Reviewing Elise for PH and US: bad brakes?
Discussion
I've just had a Lotus Elise for two days, courtesy of Lotus' PR Department. The yellow devil was certainly an eye-opener: like nothing I've ever driven on a public road. Stand by for my review and photos. Meanwhile...
The car's brakes were really quite bad. There was very little feel, and you had to give them a bloody great big shove to get them to work. Scary. But is it typical? Even though the tyres were fresh, I reckon this 7000 miler had been thrashed to an inch of its life. Do well-maintained stock Elise's have good brakes?
And while we're at it, what about the suspension? The test car crashed into potholes so badly I felt sure we were going to leave a bit or two behind. Again, is this typical?
I want to write a fair review. These are minor faults compared to the overall delight of driving an Elise. Any insight from owners who know the score is most appreciated.
The car's brakes were really quite bad. There was very little feel, and you had to give them a bloody great big shove to get them to work. Scary. But is it typical? Even though the tyres were fresh, I reckon this 7000 miler had been thrashed to an inch of its life. Do well-maintained stock Elise's have good brakes?
And while we're at it, what about the suspension? The test car crashed into potholes so badly I felt sure we were going to leave a bit or two behind. Again, is this typical?
I want to write a fair review. These are minor faults compared to the overall delight of driving an Elise. Any insight from owners who know the score is most appreciated.
I imagine that being the official PR car it would, as you said, have been completely trounced by all the other test drives it has had.
Firstly the brakes, as it doesn't have a servo it does require that little bit more effort than a servo assisted car. However, the brake pedal shouldn't require the super human effort that you experienced! I've driven both S1 and S2 and, apart from my own '97 Elise having the MMC discs and behaving slightly differently, there should be loads of 'feel' through the pedal. But if you do push the brake pedal hard the car will respond quickly and slow down VERY rapidly.
The ride from the Elise is hard, but should be compliant with all but the biggest of holes and cracks in the road. It seems to cope with the undulations better at speed, and if you do hit something big, it should not jar you out of the seat!
Having been on the Lotus training course up at Hethel I have had an opportunity to drive their own 'well used' Elises. The cars, as some of the staff up there said, were probably the best loved Elises in the country since they had a service every week! The cars were thrashed, but were well looked after and were a true delight to drive.
So overall I'm a bit surprised that Lotus would let you drive a car in such bad condition. Considering you Journalists are the guys that influence the punters into putting the cash up for the cars in the first place. It seems shocking that Lotus can allow you to make a decision on a car that has taken so much abuse.
I hope the article goes well and perhaps you can give some stick to guys at Lotus for letting you drive such a shoddy example in the first place!
Firstly the brakes, as it doesn't have a servo it does require that little bit more effort than a servo assisted car. However, the brake pedal shouldn't require the super human effort that you experienced! I've driven both S1 and S2 and, apart from my own '97 Elise having the MMC discs and behaving slightly differently, there should be loads of 'feel' through the pedal. But if you do push the brake pedal hard the car will respond quickly and slow down VERY rapidly.
The ride from the Elise is hard, but should be compliant with all but the biggest of holes and cracks in the road. It seems to cope with the undulations better at speed, and if you do hit something big, it should not jar you out of the seat!
Having been on the Lotus training course up at Hethel I have had an opportunity to drive their own 'well used' Elises. The cars, as some of the staff up there said, were probably the best loved Elises in the country since they had a service every week! The cars were thrashed, but were well looked after and were a true delight to drive.
So overall I'm a bit surprised that Lotus would let you drive a car in such bad condition. Considering you Journalists are the guys that influence the punters into putting the cash up for the cars in the first place. It seems shocking that Lotus can allow you to make a decision on a car that has taken so much abuse.
I hope the article goes well and perhaps you can give some stick to guys at Lotus for letting you drive such a shoddy example in the first place!
Mine crashes and bangs really badly over potholes. OK it is an R reg and has 30K on the clock including track miles, but it's always been noisy on poor poor road surfaces, especially towards the end of a run.
I remember reading a fair review of the strengths and weaknesses of the suspension in Autocar(?) just after I got it - from what I recall, essentially a smooth ride (with radial tyres) requires lots of front-to-back compliance in the suspension bushes; fine with Macpherson strut suspension but with double wishbone this would cause problems with camber control and therefore loss of stability under cornering and especially braking.
The M100 Elan had a nifty cake-and-eat-it setup, but the Elise was cheap and cheerful so compromises comfort for handling.
I've got MMCs so can't really comment on braking, except its the only one of my cars that I can feel the wheel lock-up point through the brake pedal.
