Discussion
Well had my S1 test drive on Saturday at Bell + Collvill.
I have been on a few corporate days before and have driven the Elise round tracks a few times at immense enjoyment, but this was the first time I have driven the Elise over public roads.
I was amazed how settled and fun it was on ordinary roads, most of the car magazine reviews say it is full of bumps and rattles, I agree there is a little bit of bump steer with the car being so light but it was mostly fine - the same as any other sports car with firm suspension.
The Bell+Collvill bloke had obviously practised his test route many times as he went round two or three bends at full pelt, which had me looking for the footbrake on the passenger side, I had forgotten how great the handling was!
Definately going to buy one now, off to the classifieds!
I have been on a few corporate days before and have driven the Elise round tracks a few times at immense enjoyment, but this was the first time I have driven the Elise over public roads.
I was amazed how settled and fun it was on ordinary roads, most of the car magazine reviews say it is full of bumps and rattles, I agree there is a little bit of bump steer with the car being so light but it was mostly fine - the same as any other sports car with firm suspension.
The Bell+Collvill bloke had obviously practised his test route many times as he went round two or three bends at full pelt, which had me looking for the footbrake on the passenger side, I had forgotten how great the handling was!
Definately going to buy one now, off to the classifieds!
Just an add on chaps.
Most will know that I recently written my S2 off!!
Shortly my insurance company will be paying me out, but depending on the final value agreed I may not be able to afford another S2. So the question goes like this.
I have been looking at the VX220 and S2000, both of which are great but I seem to attached to the Lotus brand. What S1 would you recommend i.e 111's / 135 sport or a Bell Collville conversion ( of what i have never heard of?)
14-16k is the price bracket, which one would you choose and further more will it be as much fun as my S2 ( 135bhp )
>> Edited by spining-v-grid on Monday 14th April 16:53
Most will know that I recently written my S2 off!!
Shortly my insurance company will be paying me out, but depending on the final value agreed I may not be able to afford another S2. So the question goes like this.
I have been looking at the VX220 and S2000, both of which are great but I seem to attached to the Lotus brand. What S1 would you recommend i.e 111's / 135 sport or a Bell Collville conversion ( of what i have never heard of?)
14-16k is the price bracket, which one would you choose and further more will it be as much fun as my S2 ( 135bhp )
>> Edited by spining-v-grid on Monday 14th April 16:53
Ooh, 16k will buy you a well looked after, and nicely upgraded S1. I'd go for a 111S - but I'm biased of course! The S1 Sport 135 is as good or better if you can get one, but may be harder to insure than a 111S because of the "Sport" bit!
S2000 seems to have as much of a reputation for spinning as the Elise now (IMHO), so you might as well stick with a Lotus, good on ya! Glad you're not leaving us so soon!
Edited to say OF COURSE it'll be as much fun as your S2!
>> Edited by Bonce (moderator) on Monday 14th April 16:59
S2000 seems to have as much of a reputation for spinning as the Elise now (IMHO), so you might as well stick with a Lotus, good on ya! Glad you're not leaving us so soon!
Edited to say OF COURSE it'll be as much fun as your S2!
>> Edited by Bonce (moderator) on Monday 14th April 16:59
spining-v-grid said: Just an add on chaps.
Most will know that I recently written my S2 off!!
Shortly my insurance company will be paying me out, but depending on the final value agreed I may not be able to afford another S2. So the question goes like this.
I have been looking at the VX220 and S2000, both of which are great but I seem to attached to the Lotus brand. What S1 would you recommend i.e 111's / 135 sport or a Bell Collville conversion ( of what i have never heard of?)
14-16k is the price bracket, which one would you choose and further more will it be as much fun as my S2 ( 135bhp )
>> Edited by spining-v-grid on Monday 14th April 16:53
Hang on a minute. You were fully comp, of course? Your excess was so and so. So why can't you afford an S2? If your Insurance Co. won't give you a settlement that allows you to purchase a car of comparable standard to the insured one then they're not much of an insurance company.
NAME AND SHAME!
Don said: Hang on a minute. You were fully comp, of course? Your excess was so and so. So why can't you afford an S2? If your Insurance Co. won't give you a settlement that allows you to purchase a car of comparable standard to the insured one then they're not much of an insurance company.
Happens a lot. with specialist cars and one that have a value beyond the book as it were.
Special editions like the 72,49 etc can all suffer like this as glass's/parkers etc have them listed like a bog standard model.
Also you can have problems with the finance company etc but I've never quite worked out why.
This is where GAP insurance could come in.
Thats true,
I have had an up hill battle trying to get more cash out of them. A letter from my local dealer explaining the car is worth X amount more and info on numerous ad clippings showing them the facts has had little effect
The insurance companies use either glasses or cap, neither of which have much experience on these type of vehicles. They basically mold the figures from auction prices. Handy to know!!
It doesn't help when I had to pay my policy up in one lump some either, £1300 ! so that's why my S2 is now out of reach.
What are the Bell Colville conversions like, 160bhp sounds like decent power and what are the key differences between the S1 & S2?
SVG
I have had an up hill battle trying to get more cash out of them. A letter from my local dealer explaining the car is worth X amount more and info on numerous ad clippings showing them the facts has had little effect
The insurance companies use either glasses or cap, neither of which have much experience on these type of vehicles. They basically mold the figures from auction prices. Handy to know!!
It doesn't help when I had to pay my policy up in one lump some either, £1300 ! so that's why my S2 is now out of reach.
What are the Bell Colville conversions like, 160bhp sounds like decent power and what are the key differences between the S1 & S2?
SVG
Look and read through the contract with the insurance company if you can find anything that would say they would need to give you a vehicle of the same standard or give you the money neccesary anything about specialist cars, models its worth a try because if they dishounour the agreement you can contact watchdog its worth a try
We have been here before.
Insurance companies use your ignorance of the law to save money
To quote the definition of "indemnity"
Indemnity - The basic principle of insurance. The payment that people receive after a mishap leaves them in the same financial position as they were before they suffered the loss.
To quote from www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=26395 which was about this so-called "gap insurance"
"Actually - it is a complete waste of money. Insurance is based on a principle of indemnity, which means that policyholders are put in the same financial position after a loss as they were immediately before it. It's not your issue how the insurance company does that - it's theirs.
Consequently the advice given to me (by an actuary) is that GAP insurance is a "spin", as all you need to do is ask that the insurance company find you the same spec car, purchase it, and then assign it back to the finance company whereupon the payments continue.
It's meant to be a right faff - and not many people argue and so the companies get away with charging large amounts of money "
The principle of indemnity dates back, in case law, to 1881 (*yes* 1881) and earlier.
The No Profit Rule
The first aspect of subrogation renders the insured liable to repay the insurer if he makes a profit from his loss:
In both Rayner v Preston (1881) 18 Ch D 1 and Castellain v Preston (1883) 11 QBD 380 the principle of indemnity (and over payment) was laid down. It basically states that The insured must be fully indemnified before he starts to profit, but this means indemnity according to the terms of the insurance, so that account must be taken of any provisions regarding excesses and of the sum insured.
The same principle was nicely summarised (although this has since been expanded on) by (Brett, L. J. in Castellain v. Preston (1883)) where Brett stated "The very foundation, in my opinion, of every rule which has been applied to insurance law is this,
namely that the contract of insurance ... is a contract of indemnity and of indemnity only ... and if ever a proposition is brought forward which is at variance with it, that is to say, which either will prevent the assured from obtaining a full indemnity or which gives the assured more than a full indemnity,
that proposition must certainly be wrong."
So - minus any excess, upto the "agreed sum insured" (which would have been provided up to you) you are entitled to be placed back into the *same* financial position.
So - the easiest way to generally get insurance companies to relent is to say "fine - I deem that the amount offered is insufficient to purchase on the open market a [insert full car spec here, including colour, age, condition, options etc.]. If you wish to insist that the value offered is able to purchase such a car, then I authorise you to make said purchase on my behalf. I await your notification that you have sourced a replacement car to the same specification, and upon payment of the excess, I will accept this as full and final settlement of the legal principle of indemnity that I entered into a contract with yourselves upon commencement of the insurance policy - ref [insert ref here] or similar.
