S2 Exige - harnesses in Touring Pack car
Discussion
Easy question for the elite here. What's the deal with putting a harness bar and harnesses into my Touring spec Exige S? It's got the normal ProBax seats which are bloody comfortable. I've been round Brands in a Sport Pack equipped car with the harness-cutout seats and they're not as comfortable as the normal seats, but the harnesses would make me a damn sight quicker round Graham Hill where I'm falling out of the chair and bracing with my legs.
Harness use would be *purely* on track and I'd want to retain the inertia-reel belts for road use. I had this setup on the Noble and it worked well, but my S1 Elise had harnesses only and they made the car bloody dangerous on road w.r.t. blind spots and being able to look over one's shoulder (which is even *more* essential with the Exige S with the rear view mirror full of intercooler).
As the harnesses would only be used on trackdays (probably only 10 a year I'd have thought if I really make an effort) then I expect there wouldn't be too much in the way of abrasion damage to the leather on the standard seats?
Anyone done this? If it's not an option, and an all-or-nothing job, then I'd probably give up on the harnesses and end up compromising with a CG-lock. I need upper body mobility for road safety in that thing, the lack of rear-view is uncomfortable in heavy traffic on motorways and leaving junctions... but if I can have the best of both worlds (as in the Noble) then I'd be a couple of seconds quicker around Brands and I'm a competitive bugger who wants to keep up with the fast boys in the LoT club
Harness use would be *purely* on track and I'd want to retain the inertia-reel belts for road use. I had this setup on the Noble and it worked well, but my S1 Elise had harnesses only and they made the car bloody dangerous on road w.r.t. blind spots and being able to look over one's shoulder (which is even *more* essential with the Exige S with the rear view mirror full of intercooler).
As the harnesses would only be used on trackdays (probably only 10 a year I'd have thought if I really make an effort) then I expect there wouldn't be too much in the way of abrasion damage to the leather on the standard seats?
Anyone done this? If it's not an option, and an all-or-nothing job, then I'd probably give up on the harnesses and end up compromising with a CG-lock. I need upper body mobility for road safety in that thing, the lack of rear-view is uncomfortable in heavy traffic on motorways and leaving junctions... but if I can have the best of both worlds (as in the Noble) then I'd be a couple of seconds quicker around Brands and I'm a competitive bugger who wants to keep up with the fast boys in the LoT club
You will need to fit a harness bar which will require mods to your bulkhead plastic trim and obviously seats with harness holes.
Using them on seats without harness cutouts is not very safe(apparently)
You can either swap your seats for the Sports version or have some harness holes formed in your normal seats(which has been done before but again not really recommended)
I believe you can keep the inertia reel seatbelts with your harnesses.
Its fookin expensive whichever way you do it,sorry.
(FWIW)Harness bar is about £100 from EP,decent Schroths are about £130ish each,new seats £1500 from Lotus
Using them on seats without harness cutouts is not very safe(apparently)
You can either swap your seats for the Sports version or have some harness holes formed in your normal seats(which has been done before but again not really recommended)
I believe you can keep the inertia reel seatbelts with your harnesses.
Its fookin expensive whichever way you do it,sorry.
(FWIW)Harness bar is about £100 from EP,decent Schroths are about £130ish each,new seats £1500 from Lotus
Is it 100% definitely a 'need new seats' solution?
If so then forget it, the expense isn't the main issue, I simply find the current seats perfect and don't want holes cut in them. Can't the harnesses go over the seats and down? I'm not looking for race qualified technology here, just better location in the car on trackdays. I'm not going to be competing in that car.
IIRC my Noble had 'normal' looking seats without holes, and the harnesses worked just fine on that. The great thing there was that the harnesses could be tucked behind the seats when not in use, and weren't constantly moving around - any harnesses located through holes in the seats are going to be clouting your shoulders or neck when not used, surely... not very comfortable and probably not what you want in an accident...
If so then forget it, the expense isn't the main issue, I simply find the current seats perfect and don't want holes cut in them. Can't the harnesses go over the seats and down? I'm not looking for race qualified technology here, just better location in the car on trackdays. I'm not going to be competing in that car.
IIRC my Noble had 'normal' looking seats without holes, and the harnesses worked just fine on that. The great thing there was that the harnesses could be tucked behind the seats when not in use, and weren't constantly moving around - any harnesses located through holes in the seats are going to be clouting your shoulders or neck when not used, surely... not very comfortable and probably not what you want in an accident...
cyberface said:
Is it 100% definitely a 'need new seats' solution?
