Actual Difference between 111R and 111S
Discussion
Hi guys,
Just wondering if there is much of a difference between the 111R and the 111S, both S2 by the way. I have read the spec on both and i know the differences on paper but if anyone who has had the pleasure of owning of driving both could just give me some ideas on what they thought.
I've been thinking about getting an elise for a long time now and the 111S is a fair bit cheaper than the 111R. Better car or more bits and new engine adding to expense??
Thanks
Just wondering if there is much of a difference between the 111R and the 111S, both S2 by the way. I have read the spec on both and i know the differences on paper but if anyone who has had the pleasure of owning of driving both could just give me some ideas on what they thought.
I've been thinking about getting an elise for a long time now and the 111S is a fair bit cheaper than the 111R. Better car or more bits and new engine adding to expense??
Thanks
I owned a 111S and I've always said that I thought it was one of the best, most perfectly suited engine/chassis/speed matings I've come across.
Not masses of power, not a mega peaky engine that requires many gear changes, but just a perfectly mated engine/chassis.
I've not lived long term with a 111R engine, so can't comment on that, but others around here are far more qualified than I to talk about that
Not masses of power, not a mega peaky engine that requires many gear changes, but just a perfectly mated engine/chassis.
I've not lived long term with a 111R engine, so can't comment on that, but others around here are far more qualified than I to talk about that
This could spark a never ending debate! I think at the end of the day it comes down to personal choice. I have a 111R and have driven other Elise variants inc S1 160. I like them all, but I do like the all round appeal of the 111R(i.e the ability to drive 1400 miles in a weekend and survived - Just!).The Probax seats on 06 car onwards are perfect and well recommended. I believe you can get most S2 seats retrimmed to Probax spec for £700+.
Drive both, buy one and then drive it to Europe!
Drive both, buy one and then drive it to Europe!
Edited by Stu_00 on Monday 18th August 13:08
As suggested above, you really do need to drive both and see which you prefer.
I'd say that the most noticeable difference when I first drove the 2 were:
1. The gearchange - much slicker in the toyota car
2. The brakes - no servo on the 111S and so the hard brake pedal may take some getting used to
3. The performance - despite 190 bhp v 156 bhp, the cars are very similar in outright pace IMO with the 111S having a more linear power delivery.
Whichever one you choose - they're both great cars
I'd say that the most noticeable difference when I first drove the 2 were:
1. The gearchange - much slicker in the toyota car
2. The brakes - no servo on the 111S and so the hard brake pedal may take some getting used to
3. The performance - despite 190 bhp v 156 bhp, the cars are very similar in outright pace IMO with the 111S having a more linear power delivery.
Whichever one you choose - they're both great cars
I drove both and chose a 111S. However, I can see each car having it's fans. My main summary is as follows:
1. 111S feels lighter on its feet.
2. 111S has torque through the rev range, whereas the 111R shoves it all up top in an eye widening burst. It's almost like someone's thrown a switch when you hit a certain rpm (from memory it's about 6,200rpm?). Power to weight wise, and regarding seat of the pants feel the 111R is every so slightly quicker. In the real world though, going up and down through the gears, I doubt there's much in it. For me the Elise has never been about power anyway - there's something about the mood of the car that just doesn't make me want to rag it everywhere. It carries such huge speed through the corners and offers such feedback that I think the torquier delivery of the VVC engine in the 111S suits it best. Just my thoughts. The high revving 111R engine is more like the engines in the "R" Caterhams, which do beg to be ragged! I guess it depends what you get out of an Elise - for me it's about fingertip control and a big satisfied smile on my face that the car is just so right in the way it drives, rather than how fast it is or isn't.
3. The 111R has servo brakes. The early cars saw the pedal sink noticeably before it bit, which is ok when you get used to it, but the problem is that once you're braking the pedal is a couple of inches lower than the throttle so heel and toe is almost impossible. I've seen it done, but I've never managed it in the 111Rs that I've driven. The pedal bite got better over the years, but the heel and toe problem was only really sorted when the car went drive by wire, which introduced a much lower throttle pedal.
4. The 111S is an old school S2 with all the touring bits added, whereas the 111R is more refined as standard.
My decision was mainly made around two facts:
My commute to work at the time was 15 minutes, with only the first 10 on B roads, and I didn't see me using 6,200rpm all that much.
I heel and toe an awful lot, and driving an early 111R (all I could afford at the time) was compromising my driving style, meaning that I could only change gear if I wasn't braking. I felt too constrained by that.
There's just something about the 111S that just felt right to me. Something to do with the lightness and refinement levels being just right adds a personal bit of x factor for me.
Oh, and before I sign off, don't let anyone tell you anything about understeer on the Elise. If you drive an Elise like a heavy handed oaf, then with the weight distribution and tyres the way they are you will get understeer. If you spend about 3 minutes thinking about how to drive a car properly, then it's not an issue at all. No need to be an amazing driver, just give it some thought and understeer will never appear as a problem.
1. 111S feels lighter on its feet.
2. 111S has torque through the rev range, whereas the 111R shoves it all up top in an eye widening burst. It's almost like someone's thrown a switch when you hit a certain rpm (from memory it's about 6,200rpm?). Power to weight wise, and regarding seat of the pants feel the 111R is every so slightly quicker. In the real world though, going up and down through the gears, I doubt there's much in it. For me the Elise has never been about power anyway - there's something about the mood of the car that just doesn't make me want to rag it everywhere. It carries such huge speed through the corners and offers such feedback that I think the torquier delivery of the VVC engine in the 111S suits it best. Just my thoughts. The high revving 111R engine is more like the engines in the "R" Caterhams, which do beg to be ragged! I guess it depends what you get out of an Elise - for me it's about fingertip control and a big satisfied smile on my face that the car is just so right in the way it drives, rather than how fast it is or isn't.