Note - it is of no concern to you *how* the insurers indemnify you of the loss, merely that that is their legal obligation and they have to do it at their expense.
Finally check out the IOB's web site definitions at www.theiob.org.uk/digest/i/indemnity.html - illuminating stuff
J
Insurance companies use your ignorance of the law to save money To quote the definition of "indemnity"
Indemnity - The basic principle of insurance. The payment that people receive after a mishap leaves them in the same financial position as they were before they suffered the loss.
To quote from www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=26395 which was about this so-called "gap insurance"
"Actually - it is a complete waste of money. Insurance is based on a principle of indemnity, which means that policyholders are put in the same financial position after a loss as they were immediately before it. It's not your issue how the insurance company does that - it's theirs.
Consequently the advice given to me (by an actuary) is that GAP insurance is a "spin", as all you need to do is ask that the insurance company find you the same spec car, purchase it, and then assign it back to the finance company whereupon the payments continue.
It's meant to be a right faff - and not many people argue and so the companies get away with charging large amounts of money "
The principle of indemnity dates back, in case law, to 1881 (*yes* 1881) and earlier.
The No Profit Rule
The first aspect of subrogation renders the insured liable to repay the insurer if he makes a profit from his loss:
In both Rayner v Preston (1881) 18 Ch D 1 and Castellain v Preston (1883) 11 QBD 380 the principle of indemnity (and over payment) was laid down. It basically states that The insured must be fully indemnified before he starts to profit, but this means indemnity according to the terms of the insurance, so that account must be taken of any provisions regarding excesses and of the sum insured.
The same principle was nicely summarised (although this has since been expanded on) by (Brett, L. J. in Castellain v. Preston (1883)) where Brett stated "The very foundation, in my opinion, of every rule which has been applied to insurance law is this,
namely that the contract of insurance ... is a contract of indemnity and of indemnity only ... and if ever a proposition is brought forward which is at variance with it, that is to say, which either will prevent the assured from obtaining a full indemnity or which gives the assured more than a full indemnity,
that proposition must certainly be wrong."
So - minus any excess, upto the "agreed sum insured" (which would have been provided up to you) you are entitled to be placed back into the *same* financial position.
So - the easiest way to generally get insurance companies to relent is to say "fine - I deem that the amount offered is insufficient to purchase on the open market a [insert full car spec here, including colour, age, condition, options etc.]. If you wish to insist that the value offered is able to purchase such a car, then I authorise you to make said purchase on my behalf. I await your notification that you have sourced a replacement car to the same specification, and upon payment of the excess, I will accept this as full and final settlement of the legal principle of indemnity that I entered into a contract with yourselves upon commencement of the insurance policy - ref [insert ref here] or similar.
Note - it is of no concern to you *how* the insurers indemnify you of the loss, merely that that is their legal obligation and they have to do it at their expense.
Finally check out the IOB's web site definitions at www.theiob.org.uk/digest/i/indemnity.html - illuminating stuff
J
Bad news on the insurance company mate but glad to see you are getting another Elise.
I ummed and ahhd over taking out GAP Insurance when I bought my S1 a couple of months ago but glad I did now. As the salesman said to me "at the end of the day it's a fast sports car and people do crash them, take a look in our yard at the back of the showroom" Quite a few dinged cars parked there.
I ummed and ahhd over taking out GAP Insurance when I bought my S1 a couple of months ago but glad I did now. As the salesman said to me "at the end of the day it's a fast sports car and people do crash them, take a look in our yard at the back of the showroom" Quite a few dinged cars parked there.
spinning also there have been lots of threads in general gassing on this type of issue. They are meant to replace like for like, so worse case you can say fine, get me an Elise with same spec as mine as I can't find one for your offer price. Search general gassing for the more legal explanation of the above (which also explains why gap insurance is pointless). Thread was in the last week or two, and may have had a title to do with Gap.
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