Emergency Stops in an S2
Discussion
Has anyone been shocked by the lack of stopping power with their Elise S2?
Having previously been a proud owner of an S1 and having done track days in both the S1 and S2, I have good experience with the Elise handling.
I remember that it used to take a couple of miles before the P-Zeros on the S1 'warmed up'. The same is more than true for the Bridgestones on the S2.
In my opinion, normal everyday driving in my S2 does not bring the brakes up to a suitable working temperature. If an emergency stop is called for, the braking distance is greater than almost every other car I have driven.
I find myself testing/warming the brakes before every corner, and this takes some of the pleasure out of driving.
When the brakes are warmed up they become acceptable, but stopping distances are never as shockingly good as they were in the S1. Try it for yourself - take your S2 out of the garage, go half a mile and try an emergency stop!
If I fitted wider front tyres then I would loose the handling balance. Tales of understeer with the S2 are exagerated and are not an issue when you are 'at one' with the car.
Does anyone out there have similar feelings, or is my car misbehaving? My dealer has commented that my brakes are working as they would expect...
Having previously been a proud owner of an S1 and having done track days in both the S1 and S2, I have good experience with the Elise handling.
I remember that it used to take a couple of miles before the P-Zeros on the S1 'warmed up'. The same is more than true for the Bridgestones on the S2.
In my opinion, normal everyday driving in my S2 does not bring the brakes up to a suitable working temperature. If an emergency stop is called for, the braking distance is greater than almost every other car I have driven.
I find myself testing/warming the brakes before every corner, and this takes some of the pleasure out of driving.
When the brakes are warmed up they become acceptable, but stopping distances are never as shockingly good as they were in the S1. Try it for yourself - take your S2 out of the garage, go half a mile and try an emergency stop!
If I fitted wider front tyres then I would loose the handling balance. Tales of understeer with the S2 are exagerated and are not an issue when you are 'at one' with the car.
Does anyone out there have similar feelings, or is my car misbehaving? My dealer has commented that my brakes are working as they would expect...
i personally find my s2 weak in that area, although it may be due to my lack of driving technique.
i have found myself failing to dump speed quickly enough, braking harder and then locking up on more than one occasion.
of course cadence (sp?) braking will help stop the car quicker than overbraking and entering a slide, but human inputs will never be able to match to an abs system esp. in an emergency situation where first reaction is to jump on the pedal.
tupolev
>> Edited by tupolev on Friday 7th February 23:44
i have found myself failing to dump speed quickly enough, braking harder and then locking up on more than one occasion.
of course cadence (sp?) braking will help stop the car quicker than overbraking and entering a slide, but human inputs will never be able to match to an abs system esp. in an emergency situation where first reaction is to jump on the pedal.
tupolev
>> Edited by tupolev on Friday 7th February 23:44
Late last year a did a day with 1st Lotus, when it came to doing the brake testing, the instructor said just watch the difference between a S1 and S2 breaking.
From the same break point at identical speeds we were stopping at least 10/15ft ahead of the S2, the reason in his eyes being the wider front tyres on the S1, now I am not sure if he is correct, but does the S2 run 185's compared to 195's on the S1? (mine did have the Advans on).
PC
From the same break point at identical speeds we were stopping at least 10/15ft ahead of the S2, the reason in his eyes being the wider front tyres on the S1, now I am not sure if he is correct, but does the S2 run 185's compared to 195's on the S1? (mine did have the Advans on).
PC
Felix7 said:
From the same break point at identical speeds we were stopping at least 10/15ft ahead of the S2, the reason in his eyes being the wider front tyres on the S1, now I am not sure if he is correct, but does the S2 run 185's compared to 195's on the S1? (mine did have the Advans on).
PC
Front: 5.5" x 16" wheels with Lotus developed Bridgestone V rated 175/55 R16 tyres.
your comment seems reasonable, a lighter car with wider tyres/more grip at the front should be able to stop quicker.
if they are making the s3 heavier again, then they are going to have to have a serious look at this or throw in some electronics.
tupolev
In my opinion, normal everyday driving in my S2 does not bring the brakes up to a suitable working temperature. If an emergency stop is called for, the braking distance is greater than almost every other car I have driven.
They shouldn't be that bad. They figured stopping distances in a car mag a while back and the Elise did very well except for them saying how one needed decent technique to pull it off.
I've been very happy with breaking ability a couple of times when I thought I was in deep shit.
If you've been doing it recently though, then its been bloody cold and slippery so I can imagine it wouldn't be that sharp.
