RE: Toyota V6 for Elise?
Thursday 28th November 2002
Toyota V6 for Elise?
That's what AutoExpress reckon
Discussion
"195bhp is easily possible from a four-pot so a V6 seems an unlikely choice in our books. "
Can't say I agree here. If the V6 has plenty of torque, passes emissions tests, is inexpensive and has a reliable supply stream, then it may well be worth the effort, from a business point of view. Add to that the risk of increased warranty claims with high-tuned four cylinder engines ant it seems to make good sense.
Can't say I agree here. If the V6 has plenty of torque, passes emissions tests, is inexpensive and has a reliable supply stream, then it may well be worth the effort, from a business point of view. Add to that the risk of increased warranty claims with high-tuned four cylinder engines ant it seems to make good sense.
A V6 is shorter than an I4, so in a transverse mounting such as with the Elise, I would think a V6 would not present any real packaging problems. At least lengthways it is shorter, all the bulk would be width which seems to be ok in a transverse, mid engine ....
You know what configuration car doesn't exist - longitudinal, mid engine, 6 cylinder.
You know what configuration car doesn't exist - longitudinal, mid engine, 6 cylinder.
I'm not sure that unit is the BEST choice, but it would be one of the better ones I've heard.
Stock Toyota engines tend to last forever and a day on minimal maintenance. I don't much like their handling or styling, trim and whatnot but they have some amazingly hardy engines.
That motor could also be tuned to about 220hp later on without even breaking a sweat or emission law.
If it were me though, I'd be inclined to look at the mazda MZR four pot currently in the Mazda 6.
Stock Toyota engines tend to last forever and a day on minimal maintenance. I don't much like their handling or styling, trim and whatnot but they have some amazingly hardy engines.
That motor could also be tuned to about 220hp later on without even breaking a sweat or emission law.
If it were me though, I'd be inclined to look at the mazda MZR four pot currently in the Mazda 6.
Lotus has made a bad selection in # of pistons before. The Esprit was envisioned as an 8 cylinder car. It had to do with a 4 banger - forced by the oil crisis - until it became a senior citizen. The Esprit would definetely had better sales numbers if only it had a V6.
I really hope the V6-rumour for the Elise is correct. Let's put it this way: name me one serious sportscar that has has only 4 pots. The slow sales in the MR2 proofs something. The S2000 is still not envisioned as a real competitor against the Z4 and Boxter.
I really hope the V6-rumour for the Elise is correct. Let's put it this way: name me one serious sportscar that has has only 4 pots. The slow sales in the MR2 proofs something. The S2000 is still not envisioned as a real competitor against the Z4 and Boxter.
paulnederland said: Lotus has made a bad selection in # of pistons before. The Esprit was envisioned as an 8 cylinder car. It had to do with a 4 banger - forced by the oil crisis - until it became a senior citizen. The Esprit would definetely had better sales numbers if only it had a V6.
I really hope the V6-rumour for the Elise is correct. Let's put it this way: name me one serious sportscar that has has only 4 pots. The slow sales in the MR2 proofs something. The S2000 is still not envisioned as a real competitor against the Z4 and Boxter.
I COMPLETELY disagree. Lotus has never had a bad call as far as cylinder count goes. The only reason they put a V8 into the Esprit seems to have been for marketing purposes. For some people, four cylinder just isn't enough in a sports-car, regardless of how much power it makes.
To the best of my recollection, Lotus has never made a 6 cylinder car in their entire history. They've always had a thing for 4-pot engines and shown the world that they can extract bags of power. Any moron can build a big displacement engine and/or one with a lot of cylinders and get big power. It takes the brains and finesse to pull more than 300bhp from a 2.2L 4-pot as Lotus did with the Elise S4S. Getting a quart out of a pint pot indeed.