AdrianR
>> Edited by adrianr on Monday 11th March 12:08
I remember reading a fair review of the strengths and weaknesses of the suspension in Autocar(?) just after I got it - from what I recall, essentially a smooth ride (with radial tyres) requires lots of front-to-back compliance in the suspension bushes; fine with Macpherson strut suspension but with double wishbone this would cause problems with camber control and therefore loss of stability under cornering and especially braking.
The M100 Elan had a nifty cake-and-eat-it setup, but the Elise was cheap and cheerful so compromises comfort for handling.
I've got MMCs so can't really comment on braking, except its the only one of my cars that I can feel the wheel lock-up point through the brake pedal.
AdrianR
>> Edited by adrianr on Monday 11th March 12:08
Re: brakes
I am also amazed by the brakes on my Elise albeit I have the MMC type. The feel is astounding and the power is excellent but you really have to stand on them and attack the pedal rather than just press it.
I also concur that MMC are buttock clenching in the wet and made a recent wet motorway trip an experience I never want to repeat. I also spent 30 mins thrashing around some of my favorite roads around Cheddar, Somerset and found the pedal travel did increase slightly when some serious temperatures get built up. May try some braided hoses to cure this though...
All in all... smiles aplenty!
I am also amazed by the brakes on my Elise albeit I have the MMC type. The feel is astounding and the power is excellent but you really have to stand on them and attack the pedal rather than just press it.
I also concur that MMC are buttock clenching in the wet and made a recent wet motorway trip an experience I never want to repeat. I also spent 30 mins thrashing around some of my favorite roads around Cheddar, Somerset and found the pedal travel did increase slightly when some serious temperatures get built up. May try some braided hoses to cure this though...
All in all... smiles aplenty!
So, um, it's normal that you have to stand on the brakes and the suspension goes BANG over potholes.
http://communities.msn.co.uk/autophotography/artsyshots.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=184/jpeg
>> Edited by PetrolTed (moderator) on Monday 11th March 23:36
http://communities.msn.co.uk/autophotography/artsyshots.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=184/jpeg
>> Edited by PetrolTed (moderator) on Monday 11th March 23:36
Robert
The Elise is a fantastic drivers car it sounds amazing, the handling is unsupassed and it goes and stops like nothing else, even expensive exotica doesn't have the same raw appeal! Nothing is allowed to interferre with the driver- no power steering and no brake servo to take away any 'feel'. Its an absolutely fantastic car.
OR
Its a pain to get in and out of, especially with the roof on. Even getting the roof off and on is a pain. They leak in the rain. The engine noise is intrusive, particularly when 'sitting' at about 80 on the motorway. In the search for performance everything has been removed - brake servo, power steering, air bags, carpets!
It IS a very accomplished drivers car BUT it is very compromised. In the search for performance Lotus got rid of everything that added any weight. The suspension is too hard for pootling about. But heres the thing - get behind the wheel and floor it - the noise, the sensations coming through the car as you drive down the road, nothing comes close it is truly "better than sex" (well almost )
Rob you either love it or hate it and I don't think there's much in between, as you can see I love mine and I wouldn't know what to have to replace it. If you hate it, let someone else write about it because you just won't get it across to your readers how amazing it is.
The Elise is a fantastic drivers car it sounds amazing, the handling is unsupassed and it goes and stops like nothing else, even expensive exotica doesn't have the same raw appeal! Nothing is allowed to interferre with the driver- no power steering and no brake servo to take away any 'feel'. Its an absolutely fantastic car.
OR
Its a pain to get in and out of, especially with the roof on. Even getting the roof off and on is a pain. They leak in the rain. The engine noise is intrusive, particularly when 'sitting' at about 80 on the motorway. In the search for performance everything has been removed - brake servo, power steering, air bags, carpets!
It IS a very accomplished drivers car BUT it is very compromised. In the search for performance Lotus got rid of everything that added any weight. The suspension is too hard for pootling about. But heres the thing - get behind the wheel and floor it - the noise, the sensations coming through the car as you drive down the road, nothing comes close it is truly "better than sex" (well almost
) Rob you either love it or hate it and I don't think there's much in between, as you can see I love mine and I wouldn't know what to have to replace it. If you hate it, let someone else write about it because you just won't get it across to your readers how amazing it is.
Chill. I loved the Elise. What driver wouldn't?[pic] ">http://communities.msn.co.uk/TheTruthAboutCars/samampmotors.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=57.jpeg/">
I just wanted to make sure that the press car was/was not representative of the breed. I can now assume that it... might have been.
