Toyota V6 for Elise?
Thursday 28th November 2002
Toyota V6 for Elise?
That's what AutoExpress reckon
Discussion
well it isn't just price. It is also to do with availability. Toyota also make there own sports cars - so to see their engine in a competitor car especially if it is being used to launch the car on the USA seems highly implausible to me. As are rumours of the honda engine, after all why put a s2000 engine in a better chassis 
Rover were happy to do it with the K - as they were fairly desperate for ANY income on their developments - and lets face it the MGF wasn't really in the same market space.
So ok money talks - but there are some engines money just can't buy.
Rover were happy to do it with the K - as they were fairly desperate for ANY income on their developments - and lets face it the MGF wasn't really in the same market space.
So ok money talks - but there are some engines money just can't buy.
I can see one sound reason (pardon the bad pun) for a V6 into an Elise - yes, the car goes well enough with the humble K-series, but does the soundtrack stir the emotion? I think not, and as much as I adore both Elise examples I've been fortunate enough to drive back then as a motoring journalist (S1 111S and S2 bog standard), I'd gladly trade some of that handling linearity (the edge of which you can only enjoy for a small part of the time on the road) for a bit more muscular rumble (which you can enjoy all of the time) en lieu of that anodyne K-series drone. Now I am still partial to getting myself something with a Rover V8 (be it a Westie, bargain basement Chimaera or all-out MGB conversion) instead, although I know the Elise is a superior car and a far better ownership prospect.
Maybe an Elise with 'six appeal' would be my ticket into having my cake and eat it...
Maybe an Elise with 'six appeal' would be my ticket into having my cake and eat it...
If only they fitted the "active noise" system to the damn thing it would sound like a V6 (or a V8, V10, V12, I4 or for the sickos out there an I6)
Yes, but then you'd know it was artificial, and as a result somehow get the feeling you are cheated on. We're not talking a rational thing here - otherwise we'd leave well enough alone and be satisfied with any kind of power unit as long as the thing went like stink, I guess...
As a first position waiting list member here in the US who has been following each development in the Elise S3, please allow me to insert a few thoughts. First, the car is due here in S3 version early in 2004 as a 2005. This schedule seems to match that which is being presented by Autoexpress regarding the new engine intro. Of course the car will need a new engine for the US market and up to this point it has been widely accepted here that the Toyota, and please take note here, 1.8 liter vvt-i engine from the Celica GTS would be used, possibly in conjunction with the SMG gearbox. This made sence since Toyota has no car to directly compete with the Elise here and the engine could be had cheaply enough. The transmission was a new twist from about a month ago but could be legit based on the pour sales of the MR2 Spyder and the need for the bean couters to earn back the money spent developing the SMG. Third, the front end will reportedly need to be redesigned in order to meet federal crash standards. With all these changes in mind, in addition to the other changes required to make the car marketable and meet federal requirements, the car will be designated S3.
I have been able to, on a limited basis, been able to discuss the S3 with officals from Lotuscars USA. They have stated that rumors of a 120hp engine were "way off". this helps to justify the toyota rumor. The Honda rumor was likely started by a firm here in the US called Sun International which has been marketing a "US Legal" Elise with Honda running gear for about 2 years. Their arguement could then be, why wait for a car from Lotus for 2-3 years when we can sell you one today.
Lotuscars USA has also said that, about 6 months ago, the car was being hot and cold weather tested and had run into a few snags. My guess is that this statement also covered the crash issues and led to the removal of the Rover K Engine and the S2 front end.
I would love to see a V6, but as already pointed out, there is no existing Toyota 2.5 unit. One could be under development for a boost to the Celica line but I can't think of any other application besides that and perhaps the RAV4 SUV. The V6 would certaintly make the car more competitive against the Boxter and Z4. A turbo 4 in the US would be considered unreliable and would place the Elise in a disadvantaged position. A rumor ran around the lotus community thanks to Autoweek a few weeks back regarding the GM ecotech 2.2 engine being a front runner. There was serious backlash from many perspective owners regarding the possibility of this engine. GM's unit would bring no reliability, poor performance and a link with econoboxes from Saturn, Pontiac and Chevrolet. It is well known that GM is developing a turbo variant of the motor but even so, it would be a horrible mistake for Lotus to use that unit.
My personal preferance would be a Ford 2.0 Zetech with SVT or Cosworth tuning or a Mazda 1.3 rotary from the RX-8. I have, however, resided to the fact that the selection from Hethel will be the toyota 1.8.
I have been able to, on a limited basis, been able to discuss the S3 with officals from Lotuscars USA. They have stated that rumors of a 120hp engine were "way off". this helps to justify the toyota rumor. The Honda rumor was likely started by a firm here in the US called Sun International which has been marketing a "US Legal" Elise with Honda running gear for about 2 years. Their arguement could then be, why wait for a car from Lotus for 2-3 years when we can sell you one today.
Lotuscars USA has also said that, about 6 months ago, the car was being hot and cold weather tested and had run into a few snags. My guess is that this statement also covered the crash issues and led to the removal of the Rover K Engine and the S2 front end.
I would love to see a V6, but as already pointed out, there is no existing Toyota 2.5 unit. One could be under development for a boost to the Celica line but I can't think of any other application besides that and perhaps the RAV4 SUV. The V6 would certaintly make the car more competitive against the Boxter and Z4. A turbo 4 in the US would be considered unreliable and would place the Elise in a disadvantaged position. A rumor ran around the lotus community thanks to Autoweek a few weeks back regarding the GM ecotech 2.2 engine being a front runner. There was serious backlash from many perspective owners regarding the possibility of this engine. GM's unit would bring no reliability, poor performance and a link with econoboxes from Saturn, Pontiac and Chevrolet. It is well known that GM is developing a turbo variant of the motor but even so, it would be a horrible mistake for Lotus to use that unit.
My personal preferance would be a Ford 2.0 Zetech with SVT or Cosworth tuning or a Mazda 1.3 rotary from the RX-8. I have, however, resided to the fact that the selection from Hethel will be the toyota 1.8.
I studied Active Noise Cancelling as part of the Acoustics module of the final year of my Physics degree. 
It was fascinating. 
Active Noise works on the principle that 1 + (-1) = 0. In other words, use microphones to pick up the ambient cabin noise, create a "mirror image" of the sound and then play it back through speakers. The "negative" sound then cancels out the ambient sound, making things quieter. You can also add extra sounds to the speakers to make the engine sound different, like a V8 for example.
This is a pretty simplistic explanation, but gets the gist of Active Noise across.
One problem is that, although the waveforms cause destructive interference (ie. noise cancelling) in some areas, in other areas you get constructive interference (ie. noise amplification) which causes a whole lot of problems, particularly noise regulations.
>> Edited by JonRB on Friday 29th November 12:44
It was fascinating. Active Noise works on the principle that 1 + (-1) = 0. In other words, use microphones to pick up the ambient cabin noise, create a "mirror image" of the sound and then play it back through speakers. The "negative" sound then cancels out the ambient sound, making things quieter. You can also add extra sounds to the speakers to make the engine sound different, like a V8 for example.
This is a pretty simplistic explanation, but gets the gist of Active Noise across.
One problem is that, although the waveforms cause destructive interference (ie. noise cancelling) in some areas, in other areas you get constructive interference (ie. noise amplification) which causes a whole lot of problems, particularly noise regulations.
>> Edited by JonRB on Friday 29th November 12:44
JonRB said: One problem is that, although the waveforms cause destructive interference (ie. noise cancelling) in some areas, in other areas you get constructive interference (ie. noise amplification) which causes a whole lot of problems, particularly noise regulations.
I always wondered if there would be pockets of high volume sound inside the car waiting to make you deaf if you moved your head into the wrong place...
The problems with active noise cancelling are vastly reduced if you have one very localised source of noise, so you can cancel it at source. or if the cancellation speakers can be placed right next to where they are received (i.e. in your ears).
I've not ome across any in car system that has speakers built into the car to shut the noise out, but I can't see how you could shut out an engine noise very well even over the small size that is a person's head. It might work for the low frequency stuff, but anything higher woudl be very difficult to do.
I've not ome across any in car system that has speakers built into the car to shut the noise out, but I can't see how you could shut out an engine noise very well even over the small size that is a person's head. It might work for the low frequency stuff, but anything higher woudl be very difficult to do.
Captain Muppet said:
xsaravtr said: Active noise??
In the mid nineties Lotus had a Citreon AX (lightweight cheap built piece of crap - I had one) fitted with an active noise system that could generate negative interferance with the NVH usually found in the car to make it a whole bunch quieter. This was done as part of an effort to get good NVH (quieter cars) without adding weighty sound deadening.
A happy bonus of the system was that rather than cancelling the noise of the engine to make it quieter you could tweak the noise to sound like any layout you wanted - V6, I3 anything.
I've no idea what happened to the system - anyone know?
Just for the record - the K series was never going to be in the US Elise because it's emmissions are too high.
I think you'll find that the actual US emission regs aren't as strict as EU3 standards (which the K series passes easily). The problem isn't so much the emissions per se, but the fact that it isn't worth it for Lotus (or even Rover) to pay the many millions that it would cost for them to submit the engine to official DOT testing.
JonGwynne said:
Captain Muppet said:
xsaravtr said: Active noise??
Blah blah blah - no need to quote this bit.
Just for the record - the K series was never going to be in the US Elise because it's emmissions are too high.
I think you'll find that the actual US emission regs aren't as strict as EU3 standards (which the K series passes easily). The problem isn't so much the emissions per se, but the fact that it isn't worth it for Lotus (or even Rover) to pay the many millions that it would cost for them to submit the engine to official DOT testing.
...and there was me thinking that the evapourative emissions from the plastic fuel rail alone were too high for federal use. Tush, I must be wrong.
Good point about the cost of testing though.
Captain Muppet said:
JonGwynne said:
Captain Muppet said:
xsaravtr said: Active noise??
Blah blah blah - no need to quote this bit.
Just for the record - the K series was never going to be in the US Elise because it's emmissions are too high.
I think you'll find that the actual US emission regs aren't as strict as EU3 standards (which the K series passes easily). The problem isn't so much the emissions per se, but the fact that it isn't worth it for Lotus (or even Rover) to pay the many millions that it would cost for them to submit the engine to official DOT testing.
...and there was me thinking that the evapourative emissions from the plastic fuel rail alone were too high for federal use. Tush, I must be wrong.
Good point about the cost of testing though.
The American auto industry doesn't like competition. Detroit figured out how to copy Land Rovers a few years back and has spent millions brainwashing Americans into driving grotesque, corpulent SUVs. The last thing they want is for a light, well-engineered sports car to catch on. They'd have to figure out how to build one. Then most Americans would have to go on a diet to fit into one. ;->
Instead of simply allowing EU3 certified cars into the country and allowing people to make money importing Elises, various TVRs, etc. They fall back on cheesy protectionism.
BTW, Mazda tried to get a hydrogen-burning rotary engine certified for testing in a zero-emission vehicle but the feds blocked it because of the few parts-per-million in burned hydrocarbons that came out the tailpipe from the burned seal-lubricants. Now they're all into this fuel cell insanity - as if that's ever going to be practical. But it generates lots of payoff to bigwigs in Washington so the taxpayers better support it.
>> Edited by JonGwynne on Wednesday 4th December 17:11
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