Anyone else find they have to really concentrate to not put the passenger through the windscreen when they get back into a overly servoed normal car?
The pads are quite prone to how you bed them in. Have you tried following Nick Adams instructions of the OLC BBS for bedding in the new pads etc from new? I did this when I was running the car in and have never had a problem. As commented below though I have had the demo at North Weald too with Andy driving an S1 re stopping distance...with an expert driver the S1 could stop around a car length earlier than an S2....either way both are quick stoppers and on par with most high performance cars that have ABS/TCD/EBD and such like.
Thanks for all your comments.
I think the narrower front tyres must be the cause. It's just that the S2's discs are vented and cross-drilled and really look the part, but the overall result is less stopping power.
I ran the pads in the same as I did on my S1. I did notice on the S1 that after a couple of laps at a trackday, the brakes tended to become slightly less effective - the first two laps would always be the quickest. With the S2 it is different, braking performance improves after a couple of laps.
My original comment was to highlight what I thought was a definate 'cooling off' problem, as braking performance is marketly increased when they are being used hard all of the time.
...keep off those slippery bits, eh?
I think the narrower front tyres must be the cause. It's just that the S2's discs are vented and cross-drilled and really look the part, but the overall result is less stopping power.
I ran the pads in the same as I did on my S1. I did notice on the S1 that after a couple of laps at a trackday, the brakes tended to become slightly less effective - the first two laps would always be the quickest. With the S2 it is different, braking performance improves after a couple of laps.
My original comment was to highlight what I thought was a definate 'cooling off' problem, as braking performance is marketly increased when they are being used hard all of the time.
...keep off those slippery bits, eh?
Tyre size/grip issues aside, I've also notice the problem posted below. Currently I use my partners S1 with the Metal Matrix breaks and my S2.
I agree that most of the time it is not possible to get enough heat into the S2 breaks under normal congested road conditions. I find on the way to the station in the morning that there is very little bite and frequently find myself late breaking (when trying to drive smoothly with passenger). The pressure required to get a descent deceleration is way too high, although to be fair they are very linear and easy to control. I've done 5k miles and there is normally plenty of black dust all over the wheels.
The S1 breaks on the other hand are much more confidence inspiring with instant stopping power and only normal pressure required. Only on a handful of occasions in very wet and cold conditions have I felt the breaks not gripping hard. Plus no break dust with the clever aluminium ceramic discs.
Does anybody else have the problem with the S2 discs turning rusty brown (on the friction surface) within 2 days? And does anybody find the rear breaks stuck to the disc when the hand break is released. Dealer says "oh they all do that sir" but don't believe him.
Can the S2 breaks be improved with different pads? What is the best compromise for road with occasionally track use?
I think the subject of tyre grip is a lot more complicated then just width - the tread, tyre diameter, compound, carcass rigidity, pressure and road surface all make a lot of difference. For example the difference between the S1s originally supplied Pzeros and the Advans is massive especially in the wet.
I agree that most of the time it is not possible to get enough heat into the S2 breaks under normal congested road conditions. I find on the way to the station in the morning that there is very little bite and frequently find myself late breaking (when trying to drive smoothly with passenger). The pressure required to get a descent deceleration is way too high, although to be fair they are very linear and easy to control. I've done 5k miles and there is normally plenty of black dust all over the wheels.
The S1 breaks on the other hand are much more confidence inspiring with instant stopping power and only normal pressure required. Only on a handful of occasions in very wet and cold conditions have I felt the breaks not gripping hard. Plus no break dust with the clever aluminium ceramic discs.
Does anybody else have the problem with the S2 discs turning rusty brown (on the friction surface) within 2 days? And does anybody find the rear breaks stuck to the disc when the hand break is released. Dealer says "oh they all do that sir" but don't believe him.
Can the S2 breaks be improved with different pads? What is the best compromise for road with occasionally track use?
I think the subject of tyre grip is a lot more complicated then just width - the tread, tyre diameter, compound, carcass rigidity, pressure and road surface all make a lot of difference. For example the difference between the S1s originally supplied Pzeros and the Advans is massive especially in the wet.
MilesForrest said:Does anybody else have the problem with the S2 discs turning rusty brown (on the friction surface) within 2 days?
Exposed metal rusts.. Simple as that. Especially if they are not completely dry or rain spatters onto the discs when it's parked.
Road salt during winter doesn't make it get any better either.
And does anybody find the rear breaks stuck to the disc when the hand break is released.
Absolutely normal.
Actually, if you park the car wet then you'll find that the front brakes stick too.
A fine corrosion layer 'fuses' the pads to the disc.
To minimise the effect you should park in gear and leave the handbrake off.
Can the S2 breaks be improved with different pads? What is the best compromise for road with occasionally track use?
Pagid RS4-2 is the answer for road and occasional track use. RS14 for more spirited track use, but beware that they can squeel quite a bit under normal use.
They are not cheap (about 180 to 190 pounds ex. VAT for a set), but last long.
On the other hand you could ask your dealer for the price of a full set normal S2 pads. Shocking price too and doesn't make the Pagid's look too badly.
Bye, Arno.
to echo arno - absolutely do not use the handbrake unless on a slope, especially after a decent run & even more especially after a decent run in winter - just leave the car in gear.
otherwise the next time you move the car you'll get a horrendous groaning/squealing noise as the pads & disks separate from each other.
iirc disks have been known to warp because of this..
nick
s1 111s
otherwise the next time you move the car you'll get a horrendous groaning/squealing noise as the pads & disks separate from each other.
iirc disks have been known to warp because of this..
nick
s1 111s
Thanks guys,
I do leave it in gear as well as I have to park it on a slope as the girlfriends got her slightly leaky S1 in the garage. Plus I do let the discs cool before applying the parking break.
I was just wondering why the S2 Elise breaks are so different from every other car I've had experience of. I've only ever had rust after a few weeks of being parked up. I've never had pads bind to the discs with hours. Is there something odd about the materials used? If the manual stated don't use the parking break when parked I would accept it. My friend called the AA out the other day as his were locked on so tight from being left overnight he couldn't move the car.
Do the Pagid RS4-2 exhibit similar binding problems?
Thanks
I do leave it in gear as well as I have to park it on a slope as the girlfriends got her slightly leaky S1 in the garage. Plus I do let the discs cool before applying the parking break.
I was just wondering why the S2 Elise breaks are so different from every other car I've had experience of. I've only ever had rust after a few weeks of being parked up. I've never had pads bind to the discs with hours. Is there something odd about the materials used? If the manual stated don't use the parking break when parked I would accept it. My friend called the AA out the other day as his were locked on so tight from being left overnight he couldn't move the car.
Do the Pagid RS4-2 exhibit similar binding problems?
Thanks
Wider front tyres are NOT the answer in my opinion, for the simple reason when I break hard with my s2 its always the rear that blocks first ! I think that Lotus has to put more brake force to the front with a hydraulic pressure regulator as you can see in a rally car. It is true that you have to put some heat in the disks, especially in wet conditions. I drive non drillid disks, perhaps this makes it worse in the wet, but they perform well in dry conditions. If you come out of a saloon with servo assited brakes you have to switch to elise-mode : hit the brakes every time you can !
Also if your rears are locking first make sure you are not instinctively dipping the clutch (as you were taught on your driving test)I tried emergency stops on a 1st Lotus day - clutch in then rears locked, clutch out until car stopped, no locking and knocked a car length of stopping distance. Took about 5 goes to get it perfect :-)
From my experience with the Elise (S1) the rears generally lock up first under hard braking due to the weight transfer to the front of the car.
That would imply the opposite of what you said bert - seeing as the rears lock up first, the fronts are doing all the work, so increasing their size will increase stopping power.
It's also the experience with the Elise that has persuaded me to put a brake bias adjustment into the kit car I'm building to replace my Elise. I guess you could mimic that sort of adjustment by tweaking your tyre pressures, but that would probably compromise handling elsewhere. Do make sure they're at the right pressure though, as an Elise on over inflated tyres is like driving on marbles!
Cheers,
Will
That would imply the opposite of what you said bert - seeing as the rears lock up first, the fronts are doing all the work, so increasing their size will increase stopping power.
It's also the experience with the Elise that has persuaded me to put a brake bias adjustment into the kit car I'm building to replace my Elise. I guess you could mimic that sort of adjustment by tweaking your tyre pressures, but that would probably compromise handling elsewhere. Do make sure they're at the right pressure though, as an Elise on over inflated tyres is like driving on marbles!
Cheers,
Will
Every Driver is different as these are performace cars which are used in the most for fun anything that could hinder that should be removed.If you find putting wider tyres or better brakes is the answer then do it because it may hinder your fun till your confident with all aspects of the car.
>> Edited by hungryjim on Friday 14th February 22:08
>> Edited by hungryjim on Friday 14th February 22:08
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