3. The 111R has servo brakes. The early cars saw the pedal sink noticeably before it bit, which is ok when you get used to it, but the problem is that once you're braking the pedal is a couple of inches lower than the throttle so heel and toe is almost impossible. I've seen it done, but I've never managed it in the 111Rs that I've driven. The pedal bite got better over the years, but the heel and toe problem was only really sorted when the car went drive by wire, which introduced a much lower throttle pedal.
4. The 111S is an old school S2 with all the touring bits added, whereas the 111R is more refined as standard.
My decision was mainly made around two facts:
My commute to work at the time was 15 minutes, with only the first 10 on B roads, and I didn't see me using 6,200rpm all that much.
I heel and toe an awful lot, and driving an early 111R (all I could afford at the time) was compromising my driving style, meaning that I could only change gear if I wasn't braking. I felt too constrained by that.
There's just something about the 111S that just felt right to me. Something to do with the lightness and refinement levels being just right adds a personal bit of x factor for me.
Oh, and before I sign off, don't let anyone tell you anything about understeer on the Elise. If you drive an Elise like a heavy handed oaf, then with the weight distribution and tyres the way they are you will get understeer. If you spend about 3 minutes thinking about how to drive a car properly, then it's not an issue at all. No need to be an amazing driver, just give it some thought and understeer will never appear as a problem.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 19th August 08:14
I drove both before deciding too, and decided the 111S was a better car, although they both have their merits...
The 111S feels slightly better balanced - the 111R has its weight biased further to the rear and you can really feel it sometimes.
The 111S feels torquier. It's an illusion, they have almost identical torque curves up to the point where the second cam kicks in in the 111R but of course the 111S is a fair bit lighter.
The 111R has the second cam which makes it feel much faster when you're really pushing on. There isn't actually a massive difference in overall performance though.
The 111R has servo'd brakes - I don't like them but that's a matter of personal taste.
The 111R has a far better feeling gearbox.
The 111R rides better but, to me, doesn't feel quite as informative. I think that might just have been slightly dodgy geo on the car I drove though.
The 111S gives better fuel economy (by about 5mpg, I average 37-38mpg from mine and have had nearly 50mpg from it when slipstreaming a lorry on the motorway) and is significantly cheaper to tax.
The 111S will always have head gasket worries.
Ultimately I preferred the 111S but I there wasn't much in it. Since mine is a daily driver, running costs were a significant factor for me and that's probably what finally tipped the decision in favour of the K-series. Of course the 111S is a bit cheaper to buy too.
The 111S feels slightly better balanced - the 111R has its weight biased further to the rear and you can really feel it sometimes.
The 111S feels torquier. It's an illusion, they have almost identical torque curves up to the point where the second cam kicks in in the 111R but of course the 111S is a fair bit lighter.
The 111R has the second cam which makes it feel much faster when you're really pushing on. There isn't actually a massive difference in overall performance though.
The 111R has servo'd brakes - I don't like them but that's a matter of personal taste.
The 111R has a far better feeling gearbox.
The 111R rides better but, to me, doesn't feel quite as informative. I think that might just have been slightly dodgy geo on the car I drove though.
The 111S gives better fuel economy (by about 5mpg, I average 37-38mpg from mine and have had nearly 50mpg from it when slipstreaming a lorry on the motorway) and is significantly cheaper to tax.
The 111S will always have head gasket worries.
Ultimately I preferred the 111S but I there wasn't much in it. Since mine is a daily driver, running costs were a significant factor for me and that's probably what finally tipped the decision in favour of the K-series. Of course the 111S is a bit cheaper to buy too.
Scuffers said:
Just for clarity, which S are people talking about on here?
I had assumed we were talking the Toyota engined S but reading some of the comments, sounds more like people describing the K serised 111S?
The OP asked about the 111S. That's the K-series engined car. The lower powered Toyota car is just the "S".I had assumed we were talking the Toyota engined S but reading some of the comments, sounds more like people describing the K serised 111S?
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th August 09:31
GTO-3R said:
I'm reading this with great interest as i am trying to make the same decision
There really is no substitute for driving both. There is no "right" answer, it's simply personal preference. Probably worth driving the VX220T and Europa too.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th August 09:48
kambites said:
GTO-3R said:
I'm reading this with great interest as i am trying to make the same decision
There really is no substitute for driving both. There is no "right" answer, it's simply personal preference. Probably worth driving the VX220T and Europa too.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th August 09:48
They aren’t better or faster, look what happened to them in the Trophy rubbish!I’ve personally driven all variant’s of the Elise and found the R more rewarding by far, I'd even pipe it over a Elise SC but the S/C car is obviously faster. Drive the whole lot and make your own decision, don't rule out the Elise S (Toyota) it may not have the power of the R or the 111S but a cracking car all the same
Boggy
TonyHetherington said:
I'll tell you how good the 111s is...and I've not said this on here before... I'm seriously considering if the Exige S was the right thing to do. Its a great great car, don't get me wrong, but in my eyes the model year 04 111s was near perfect.
I know this is probably goig to be un-popular, but I do tend to agree with you, of all the S2's, the last of the 111S's are the best IMHO, build quality was at it's best, and they were still at sencible weights.TonyHetherington said:
I'll tell you how good the 111s is...and I've not said this on here before... I'm seriously considering if the Exige S was the right thing to do. Its a great great car, don't get me wrong, but in my eyes the model year 04 111s was near perfect.
Could you expand on that a little? I'm interested to compare your experiences with mine. I've owned a 111S for three years now and have test driven an Exige S.Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff