Elise S2 S vs Elise 111R

[sammo800m]

Hi

I'm looking at buying a used Elise and would like to know people's opinions on the performance on the S2 S model vs the 111R model. On paper the performance looks quite different however I have been told that they both very similar when driven.

Any views would be greatly appreciated.

[kambites]

They are similar below the cam changeover point - if anything the S feels a bit faster a low revs (not sure why). Once the R gets onto the high-lift cam though, they're completely different beasts.

[sammo800m]

Thanks kambites

Where does the change to the high end cam normally occur?

[kambites]

I think the standard point is about 6200rpm. You can move it by modifying the ECU programming.

[robbieduncan]

Make sure you are sure of the difference between a S2 S and a S2 111s. The S has a 120bhp (ish) Toyota engine. The 111s has a 156bhp Rover K series engine. The 111s weighs less than a S or 111R so a lot of the time will be as fast as a 111R.

[miro]

robbieduncan said:

Make sure you are sure of the difference between a S2 S and a S2 111s. The S has a 120bhp (ish) Toyota engine. The 111s has a 156bhp Rover K series engine. The 111s weighs less than a S or 111R so a lot of the time will be as fast as a 111R.

The standard Elise with the rover K series engine is 120bhp the 111S with the rover VVC engine is 154 and the elise s with the Toyota S is 134bhp. The build quality gets better the more recent you go car wise too

[miro]

oh and back to the comparason. The Elise R needs to be kept on cam (higher revs) to exploit its power. From my experiences the R feels slower than the S until you hit the cam change. For me driving on the road it just wasn't as much fun having to keep the power in that band all the time The S is a cracking car for fast road and a bit of track time With a nice robust engine and good power delivery. Just make sure you have an aftermarket Exhaust/induction so it sounds nice and you will lose a few KG due to the OEM one being monsterously heavy and liable to fall appart 2Bular or Larini on the Elise S imho (in that order)

[robbieduncan]

miro said:

robbieduncan said:

Make sure you are sure of the difference between a S2 S and a S2 111s. The S has a 120bhp (ish) Toyota engine. The 111s has a 156bhp Rover K series engine. The 111s weighs less than a S or 111R so a lot of the time will be as fast as a 111R.

The standard Elise with the rover K series engine is 120bhp the 111S with the rover VVC engine is 154 and the elise s with the Toyota S is 134bhp. The build quality gets better the more recent you go car wise too

I've got a 111s and I was sure it was 156bhp. Just checked and the sources agree with me: http://www.elises.co.uk/models/s2/111/index.html. Anyway the point of my post was mostly to ensure that the OP was aware of the difference between the 111s and the S as these two models seem to confuse a lot of people

[kambites]

Indeed. The S was basically a replacement for the 120bhp K-series - performance was very similar. The 111R wasn't quite a replacement for the 111S, but it was fairly close to it - performance is again fairly similar, at least at road legal speeds. Delivery is very different though.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 June 14:25

[AllNines]

robbieduncan said:

miro said:

robbieduncan said:

Make sure you are sure of the difference between a S2 S and a S2 111s. The S has a 120bhp (ish) Toyota engine. The 111s has a 156bhp Rover K series engine. The 111s weighs less than a S or 111R so a lot of the time will be as fast as a 111R.

The standard Elise with the rover K series engine is 120bhp the 111S with the rover VVC engine is 154 and the elise s with the Toyota S is 134bhp. The build quality gets better the more recent you go car wise too

I've got a 111s and I was sure it was 156bhp. Just checked and the sources agree with me: http://www.elises.co.uk/models/s2/111/index.html. Anyway the point of my post was mostly to ensure that the OP was aware of the difference between the 111s and the S as these two models seem to confuse a lot of people

There was also an S version of the 120bhp K-series, just to add further confusion to the pot...

[cjm]

AllNines said:

robbieduncan said:

miro said:

robbieduncan said:

Make sure you are sure of the difference between a S2 S and a S2 111s. The S has a 120bhp (ish) Toyota engine. The 111s has a 156bhp Rover K series engine. The 111s weighs less than a S or 111R so a lot of the time will be as fast as a 111R.

The standard Elise with the rover K series engine is 120bhp the 111S with the rover VVC engine is 154 and the elise s with the Toyota S is 134bhp. The build quality gets better the more recent you go car wise too

I've got a 111s and I was sure it was 156bhp. Just checked and the sources agree with me: http://www.elises.co.uk/models/s2/111/index.html. Anyway the point of my post was mostly to ensure that the OP was aware of the difference between the 111s and the S as these two models seem to confuse a lot of people

There was also an S version of the 120bhp K-series, just to add further confusion to the pot...

I have spotted a few of these for sale, and assumed they were late model 120bhp K's

[miro]

cjm said:

AllNines said:

robbieduncan said:

miro said:

robbieduncan said:

Make sure you are sure of the difference between a S2 S and a S2 111s. The S has a 120bhp (ish) Toyota engine. The 111s has a 156bhp Rover K series engine. The 111s weighs less than a S or 111R so a lot of the time will be as fast as a 111R.