Mind you, like you say, there are compromises. I will point them out: no flame-broiled reporters please!
Anyway, review due this week. Does anyone know if and when the Elise will hit US shores? Lotus is a bit cagey on this point. (I know they already import bodies for a Mazda engine in the states.)
>> Edited by robert farago on Tuesday 12th March 08:08
I just wanted to make sure that the press car was/was not representative of the breed. I can now assume that it... might have been.
Mind you, like you say, there are compromises. I will point them out: no flame-broiled reporters please!
Anyway, review due this week. Does anyone know if and when the Elise will hit US shores? Lotus is a bit cagey on this point. (I know they already import bodies for a Mazda engine in the states.)
>> Edited by robert farago on Tuesday 12th March 08:08
I've made a similar posting elsewhere on this, but ...
I changed my 1997 S1 (MMC brakes) for an S2 in November and I think the S2 brakes are awful. The MMC's could be a handful in the wet (or after a Jetwash), but they never ever caused my pulse to raise when I needed them.
The cross drilled items on the S2 raise my pulse every day in what I would call very gentle driving. They do not seem to slow the car and the pedal goes very hard. After that a further hard shove is required to stop the car. So far I've not had a moment, but every time I have to use moderate braking I wonder if the car will stop in an emergency.
I can't believe such a light car with such highly specced brakes should feel like this. Perhaps the S2 brakes are really only suitable for track use where the temperature is higher? Either that or I was far too gentle on them during running in and they are still not bedded in.
Any other S2 owners found the same?
PS - Now I think about it I drove both VVC and Sport 160 S1's and felt that the brakes on both of them were lacking in feel and stopping power compared to the MMC's ... ho, hum.
I changed my 1997 S1 (MMC brakes) for an S2 in November and I think the S2 brakes are awful. The MMC's could be a handful in the wet (or after a Jetwash), but they never ever caused my pulse to raise when I needed them.
The cross drilled items on the S2 raise my pulse every day in what I would call very gentle driving. They do not seem to slow the car and the pedal goes very hard. After that a further hard shove is required to stop the car. So far I've not had a moment, but every time I have to use moderate braking I wonder if the car will stop in an emergency.
I can't believe such a light car with such highly specced brakes should feel like this. Perhaps the S2 brakes are really only suitable for track use where the temperature is higher? Either that or I was far too gentle on them during running in and they are still not bedded in.
Any other S2 owners found the same?
PS - Now I think about it I drove both VVC and Sport 160 S1's and felt that the brakes on both of them were lacking in feel and stopping power compared to the MMC's ... ho, hum.
quote:
They do not seem to slow the car and the pedal goes very hard. After that a further hard shove is required to stop the car.
Not here. I have an S2 with X-drilled brakes (yeah I know... not good for stopping, but looks cool
). Did need to 'abuse' the brakes a bit (about 5 repeated hard 60mph - 0 brake actions right after another) but now they are great. Just make sure you use them hard and often and they keep the good 'feel'.
OK. They aren't MMC's and never will have the same feel, but they do provide some serious stopping power.
Bye, Arno.
I have an Elise of the S1 Sport 135 variety.
x-drilled discs. I too felt the car lacked a certain delicacy with the brakes. Swapping the pads to Pagid RS-14's solved this completely! I exagerate not. RS4-2's are also superb and probably more road biased - the RS-14's being more track biased.
This works on the S2 too, with or without x-drilled discs. These pads are very expensive (~£250 a full set), but it is a small price to pay for the experience.
Cheers
Chris
chrisj@absolutech.co.uk
x-drilled discs. I too felt the car lacked a certain delicacy with the brakes. Swapping the pads to Pagid RS-14's solved this completely! I exagerate not. RS4-2's are also superb and probably more road biased - the RS-14's being more track biased.
This works on the S2 too, with or without x-drilled discs. These pads are very expensive (~£250 a full set), but it is a small price to pay for the experience.
Cheers
Chris
chrisj@absolutech.co.uk
sounds like an awful thing to do but you do need to murder the brakes on an S2 a bit....mine had all the symptoms you guys described which bothered me...until my first track day with it. They are now exactly what I like... great feel, awesome stopping.
Robert....am surprised you found the suspension crashy? I have to say Im amazed...in fact incredulous, about how good the new set up is at soaking up potholes and the like (within reason of course)
Night
Robert....am surprised you found the suspension crashy? I have to say Im amazed...in fact incredulous, about how good the new set up is at soaking up potholes and the like (within reason of course
) Night
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