Spy shots of new Elise
Discussion
Just done a bit of browsing onthe Toyota web site, the 2.2 VVTI only produces 150bhp. Granted I expect the version to be used by Lotus to be tuned a bit higher, but say it only gets to 160 - 165bhp, well that's no great advance on the S2 is it?
Ignoring the Lotus v's Vauxhall petty arguements for a moment and simply concentrating on the engine unit, the way the VX220 turbo has raised the game in the power stakes I suspect the next Lotus unit may have to have significant modifications to keep up. In which case the Tstd oyota unit doesn't appear to cut the mustard does it. Opinions?
Chris
Ignoring the Lotus v's Vauxhall petty arguements for a moment and simply concentrating on the engine unit, the way the VX220 turbo has raised the game in the power stakes I suspect the next Lotus unit may have to have significant modifications to keep up. In which case the Tstd oyota unit doesn't appear to cut the mustard does it. Opinions?
Chris
Just try an remember that COST is a big issue here - if the Elise gets into Boxster territory on the money front it'll be no use.
The Elise Mk1's sucess was due to the sub £20K price tag above all else.
300bhp might be wonderful but I'm sure it won't come cheap thus negating the point of the Elise.
Then you have to consider the M250 replacement and the Esprit replacement and how much power they would have to have to make their price tags justifiable?
I like my Elise the way it is - Its fun, cheap to run and exactly what I wanted. 1-200 more hp and it'll be a ridiculous tailhappy monster and then everyone will start moaning about the tyres again...
Save up for the M260 and stop moaning - Leave my liz alone
The Elise Mk1's sucess was due to the sub £20K price tag above all else.
300bhp might be wonderful but I'm sure it won't come cheap thus negating the point of the Elise.
Then you have to consider the M250 replacement and the Esprit replacement and how much power they would have to have to make their price tags justifiable?
I like my Elise the way it is - Its fun, cheap to run and exactly what I wanted. 1-200 more hp and it'll be a ridiculous tailhappy monster and then everyone will start moaning about the tyres again...
Save up for the M260 and stop moaning - Leave my liz alone
bogie said: The 1.8 VVTI in the Celica comes in 2 flavours - 140bhp and 190bhp ...isnt this what we are getting in the new Elise?
There's two versions of the 1.8 engine. The VVT-i which has variable valve timing and the VVTL-i which also varies the valve lift.
The power outputs are as described.
Taking the 1.8l up to 2.2 (22% increase in capacity) would get you into the power territory you're after
Incidently, there's a 500bhp version of the Celica in Japan!
Stig said:
Taking the 1.8l up to 2.2 (22% increase in capacity) would get you into the power territory you're after
Ah, Ok that explains things a bit better. I just didn't see how things were going to work with the std Toyota unit.
Personally I couldn't care what unit goes into the S3.
I'm simply over the moon with my std 118bhp S2. It does exactly what I want it to. I love the way it drives and the sensations I get.
Mind you I'm currently thinking of some surgery at DVA next year
I completely agree about being wary of price. Once you get to a certain point you run the risk of losing some customers to the Boxster / s2000 etc. I know for me that would not be the case as I love the stripped down nature of the car, it does exactly what I want, I don't care about all the toys.
Chris
well to put it in perspective- in Australia the base model boxter costs AUD107,000 and I just paid AUD105,000 for my black 111s... but boxters are EVERYWHERE and my 111s gets more attention than the BMW Mroadster I just traded on it (though the 89 Esprit SE does still get a touch more attention!)
Anyhow nothing comes close to the elise in the ripping through traffic (fits through small gaps) and city streets... (light & nimble and goes around 90 degree corners like a slot car...)
Anyhow nothing comes close to the elise in the ripping through traffic (fits through small gaps) and city streets... (light & nimble and goes around 90 degree corners like a slot car...)
plus there is a certain stigma associated with being a boxster owner/driver. they are looked down on by 911 owners, but both boxster and 911 owners stare something chronic at the S2 111s, at least they do at mine in Hong Kong...
Sydneyse said: well to put it in perspective- in Australia the base model boxter costs AUD107,000 and I just paid AUD105,000 for my black 111s... but boxters are EVERYWHERE and my 111s gets more attention than the BMW Mroadster I just traded on it (though the 89 Esprit SE does still get a touch more attention!)
Anyhow nothing comes close to the elise in the ripping through traffic (fits through small gaps) and city streets... (light & nimble and goes around 90 degree corners like a slot car...)
Have to admit I don't 'get' the people who demand the basic Elise starts with 250bhp - I suspect they haven't driven one
250bhp would make it far too easy to loose control and frankly would be dangerous in the hands of most first time owners. I know I've embarassed myself enough times in a 111S (about 187bhp/ton, a 250bhp engine would give roughly 310bhp/ton). More than doubling the standard power output wouldn't change the top speed (which is limited by aerodynamics and noise far more than engine) and would make a very small practical difference to 0-60 times.
Repeat a million times 'The Elise will never be a Boxter - thank Chapman'
250bhp would make it far too easy to loose control and frankly would be dangerous in the hands of most first time owners. I know I've embarassed myself enough times in a 111S (about 187bhp/ton, a 250bhp engine would give roughly 310bhp/ton). More than doubling the standard power output wouldn't change the top speed (which is limited by aerodynamics and noise far more than engine) and would make a very small practical difference to 0-60 times.
Repeat a million times 'The Elise will never be a Boxter - thank Chapman'
Tuna said: Have to admit I don't 'get' the people who demand the basic Elise starts with 250bhp - I suspect they haven't driven one
Agreed - statements like 'The Elise needs 250bhp minimum' from a Subaru driver is all very well but I suspect that with 250bhp or similar the car would not be as easy to live with and drive on a daily basis.
Ted's point about power delivery is valid but wasn't your drive of the VTEC engined car on a track?
If you want lots of power, rear wheel drive and a fibreglass body, buy a TVR! If you want razor sharp handling and bang for your buck then buy an Elise!
Tuna said: Have to admit I don't 'get' the people who demand the basic Elise starts with 250bhp - I suspect they haven't driven one
250bhp would make it far too easy to loose control and frankly would be dangerous in the hands of most first time owners. I know I've embarassed myself enough times in a 111S (about 187bhp/ton, a 250bhp engine would give roughly 310bhp/ton). More than doubling the standard power output wouldn't change the top speed (which is limited by aerodynamics and noise far more than engine) and would make a very small practical difference to 0-60 times.
Repeat a million times 'The Elise will never be a Boxter - thank Chapman'
Not true, Chapman always wanted power, but power through lack of weight. The S2 is heavier than the s1 and I believe is woefully underpowered. 118bhp is cr@p.
I have drive S1 elise and Exige with 190bhp and the Exige is a far better car simply because of the power and IMHO is the best of the bunch. I'm glad to see the latest headline of a 300bhp Elise the term "at long last - a supercar elise" springs to mind.
Whilst all the Elise handling is superb. I found with the standard Elise the kick needed to get past 45mph country road numpty wasn't there. I actually found the M100 Elan with turbo felt far better although the figures would suggest otherwise.
This lack of power was the one reason that I didn't buy an Elise. Equally as a final point look at how many people have bought after market power enhancements.
To Ted:
Don't get me wrong, if you're used to it 250bhp would be great - perfect for track days. However, if (like most Elise owners) the Liz is your first 'proper' sports car, 250bhp is asking for trouble. After a standard hot hatch, the ability to unstick the back end just by pressing hard with your foot is a new experience. I'm reminded of the large number of front end shunts TVRs have apparently been in because new owners are in the habit of putting their feet down and then pulling out to overtake - something you have to unlearn in a serious sports car.
It seems when considering buying an Elise for the first time, many people really don't appreciate that the low weight is equivalent to an extra 50% power over most 'normal' cars.
To Smeagol:
My only objection is the strange idea that the Elise base model should start with outrageous bhp, and that the Elise is somehow a competitor to things like Boxters. Even the most basic current Elise is a class above most production cars in terms of handling and performance. There is room for upgrades, but beyond a certain point we're really talking about a different car. Rather than constant upgrades to the Elise, I'm desperately keen for Lotus to bring out the Esprit replacement, and find room for a third model between the Elise and Esprit.
>> Edited by Tuna on Thursday 29th May 12:28
Don't get me wrong, if you're used to it 250bhp would be great - perfect for track days. However, if (like most Elise owners) the Liz is your first 'proper' sports car, 250bhp is asking for trouble. After a standard hot hatch, the ability to unstick the back end just by pressing hard with your foot is a new experience. I'm reminded of the large number of front end shunts TVRs have apparently been in because new owners are in the habit of putting their feet down and then pulling out to overtake - something you have to unlearn in a serious sports car.
It seems when considering buying an Elise for the first time, many people really don't appreciate that the low weight is equivalent to an extra 50% power over most 'normal' cars.
To Smeagol:
My only objection is the strange idea that the Elise base model should start with outrageous bhp, and that the Elise is somehow a competitor to things like Boxters. Even the most basic current Elise is a class above most production cars in terms of handling and performance. There is room for upgrades, but beyond a certain point we're really talking about a different car. Rather than constant upgrades to the Elise, I'm desperately keen for Lotus to bring out the Esprit replacement, and find room for a third model between the Elise and Esprit.
>> Edited by Tuna on Thursday 29th May 12:28
See where you're coming from but really thats no reason not to rpovide the power but more to emphasise that the car is a proper sports car and needs respect as such.
I'm currently training for bike riding. When/if I pass I will be able to ride any size bike. That doesn't mean I'm going to jump on a blade and thrash it down the road, and if I did get on a sports bike I would treat it as such.
The same can be said for the Elise. It is a proper sports car it should be considered as such. Unfortunately I feel that the lack of power actually has the wrong effect in that people believe they can floor it and be fine which is not true for the mid-engine setup. Perhaps more power would be a benefit so that drivers realise this.
Edited to reply to edit:
Agree that the base level should/can be low powered (but I do believ the 118bhp is really cr@p and not suitable for a car of this type see above) but at the moment there is no option for an official high powered version. Making it very expensive in both upgrades and insurance as "its no longer standard" throws a heavy weighting. I would love to see lotus make an Esprit replacement (I think GT1 style Elise would be perfect)
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 29th May 12:39
I'm currently training for bike riding. When/if I pass I will be able to ride any size bike. That doesn't mean I'm going to jump on a blade and thrash it down the road, and if I did get on a sports bike I would treat it as such.
The same can be said for the Elise. It is a proper sports car it should be considered as such. Unfortunately I feel that the lack of power actually has the wrong effect in that people believe they can floor it and be fine which is not true for the mid-engine setup. Perhaps more power would be a benefit so that drivers realise this.
Edited to reply to edit:
Agree that the base level should/can be low powered (but I do believ the 118bhp is really cr@p and not suitable for a car of this type see above) but at the moment there is no option for an official high powered version. Making it very expensive in both upgrades and insurance as "its no longer standard" throws a heavy weighting. I would love to see lotus make an Esprit replacement (I think GT1 style Elise would be perfect)
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 29th May 12:39
Toyota Power For New Elise
Some say that all the best stuff comes from America, but we've never had to thank the USA for a Lotus before. Exclusive spy shots in the current issue of Auto Expresss magazine confirm what we suggested back in issue 733 - the firm has shoe-horned a 190bhp Toyota engine into the Elise.
Tell-tale signs on this development car are mostly at the back, where blanking plates cover the standard model's pipe outlets, and a centre-mounted exhaust has appeared. The wheels also give the game away, with five-stud rear alloys borrowed from the VX220 Turbo, suggesting that the Vauxhall's beefier suspension has been adopted. The eight-spoke fronts are taken from the 111S, which forms this prototype's underpinnings.