If so then forget it, the expense isn't the main issue, I simply find the current seats perfect and don't want holes cut in them. Can't the harnesses go over the seats and down? I'm not looking for race qualified technology here, just better location in the car on trackdays. I'm not going to be competing in that car.
IIRC my Noble had 'normal' looking seats without holes, and the harnesses worked just fine on that. The great thing there was that the harnesses could be tucked behind the seats when not in use, and weren't constantly moving around - any harnesses located through holes in the seats are going to be clouting your shoulders or neck when not used, surely... not very comfortable and probably not what you want in an accident...
It was discussed at length on SELOC recently and as you can see Jen from MSAR Safety points out the risks:If so then forget it, the expense isn't the main issue, I simply find the current seats perfect and don't want holes cut in them. Can't the harnesses go over the seats and down? I'm not looking for race qualified technology here, just better location in the car on trackdays. I'm not going to be competing in that car.
IIRC my Noble had 'normal' looking seats without holes, and the harnesses worked just fine on that. The great thing there was that the harnesses could be tucked behind the seats when not in use, and weren't constantly moving around - any harnesses located through holes in the seats are going to be clouting your shoulders or neck when not used, surely... not very comfortable and probably not what you want in an accident...
http://forums.seloc.org/viewthread.php?tid=192388&...
Hope this helps
Fair enough. In trying to ascertain exactly what my old Noble was like I've found the car is currently up for sale... still with the old number plate I remember. Ha ha, brought back memories. Some of the Nobles definitely did have holes in the seats for the Willans harnesses, I can't remember mine having them (though they were lightweight ones) - mine was an early 2.5 car though (LG02HVX for those interested, at 'Oliver Cars Ltd' at the moment apparently)...
Anyway I'm not changing the seats in the Exige so looks like I'll be limited to a CG Lock - are they that much use to stop you sliding out of the chairs in off-camber corners?
Anyway I'm not changing the seats in the Exige so looks like I'll be limited to a CG Lock - are they that much use to stop you sliding out of the chairs in off-camber corners?
Huge thumbs-up for CG-Lock here. Set up properly it locks the part of the seat belt across your hips, locking them against the seat. Your upper body can still move around with movement from the inertia reel, so it feels a lot less restricted than a full harness, but your lower body is going nowhere, so bracing with legs and consequent loss of pedal control is not an issue.
For touring, it also takes a lot of the stress off the lower back. For the driver at least - I fitted one to the passenger side too, and the benefit isn't nearly as great - possibly because we're a short-legged family, and don't get to support much weight on the passenger footrest. Seeing if I can shim or move it so that the surface is a little closer to the seat is one of the jobs on my to-do list...
Tol
For touring, it also takes a lot of the stress off the lower back. For the driver at least - I fitted one to the passenger side too, and the benefit isn't nearly as great - possibly because we're a short-legged family, and don't get to support much weight on the passenger footrest. Seeing if I can shim or move it so that the surface is a little closer to the seat is one of the jobs on my to-do list...
Tol
Have a word with Sinclaires who are local: http://www.sinclairebodyshop.co.uk/index.html
Ask for a harness bar which will accept bolt in harnesses: http://www.eliseparts.com/shop/index.php?main_page...
Then choose your choice of harness from your preferred supplier - I've previously used Willans Silverstone bolt in versions on my old 111R which were very good. I use Shroth ASM ones in my Exige which I obtained from Malcolm at MSAR: http://www.msar-safety.com/
You don't NEED to change the seats.
HTH
Ask for a harness bar which will accept bolt in harnesses: http://www.eliseparts.com/shop/index.php?main_page...
Then choose your choice of harness from your preferred supplier - I've previously used Willans Silverstone bolt in versions on my old 111R which were very good. I use Shroth ASM ones in my Exige which I obtained from Malcolm at MSAR: http://www.msar-safety.com/
You don't NEED to change the seats.
HTH
I have just fitted a Lotus bar, and it is a royal pain in the arse but the end results are an OEM part of the sports pack. At the moment I just have the standard seats with no harnesses, but I think I'll be using the harnesses on these seats once or twice untill I get my motorsport seats.
I can supply part numbers, and fitting tips. You'll need harness bar, bar bolts, bar washers, speaker re-location pods, 12 x plastic riverts and a bag of patience.
I can supply part numbers, and fitting tips. You'll need harness bar, bar bolts, bar washers, speaker re-location pods, 12 x plastic riverts and a bag of patience.
I had Willans Silverstones in the Honda'd car both with standard S2 seats (like the Touring ones) and with the Motorsport shelled ones (supplied in the Sports Pack cars).
The former you can use, but you will find that the harnesses don't sit as well across the shoulder as they do with the latter. One way to get around the mild 'spread' which occurs is to use harness pads to raise them on your shoulder. I, and the previous owner, did numerous trackdays with them with no issues at all.
Undoubtedly the motorsport seats offer a better fit, but you don't 'need' them. I certainly wouldn't upgrade them first. Get the bar fitted and try it as-is, then if you feel you wish to upgrade, there are various options, not all of which are as expensive as the Lotus shelled seats. The Lotus ones are, however, much better quality than anything else I've seen, unless you want to go for carbon-fibre shells, in which case the Tillet's are excellent value-for-money.
Re: the comment about harnesses and blind spots and junctions... with quick releases I soon found that I could see fine at all times, never a problem.
A further point for consideration which I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning. When bogie had his accident earlier this year he was wearing Schroth harnesses. Had he been wearing inertia reels he might well have been much worse off.
If I had another Elise/Exige, I would have good quality harnesses and wear them all the time.
The former you can use, but you will find that the harnesses don't sit as well across the shoulder as they do with the latter. One way to get around the mild 'spread' which occurs is to use harness pads to raise them on your shoulder. I, and the previous owner, did numerous trackdays with them with no issues at all.
Undoubtedly the motorsport seats offer a better fit, but you don't 'need' them. I certainly wouldn't upgrade them first. Get the bar fitted and try it as-is, then if you feel you wish to upgrade, there are various options, not all of which are as expensive as the Lotus shelled seats. The Lotus ones are, however, much better quality than anything else I've seen, unless you want to go for carbon-fibre shells, in which case the Tillet's are excellent value-for-money.
Re: the comment about harnesses and blind spots and junctions... with quick releases I soon found that I could see fine at all times, never a problem.
A further point for consideration which I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning. When bogie had his accident earlier this year he was wearing Schroth harnesses. Had he been wearing inertia reels he might well have been much worse off.
If I had another Elise/Exige, I would have good quality harnesses and wear them all the time.
In the SELOC thread he also said that if he hadn't have had the proper Willans-through-correct-parallel-holes harness and seat setup, then things may have turned out bad too.
As in wrapping the harnesses over the shoulders of regular seats, which was what my query was about...
I wouldn't wear full harnesses on road because I still believe the visibility restriction is more dangerous than the increase in safety should you crash, but given Bogie's '20 mph' statistic I sincerely hope I don't crash at high speed.
My desire for harnesses isn't for ultimate crash safety because I'd bloody well hope that I didn't have a road-size stack on a trackday, given the safety precautions, runoff, tyre walls, and cars going the same way. The probability of large delta-V crashes is weighted heavily towards road driving, where oncoming cars can double the impact velocity.
All I wanted an optional harness for was to hold me in my chair on trackdays, as I'm cornering hard enough to fall out and need to brace with my legs (less than ideal in many ways). I'll hopefully get 10 or so trackdays in during the year, meaning the car spends the vast amount of its miles doing fun road driving - and having had cars with harness only and the option of either, I will NOT entertain any harness install that forces me to use them at all times on road. With the rear visibility limitation in the Exige S anyway, and the fact it fulfils its current role as a adequately comfortable fun road car even for 400 mile trips, using harnesses safely (i.e. tight and secure) on the road would be claustrophobic, uncomfortable and unergonomic (i.e. can't reach heater / blower / radio controls whilst on move, etc.).
Just my opinion - I know they're better on track, that's why I want them, but not at the expense of being able to use standard inertia-reels. If the 'only safe, recommended solution' is to replace the seat with a Sports pre-holed seat, can I still use the old inertia reel belt for road driving? And can I have the same ProBax padding as per my current 'Touring' or whatever seats? I find them remarkably comfortable and don't want a step backwards.
I love the car - it's so good at everything, but given it's raised my expectations of it so damn high, I'm not willing to lose any of the good bits I'm not wealthy enough to have a Lotus as a track and summer weekend toy - I want to get my money's worth of sheer fun out of my car!! As a result I have to be pragmatic - that last second per lap on track has to take second place to usability and road comfort, and perhaps I'll have to rack back the competitiveness on trackdays 
As in wrapping the harnesses over the shoulders of regular seats, which was what my query was about...
