choice for their heavy pursuit cars, then EBC must make them in reasonable volume, translating into lower cost for us. Part of the reason Pagid are so damn expensive is probably because of lack of volume, no?

I've avoided Pagid for two reasons - cost / performance (yes I know they're the best on track and all the LoT racers use them... apart from Chris and the Carbone Lorraines - but I'm not that good a driver), and squeal / noise. Oh yeah, and a third - they're not technically road legal, without EC stamping or some such stuff.

Then I take delivery of a nice new Exige, and find that the 'uprated brakes' package includes bloody RS14 pads. And have they squealed once? Have they buggery. Do they bite from cold. Oh yeah. So I'm now completely befuddled - does this legendary RS14 Pagid squeal only occur in 'normal' Elise calipers (mine has 4-pot AP racing ones)? Have the Lotus guys done something 'special' to stop squeal? Did Parky @ Lipscomb get the techs to do something to stop squeal?

Who knows - all I can say *now* is that I have a single-sample data point of a new Exige with Pagid RS14 black 'race' pads that don't squeal, bite better from cold than the EBC Yellow did (those would scare you from cold occasionally), and that's *cold* as in the subzero temperatures we've had recently (I've driven it in the snow)....

Whoodathunkit.

So yeah, if there's a repeatable method to make Pagid RS14s perform on road (cold bite, no squeal) like they do on my car, then now for me there's no contest and the money is worth paying (the cold bite on my new car compared to the soft cold bite of the old EBC Yellow-equipped car is worth having if the first thing you do in the morning is avoid another sleepy driver with a sharp stop).

Of course, now there's all the fuss about sintered-metal-graphite-matrix 'blind everyone with composite materials science' Carbone Lorraine pads. Once a few more people have tried these out, maybe they'll be the benchmark.

Since they're meant to be stable up to 1000˚C, perhaps they'd suit your driving style Simon, if you can set fire to both the pad and most of the braking system (WTF were you using as brake fluid to let *that* happen?)

[Scuffers]

some comments (without quoting your entire post!)


Pad squeal is a complex subject, it's more than just pads, it;s the combination of disk/calliper/pad that you have to consider.

As far as I know, all RS14's are the same material, just in different formats for each calliper, the 4 pot versions do seem much less prone to squeal, in the same way that 304mm AP disks I use with std 2 pots are much more prone to squeal.

as an example, I swapped out 2 pot's for the EP 4 pot's on a car with 304 disks etc, that used to squeal really annoyingly on RS14's, RS29's, and even RS4-2's (although less-so), but with the same RS14 pads in the 4 pot on the same disks, zero noise.

RE: setting fore to them, fluid has little to do with this, it's all about heat management between the pad and the piston, if the disk is running at 500-600C and the pad transmits this though to the piston, you have issues, the best fluid in the world is not going to help here. This is why pads like RS14's are carbon-ceramic - to limit the transfer of heat to the callipers.

BTW, Padgid are OEM suppliers to VAG, used a lot on the Audi/VW std car range....

[Mr Darcy]

I have EP discs and RS14 pads on mine with braided hoses. Apparently its total overkill for a road car. I say its bks. My brake pedal has a lot more feel to it over a std car and it gives you more confidence when braking even when the brakes are cold.

[Stephanie Plum]

Scuffers said:

Stephanie Plum said:

Scuffers said:

not sure I agree with the braided hoses comment?

nothing to do with fade or the like, but you will get a much more positive pedal, which in turn, leads to a lot more confidence in the middle pedal.

Not in my experience - switched to braided hoses on my S2111S, with Mintex 1144s which I've always used, I change brake fluid regularly, and now I just have a stiff pedal with absolutely no feel. I hate it tbh, and will change them back at some point. The car doesn't go on track any more much, but the one time I took it down to Goodwood last year was the only time they felt ok, once heated up.