I'm not surprised they're looking for more power for the Elise though. The little beauty is a joy to drive but it could definitely use a bit more grunt. In a car as ligh as the Elise, there's no reason not to shoot for a sub-4 sec 0-60. Personally, I suspect they used the Rover K engine because it was cheap and available.
What surprises me is that they're looking at a V6. Nissan makes some absolutely cracking 4-pots (they made a 2.4 that was an absolute stunner) that with some judicious tweaking from Lotus could surely put out in excess of 300bhp. Toyota and Honda do almost as well. Plus, with far-east engineering precision, they should be close to bulletproof.
You want a big engine? There are plenty of cars out there from which to choose. Ferrari and Lamborghini, TVR, Jaguar, Aston Martin, etc...
Lotus has a long and proud history of small but fabulous engines. The Esprit V8 was a fluke.
I've got an S2000 and I used to have an elise. The engine in the elise (or lack of one) is why I couldn't stand it anymore and had to sell it. It was more crude and astmatic than my old Fiat Panda (and that's saying something!). The S2000's ultra-compact 2000cc engine would be a perfect choice. It's light, very powerful and comes with a 90,000 mile, 3yr warranty and revs to 9000rpm. It is also mated to the best manual gearbox I've ever driven. I think the resultant car would be finally worthy of the "awesome" tag that's (all too often) liberally applied to the Elise. To say the S2000 is rare because its a bad car is rubbish. Its rare because it falls into a market sector that that would rather buy by badge than ability (Z3 is a prime example). The S2000 is not comparable to the Boxter because the latter costs 15K more than the S2000 for the same performance and therefore ought to be a lot better!
gilese said: I've got an S2000 and I used to have an elise. The engine in the elise (or lack of one) is why I couldn't stand it anymore and had to sell it. It was more crude and astmatic than my old Fiat Panda (and that's saying something!). To say the S2000 is rare because its a bad car is rubbish. Its rare because it falls into a market sector that that would rather buy by badge than ability (Z3 is a prime example). The S2000 is not comparable to the Boxter because the latter costs 15K more than the S2000 for the same performance and therefore ought to be a lot better!
The S2000 is a rare car because
1) Its only 4 grand cheaper than a Boxter
2) Its a Honda not a Porsche
3) It does not hold its value like the porsche
4) It does not hold the roadlike the porsche
5) Becuase its got no torque its probably slower than a standard boxster over most roads
6) Its less of an experience than the mid engined Boxster
I like the S2000 and would buy one over a Boxster as its a bit more manly and a bit different, but be realistic would it be outsold 30:1 if it was as good?
Bennno
If you think that they should put a Honda engine in the Elise, then why not pick a decent one? The S2000 engine is not enough more powerful than a Blackbird engine to make up for the fact that it weighs more, doesn't rev as well, and is bigger.
Or what about 2 fireblade engines?
Don't get me wrong, the S2000 engine isn't bad, but compared to what Honda can do when they really try, it just isn't that great.
Or what about 2 fireblade engines?
Don't get me wrong, the S2000 engine isn't bad, but compared to what Honda can do when they really try, it just isn't that great.
a toyota V6 ,for god sake,
a 3 liter with only 195 bhp...even Volvo gets 170 bhp out of 2.5 l...
No, in the Lotus spirit it should be a small and light engine, and if it needs to go very fast put a turbo on it. In the past Lotus went shoping by Renault... Hmm the clio 16V engine is great and fast and was also in the renault spider !
But if it had to be a 3liter V6 engine it should go for the alfa 3.2 V6 engine : very light (all aluminium) powerfull (250 bhp) lots of torque (300 Nm)and perhaps most important THE SOUND
and after all, its already been done in a s1 !
a 3 liter with only 195 bhp...even Volvo gets 170 bhp out of 2.5 l... No, in the Lotus spirit it should be a small and light engine, and if it needs to go very fast put a turbo on it. In the past Lotus went shoping by Renault... Hmm the clio 16V engine is great and fast and was also in the renault spider !