I wouldn't wear full harnesses on road because I still believe the visibility restriction is more dangerous than the increase in safety should you crash, but given Bogie's '20 mph' statistic I sincerely hope I don't crash at high speed.
My desire for harnesses isn't for ultimate crash safety because I'd bloody well hope that I didn't have a road-size stack on a trackday, given the safety precautions, runoff, tyre walls, and cars going the same way. The probability of large delta-V crashes is weighted heavily towards road driving, where oncoming cars can double the impact velocity.
All I wanted an optional harness for was to hold me in my chair on trackdays, as I'm cornering hard enough to fall out and need to brace with my legs (less than ideal in many ways). I'll hopefully get 10 or so trackdays in during the year, meaning the car spends the vast amount of its miles doing fun road driving - and having had cars with harness only and the option of either, I will NOT entertain any harness install that forces me to use them at all times on road. With the rear visibility limitation in the Exige S anyway, and the fact it fulfils its current role as a adequately comfortable fun road car even for 400 mile trips, using harnesses safely (i.e. tight and secure) on the road would be claustrophobic, uncomfortable and unergonomic (i.e. can't reach heater / blower / radio controls whilst on move, etc.).
Just my opinion - I know they're better on track, that's why I want them, but not at the expense of being able to use standard inertia-reels. If the 'only safe, recommended solution' is to replace the seat with a Sports pre-holed seat, can I still use the old inertia reel belt for road driving? And can I have the same ProBax padding as per my current 'Touring' or whatever seats? I find them remarkably comfortable and don't want a step backwards.
I love the car - it's so good at everything, but given it's raised my expectations of it so damn high, I'm not willing to lose any of the good bits
I'm not wealthy enough to have a Lotus as a track and summer weekend toy - I want to get my money's worth of sheer fun out of my car!! As a result I have to be pragmatic - that last second per lap on track has to take second place to usability and road comfort, and perhaps I'll have to rack back the competitiveness on trackdays Re: preference, totally your call of course.
With the motorsport shells you can specify them in whatever spec you want. So yes, you can have similar padding on the seat, the back, wherever. I specced mine to the 'cup' spec seats from the Exige, as I found them most comfortable for all applications. They felt a bit odd at first (moving from S2 111S seats - which are very like the touring pack), as I felt like I was sitting 'on' them rather than 'in' them, but that was just me getting used to them. With 4-point harnesses they were excellent, and I covered thousands of road and track miles in them, UK and Europe, in total comfort. They cost a lot (£750 a pop, plus runners), but they are excellent quality and it was nice to be able to order them in exactly the spec I wanted. An extravagance for sure, but hey, if you can afford it, why the hell not.
cyberface said:
Just my opinion - I know they're better on track, that's why I want them, but not at the expense of being able to use standard inertia-reels. If the 'only safe, recommended solution' is to replace the seat with a Sports pre-holed seat, can I still use the old inertia reel belt for road driving? And can I have the same ProBax padding as per my current 'Touring' or whatever seats? I find them remarkably comfortable and don't want a step backwards.
You can fit both if you want to. Many people have. If you want some first hand advice, Shangani has a dual set-up (or did have) in his S2 Elise (standard seats) and there are a number of people on SELOC with motorsport seats who have both IIRC. With the motorsport shells you can specify them in whatever spec you want. So yes, you can have similar padding on the seat, the back, wherever. I specced mine to the 'cup' spec seats from the Exige, as I found them most comfortable for all applications. They felt a bit odd at first (moving from S2 111S seats - which are very like the touring pack), as I felt like I was sitting 'on' them rather than 'in' them, but that was just me getting used to them. With 4-point harnesses they were excellent, and I covered thousands of road and track miles in them, UK and Europe, in total comfort. They cost a lot (£750 a pop, plus runners), but they are excellent quality and it was nice to be able to order them in exactly the spec I wanted. An extravagance for sure, but hey, if you can afford it, why the hell not.
cyberface said:
I love the car - it's so good at everything, but given it's raised my expectations of it so damn high, I'm not willing to lose any of the good bits I'm not wealthy enough to have a Lotus as a track and summer weekend toy - I want to get my money's worth of sheer fun out of my car!! As a result I have to be pragmatic - that last second per lap on track has to take second place to usability and road comfort, and perhaps I'll have to rack back the competitiveness on trackdays
With harnesses your fun with the car will be many times better on track. Do it I'm not wealthy enough to have a Lotus as a track and summer weekend toy - I want to get my money's worth of sheer fun out of my car!! As a result I have to be pragmatic - that last second per lap on track has to take second place to usability and road comfort, and perhaps I'll have to rack back the competitiveness on trackdays Having read a fair bit of info into full harness fitting into various cars, I would avoid using harnesses with the std Lotus seats.