So what's the American link? The Elise is to use a 2.2-litre VVTi Toyota engine and gearbox so it can be exported to the States without the need for expensive emissions tests. The powerplant is already on sale in America in the Camry. Lotus bosses are keen to return to the US market as soon as possible, since their only export - the Esprit - has been discontinued.
Of course, the Japanese-engined Elise will also go on sale in the UK, alongside the existing K-Series unit. However, it is likely to replace the track day-inspired Sport 190, which is peaky and impractical in daily motoring. The new model will also let Lotus catch up with Vauxhall's VX220 Turbo, which has raised the standard for stripped-out high-performance roadsters.
The engine was one of a number considered for the Elise. It was chosen over a larger 2.5-litre V6 Rover unit and Honda's 2.0 VTEC from the S2000, because these were seen as too expensive, big and heavy for the job. If the new Toyota-derived model is a success, the running gear is likely to be adopted across the range when a new Elise is launched in 2005. A concept which will reveal the replacement's styling is expected at next year's Geneva Motor Show.
Chris Thorp / Auto Express 27.05.2003
Some say that all the best stuff comes from America, but we've never had to thank the USA for a Lotus before. Exclusive spy shots in the current issue of Auto Expresss magazine confirm what we suggested back in issue 733 - the firm has shoe-horned a 190bhp Toyota engine into the Elise.
Tell-tale signs on this development car are mostly at the back, where blanking plates cover the standard model's pipe outlets, and a centre-mounted exhaust has appeared. The wheels also give the game away, with five-stud rear alloys borrowed from the VX220 Turbo, suggesting that the Vauxhall's beefier suspension has been adopted. The eight-spoke fronts are taken from the 111S, which forms this prototype's underpinnings.
So what's the American link? The Elise is to use a 2.2-litre VVTi Toyota engine and gearbox so it can be exported to the States without the need for expensive emissions tests. The powerplant is already on sale in America in the Camry. Lotus bosses are keen to return to the US market as soon as possible, since their only export - the Esprit - has been discontinued.
Of course, the Japanese-engined Elise will also go on sale in the UK, alongside the existing K-Series unit. However, it is likely to replace the track day-inspired Sport 190, which is peaky and impractical in daily motoring. The new model will also let Lotus catch up with Vauxhall's VX220 Turbo, which has raised the standard for stripped-out high-performance roadsters.
The engine was one of a number considered for the Elise. It was chosen over a larger 2.5-litre V6 Rover unit and Honda's 2.0 VTEC from the S2000, because these were seen as too expensive, big and heavy for the job. If the new Toyota-derived model is a success, the running gear is likely to be adopted across the range when a new Elise is launched in 2005. A concept which will reveal the replacement's styling is expected at next year's Geneva Motor Show.
Chris Thorp / Auto Express 27.05.2003
Ariel wanted to export the Atom across to the States, and as the K series engine is out of the question they went for the Honda engine from the Civic Type R. 240hp as standard (jap spec!) It has a 6 speed box, and would fit in to the elise with little trouble. Revs to god knows what, and in my opinion much better than an opel engine!!!!
Come on Guys, are you seriously telling me you are happy with the Elise's power, Having VW Passats and Audi TDi's flying past you on the motorway is embarrasing, what type of serious sportscar runs out of steam at 120 - 130mph, sure its a great handling car, low fuel economy,great looks (Rubbish K series enginge! HGF anyone??) but the likes of Civic Type R,s and Clio 172's are alot faster, like or not and they are not even considered sports cars and trust me guys the new breed of Peugot GTi's are great handlers,dont even try to take on a Boxter or S2000, it will leave the Elise for Dead, Every Time. You will notice performance cars are starting to get qouted with there 0-100mph times, not 0-60 times, wake up and smell the Coffee guys, we need this new Engine with hopefully alot more top end power.
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