But if it had to be a 3liter V6 engine it should go for the alfa 3.2 V6 engine : very light (all aluminium) powerfull (250 bhp) lots of torque (300 Nm)and perhaps most important THE SOUND
and after all, its already been done in a s1 !
bennno said:
gilese said: I've got an S2000 and I used to have an elise. The engine in the elise (or lack of one) is why I couldn't stand it anymore and had to sell it. It was more crude and astmatic than my old Fiat Panda (and that's saying something!). To say the S2000 is rare because its a bad car is rubbish. Its rare because it falls into a market sector that that would rather buy by badge than ability (Z3 is a prime example). The S2000 is not comparable to the Boxter because the latter costs 15K more than the S2000 for the same performance and therefore ought to be a lot better!
The S2000 is a rare car because
1) Its only 4 grand cheaper than a Boxter
2) Its a Honda not a Porsche
3) It does not hold its value like the porsche
4) It does not hold the roadlike the porsche
5) Becuase its got no torque its probably slower than a standard boxster over most roads
6) Its less of an experience than the mid engined Boxster
I like the S2000 and would buy one over a Boxster as its a bit more manly and a bit different, but be realistic would it be outsold 30:1 if it was as good?
Bennno
1. Only 4 grand cheaper? You mean a stripped out 2.7?
2. It is a Honda, not a Porsche? Spoken like a true badge snob. Give me a break.
3. Doesn't hold its value? Check the ads, I see cars with several thousand miles on the clock going for nearly full retail.
4. Doesn't hold the road? It does fine. It is no Elise, but then neither is the Boxter.
5. No torque? Give the gearing of the rear end, it does just fine.
6. Less of an "experience"? Spare me. I've driven a Boxter. It is the Apple Macintosh of sports cars. A car for people who (like the ones who buy Z3s) don't really want a sports car but prefer something that just looks like one. You want an "experience", take the price of the 3.2L Boxter and go shopping at your TVR dealer. Or take the ten grand you'd save buying an Elise and have the Lotus modded.
BTW, the Boxter isn't really a true "mid-engine" car because the engine isn't at the car's COG. It is slightly to the rear. In the Honda, it is slightly to the front. The effect on the polar moment of intertia is essentially the same.
It is the Apple Macintosh of sports cars.
What it's faster, more reliable and better than the other cars?
What a terrible analogy, Apple Mactintoshes are good computers. I use a PC because of my work (ie my customers use PCs) In fact if it wasn't for the problems people have with PCs I wouldn't have much of a job
I think you're falling into the trap that a sports car must be unreliable, not true. Not everybody wants a car thats out and out power or a "race car for the road" they want a sports car which is comfortable, reliable, looks good and quick. The boxter is all of these things, a cracking car all round.
>> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 3rd December 11:42
smeagol said:
It is the Apple Macintosh of sports cars.
What it's faster, more reliable and better than the other cars?
What a terrible analogy, Apple Mactintoshes are good computers. I use a PC because of my work (ie my customers use PCs) In fact if it wasn't for the problems people have with PCs I wouldn't have much of a job
I think you're falling into the trap that a sports car must be unreliable, not true. Not everybody wants a car thats out and out power or a "race car for the road" they want a sports car which is comfortable, reliable, looks good and quick. The boxter is all of these things, a cracking car all round.
>> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 3rd December 11:42
*Must* be unreliable? Of course not. However, No car is perfect (not even Porsches or Hondas). The questions isn't whether or not you'll settle for "quirks" but how many and what sort.
I'm not saying the Boxter is a bad car. It obviously isn't. But it isn't a true sports car. It is a car for people who want to appear to be driving a sports car but don't want the challenge of actually doing it.
There is a good reason why true sports cars lack things like ABS, traction-control and things of that nature. People who don't understand (or agree with) them should stick to driving things like Boxters, Z3s and Mazda MX5s.
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