I listened to everyone else and went braided, wouldn't do it again. or recommend it, unless I've just been unlucky. Another experienced elise driver has also commented on how horrible they feel - and he also had an S2111S for a long time with RS42s on but no braided hoses, and the difference between the two was like night and day.

that makes zero sence...

braided hoses have nothing to do with fade and almost nothing to do with heat.

what they are to do with the the level of expansion of the fluid system vs. pedal pressure.

Now, on a car without a servo, this is way more apparent as the servo will mask a certain amount of sponge, however, it;s very much still there - one problem here is that the brakes are somewhat over-assisted and thus with 'better' pads (and by this I mean ones with higher a coefficient than OEM ones), this can become an issue with sensitivity (of lack of).

all that said, the idea they feel better with the sponge in the system is just crazy, I would rather feel the pads under my foot than the sponge of a flexible hose.

OK - I think I understand what you're saying - bear in mind I'm a technical numpty, and can only say what I feel. Before I switched to braided hoses, I felt that I could feel more of what the brakes were telling me - now, I just feel nothing. I still stop - just sometimes I don't feel I will - which is the bit I hate. Also, I thought the hotter your brakes get on track, the more likely you are to get fade? Isn't that a case of the fluid over heating or am I being thick? (which I suspect is more likely......)

[Scuffers]

Stephanie Plum said:

OK - I think I understand what you're saying - bear in mind I'm a technical numpty, and can only say what I feel. Before I switched to braided hoses, I felt that I could feel more of what the brakes were telling me - now, I just feel nothing. I still stop - just sometimes I don't feel I will - which is the bit I hate. Also, I thought the hotter your brakes get on track, the more likely you are to get fade? Isn't that a case of the fluid over heating or am I being thick? (which I suspect is more likely......)

Brake fade is the result of the pad to disk coefficient of friction falling, usually because you have exceeded the pads operating temp range (disks have a lot to do with this as they ultimately are the heat-shedding part of the system).

fluid only comes into it if you boil it (or the water contaminating it), if you ever experience this, you will know about it, the pedal will just go to the floor and you will need fresh underwear (to be fair, it's extremity unlikely 99.99% of people will ever experience this and when they do, it's only ever going to be half the system that you loose - usually the front)

[Stephanie Plum]

Scuffers said:

Brake fade is the result of the pad to disk coefficient of friction falling, usually because you have exceeded the pads operating temp range (disks have a lot to do with this as they ultimately are the heat-shedding part of the system).

fluid only comes into it if you boil it (or the water contaminating it), if you ever experience this, you will know about it, the pedal will just go to the floor and you will need fresh underwear (to be fair, it's extremity unlikely 99.99% of people will ever experience this and when they do, it's only ever going to be half the system that you loose - usually the front)

That helps - thanks. I suspect some of my issue is I go from servo and abs assisted scooby, to servo and abs assisted 2-11 to non servo and non abs assisted elise. I guess it's natural the latter will feel pretty dead. Maybe I'm being a girl, but I don't like my current elise brake set up - I need to find a way of getting what I consider to be "some feel" back. OP - sorry for hijack!

[Scuffers]

Stephanie Plum said:

That helps - thanks. I suspect some of my issue is I go from servo and abs assisted scooby, to servo and abs assisted 2-11 to non servo and non abs assisted elise. I guess it's natural the latter will feel pretty dead. Maybe I'm being a girl, but I don't like my current elise brake set up - I need to find a way of getting what I consider to be "some feel" back. OP - sorry for hijack!

non-servo feel is all down to the pad/disk combo really...

what are you running in what?

[rico28]

Ok, should have known better than to ask about brakes

Still not 100% sure what to go with though? While I drive the Elise fairly briskly at times it isn’t going to be really hammered all that much. If there is a chance the Mintex pads could create more than a desirable amount of dust that would put me off so I am currently leaning in the EBC direction. I assume this EBC set up would still be better than just going for OEM parts? I like the idea of this black coating that prevents uncontacted areas rusting, my current OEM disks looks pretty badly rusted all over.

As for braided hoses, there seem to be more for than against and since the rubber ones are bound to perish eventually and I am never going to sell the car I think it make sense to go for them now while the disks/pads are being done.

[cyberface]

rico28 said:

Ok, should have known better than to ask about brakes

Still not 100% sure what to go with though? While I drive the Elise fairly briskly at times it isn’t going to be really hammered all that much. If there is a chance the Mintex pads could create more than a desirable amount of dust that would put me off so I am currently leaning in the EBC direction. I assume this EBC set up would still be better than just going for OEM parts? I like the idea of this black coating that prevents uncontacted areas rusting, my current OEM disks looks pretty badly rusted all over.

As for braided hoses, there seem to be more for than against and since the rubber ones are bound to perish eventually and I am never going to sell the car I think it make sense to go for them now while the disks/pads are being done.

The black paint to avoid unswept area corrosion is a good idea, and if you're not going to drive like Simon or do lots of trackdays then any pad other than EBC Green Duff will suffice. You can't really go wrong with EBC disks and Red pads because of very low dust, it's a better pad than OEM (I used it on my supercharged Porker 993 at Brands, and they didn't fade even when I had an instructor in the car and we were chasing down RSes).

However Simon is right at the end of the day. They're not the *best* pad out there, and you'll get better performance overall with Pagid.

ETA - if you're going to the bother of changing the hoses... may as well put in SRF-type fluid too while you're at it. You shouldn't ever need the higher temperature resistance of the racing fluid but as a 'just in case' scenario (as Simon says - boiling brake fluid scares the st out of you) it's probably worth it. The Castrol stuff is expensive, mind you - but why have uprated brake discs, pads and hoses and use boggo brake fluid?

Edited by cyberface on Monday 4th January 15:10

[Herman Toothrot]

Scuffers said:

I actually managed to set fire to a set of yellows

I've done that on my MX5, the yellow paint bubbled and smoked lots on the 1st session and the 2nd the pad started falling apart on the edges, getting caught and scraping/ grinding / screeching. Horrible things! Do Axxis do Elise pads? Axxis Ultimates are great on the MX5.

[Scuffers]

cyberface said:

rico28 said:

Ok, should have known better than to ask about brakes

Still not 100% sure what to go with though? While I drive the Elise fairly briskly at times it isn’t going to be really hammered all that much. If there is a chance the Mintex pads could create more than a desirable amount of dust that would put me off so I am currently leaning in the EBC direction. I assume this EBC set up would still be better than just going for OEM parts? I like the idea of this black coating that prevents uncontacted areas rusting, my current OEM disks looks pretty badly rusted all over.

As for braided hoses, there seem to be more for than against and since the rubber ones are bound to perish eventually and I am never going to sell the car I think it make sense to go for them now while the disks/pads are being done.

The black paint to avoid unswept area corrosion is a good idea, and if you're not going to drive like Simon or do lots of trackdays then any pad other than EBC Green Duff will suffice. You can't really go wrong with EBC disks and Red pads because of very low dust, it's a better pad than OEM (I used it on my supercharged Porker 993 at Brands, and they didn't fade even when I had an instructor in the car and we were chasing down RSes).

However Simon is right at the end of the day. They're not the *best* pad out there, and you'll get better performance overall with Pagid.

ETA - if you're going to the bother of changing the hoses... may as well put in SRF-type fluid too while you're at it. You shouldn't ever need the higher temperature resistance of the racing fluid but as a 'just in case' scenario (as Simon says - boiling brake fluid scares the st out of you) it's probably worth it. The Castrol stuff is expensive, mind you - but why have uprated brake discs, pads and hoses and use boggo brake fluid?

personally, I think the black coating is a bit pointless, I really can;t see it standing up to the sort of temps the disc's will run at.

I also think the dust argument is massively over-blown, all pads will have brake dust comming from them, the softer the pad, the more dust, simple as that, only thing you have to watch is some materials are more aggressive against ali than others.

Lastly, great as SRF is, it's totally pointless in a road car (and I would argue anything outside of serious M-sport), and decent dot4 or 5.1 massively exceeds the spec's required for the application.

I have only ever seen one case of boiled fluid on an Elise, and that was a SC Honda, on track, with a driver who loves to left-foot brake all the time.