In my Exige I am lucky to have the motorsport seats. I have fitted some Schroth ASM four pointers and have also left the old inertia reels in for when I'm popping out for fuel etc.
I like having the choice of belts, although having read about bogies experiences early last year, if I'm going anywhere over 20mph or more than 2 miles away, I will always put the Schroth's on and do them up TIGHT.
Having used them daily for some time, I wouldn't travel in an Elise/Exige without been harnessed in now.
Obviously it's each to their own, but you cant put a price on your own safety.
Rpm
In my Exige I am lucky to have the motorsport seats. I have fitted some Schroth ASM four pointers and have also left the old inertia reels in for when I'm popping out for fuel etc.
I like having the choice of belts, although having read about bogies experiences early last year, if I'm going anywhere over 20mph or more than 2 miles away, I will always put the Schroth's on and do them up TIGHT.
Having used them daily for some time, I wouldn't travel in an Elise/Exige without been harnessed in now.
Obviously it's each to their own, but you cant put a price on your own safety.
Rpm
Understood... but with zero rear visibility and a massive over-shoulder blind spot, I'm not driving on the road with full harnesses on because I feel more likely to be the cause of a side impact when exiting junctions or changing lanes. In the Exige S I make a habit of doing the 'lifesaver' check bike-style because of the limited rear vis and full harnesses prevent you from doing this. I've had two cars before with full harnesses and whilst they may save you in a huge stack, I personally believe that I'm more likely to get into an accident due to insufficient visibility, so the trade off is negative. Just my opinion, I didn't want this to get into a harnesses vs inertia reel on the road argument.
Tim - given all the SELOC stuff about how harnesses on standard seats are 'so dangerous', I'm very surprised that someone like shangani would do that. Perhaps some of the 'danger' is overblown? I see how badly fitted harnesses without seat holes could, in specific circumstances, slip left and right leaving the upper body unprotected - and that's the main danger AFAICS - but seems to be a fair amount of FUD, as is par for the course on SELOC unfortunately
Still undecided. Doing it properly would be ideal but don't the harnesses get in the way (i.e. scratch your ears / face) when folded back behind the seats for road driving? If 'done properly' with the motorsport seats then the harnesses are stuck through the holes, surely - or can they be threaded out of the holes to remain behind the seats until use?
Tim - given all the SELOC stuff about how harnesses on standard seats are 'so dangerous', I'm very surprised that someone like shangani would do that. Perhaps some of the 'danger' is overblown? I see how badly fitted harnesses without seat holes could, in specific circumstances, slip left and right leaving the upper body unprotected - and that's the main danger AFAICS - but seems to be a fair amount of FUD, as is par for the course on SELOC unfortunately
Still undecided. Doing it properly would be ideal but don't the harnesses get in the way (i.e. scratch your ears / face) when folded back behind the seats for road driving? If 'done properly' with the motorsport seats then the harnesses are stuck through the holes, surely - or can they be threaded out of the holes to remain behind the seats until use?
Can't help you with the seats/harnesses as i think youve already been given all the (nicely conflicting!) info and choices.
But if you are finding blind spots a pain then i can thoroughly recommend a pair of these:
http://www.hangar111.com/ckshop.php?item=746
HTH
Simon
But if you are finding blind spots a pain then i can thoroughly recommend a pair of these:
http://www.hangar111.com/ckshop.php?item=746
HTH
Simon
I understand you on the restricted movement/visibility, it can sometimes prove awkward.
Whenever I am wearing the std belts I just sit on the harness shoulder straps and move the lap belts to each side. Its ok for 10 -20 mins but certainly not for any longer.
If your not using the harnesses much you could feed the shoulder belts back through the seat holes as it wouldn't be too fiddly, although the fixed pax seat may make it pain. You may have to then tie them together to stop them swinging about behind the seats.
Whenever I am wearing the std belts I just sit on the harness shoulder straps and move the lap belts to each side. Its ok for 10 -20 mins but certainly not for any longer.
If your not using the harnesses much you could feed the shoulder belts back through the seat holes as it wouldn't be too fiddly, although the fixed pax seat may make it pain. You may have to then tie them together to stop them swinging about behind the seats.
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