The standard Elise with the rover K series engine is 120bhp the 111S with the rover VVC engine is 154 and the elise s with the Toyota S is 134bhp. The build quality gets better the more recent you go car wise too

I've got a 111s and I was sure it was 156bhp. Just checked and the sources agree with me: http://www.elises.co.uk/models/s2/111/index.html. Anyway the point of my post was mostly to ensure that the OP was aware of the difference between the 111s and the S as these two models seem to confuse a lot of people

There was also an S version of the 120bhp K-series, just to add further confusion to the pot...

I have spotted a few of these for sale, and assumed they were late model 120bhp K's

I found that the Yota cars are mostly listed as such you If youre unsure you can tell by the exhaust exit the yotas are through the diffuser the Rover are either side of the Number plate Oh and I ment 156 the 154 was a typo

[bordseye]

The performance against the stop watch of the 111R will be much better than the K series 156 bhp engine - the odd 50 kg weight difference (say 7%) is way outweighed by the 25% power gain. but the difference in every day driving is probably not noticeable. and the 111R is pretty peaky

real issue is - are you happy to risk the known unreliability of the K series. a lot of people are (or have to) because the K series cars are much cheaper. personally my days of getting out and getting under are gone so I wouldnt look at a K series

[Andy G Bmth]

How much is your budget?

As with anything it is your opinion that counts so go and test drive a few. It also depends on what you will be using it for.

IMO I was in a similar position in April and had £20k ish to spend and had my heart set on the R as it was the faster more expensive model and well within price range. However after driving them I ended up with a 2008 S as it felt faster when driven on normal roads. I found myself driving the r on the straights to maximise the powerband (which is how I drove my sl500) whereas the s flowed from corner to corner. However if I did a lot of motoway commuting I would have chosen the r

Either way they are both cracking cars and a good position to be in but buy one on your thoughts alone and not anyone elses as you may be surprised.

[Nipper09]

Have just changed (after 2 years of fun)a 2002 K series S to the 'yota 111R. Very different cars indeed!!

Loved my S but did lack a bit of power once you'd past 60, but as above flows well on the bends....However once you've got use to driving round at 6500 revs the R in unbelievable, soooo much power just delivered in one big bang! not regreting the change one bit!

[dom180]

It's just a subjective feeling as the R gets so much more manic the more you rev it. Actual figures from Evo and Autocar show that the R is in fact, decisively faster accross the rev range and in all the in-gear increments than the 'yota S.

kambites said:

They are similar below the cam changeover point - if anything the S feels a bit faster a low revs (not sure why). Once the R gets onto the high-lift cam though, they're completely different beasts.

Edited by dom180 on Tuesday 23 June 21:09

[kambites]

bordseye said:

The performance against the stop watch of the 111R will be much better than the K series 156 bhp engine - the odd 50 kg weight difference (say 7%) is way outweighed by the 25% power gain. but the difference in every day driving is probably not noticeable. and the 111R is pretty peaky

real issue is - are you happy to risk the known unreliability of the K series. a lot of people are (or have to) because the K series cars are much cheaper. personally my days of getting out and getting under are gone so I wouldnt look at a K series

It's more like 100-150kg of weight difference. 0-60 is about 0.1 seconds faster; 0-100 is about a second faster, IIRC. Which I suppose is a fair bit.

I drove both back-to-back and thought the K-series was a vastly better car. Each to his own I guess. I also worked out that the head gasket only had to last two years on average for the fuel savings to pay for a new one. Whereas the oil starvation issues under heavy cornering in the Toyota...

If you actually look at prices, there is little in it between a 111S and a 111R of the same age, these days. Early 111Rs go for around 15k, late 111Ss are similar.


I suppose the Elise S is actually the most expensive of the engines (except the supercharged) because it's a newer model. So basically the trade off is age (and build quality) against speed.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th June 08:57

[robbieduncan]

kambites said:

I suppose the Elise S is actually the most expensive of the engines (except the supercharged) because it's a newer model. So basically the trade off is age (and build quality) against speed.

That would be the Elise SC, not the S. Seriously Lotus: sort out the naming!

[Fidgits]

I have to say, i much preffered the 111R, but then I'd say try both and see which you prefer.

[miro]

robbieduncan said:

kambites said:

I suppose the Elise S is actually the most expensive of the engines (except the supercharged) because it's a newer model. So basically the trade off is age (and build quality) against speed.

That would be the Elise SC, not the S. Seriously Lotus: sort out the naming!

That confused me tbh Do you mean that you can buy a cheaper 111S or 111R cars than Yota S as there are older 111S/111R cars available? If your Budget is £13000 you're unlikely to get a yota S but if it's £15500 you can get a realy nice S in ... um .. perhaps chrome orange . with a 2bular etc or a 111S or a 111R