S3 for daily use circa 10k a year
Discussion
Forgive the novice query. I'm a Lotus virgin, coming out of a series of Caymans.
Considering something like this, I want the s'charged engine for a bit more torque:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205035...
Would be doing 10k a year. How many miles are the engines generally good for, could I add 100k before needing a major rebuild? Sort of hoping the 'Yota lump is bombproof...
I would ask how liveable these cars are as dailies, but that's such a subjective call.
Considering something like this, I want the s'charged engine for a bit more torque:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205035...
Would be doing 10k a year. How many miles are the engines generally good for, could I add 100k before needing a major rebuild? Sort of hoping the 'Yota lump is bombproof...
I would ask how liveable these cars are as dailies, but that's such a subjective call.
Things to consider when using the car everyday (in my opinion);
-If you can live with the entry/egress gymnastics, cabin space and awkward boot access
-The roof isn’t 100% weatherproof
-The HVAC is weak; defrosting/demisting in the winter will take longer and the air con isn’t the greatest!
-Road noise is fatiguing on a longer journey
-Aforementioned residual values for a higher mileage car
Maintenance wise the cars are actually pretty reasonable and hardy, although I’d be liberal with some kind of corrosion treatment around the suspension and wishbone mounts.
On the upside, having the car “to hand” when the opportunity for a great drive presents itself unexpectedly is a definite positive!
-If you can live with the entry/egress gymnastics, cabin space and awkward boot access
-The roof isn’t 100% weatherproof
-The HVAC is weak; defrosting/demisting in the winter will take longer and the air con isn’t the greatest!
-Road noise is fatiguing on a longer journey
-Aforementioned residual values for a higher mileage car
Maintenance wise the cars are actually pretty reasonable and hardy, although I’d be liberal with some kind of corrosion treatment around the suspension and wishbone mounts.
On the upside, having the car “to hand” when the opportunity for a great drive presents itself unexpectedly is a definite positive!
Thanks.
Car would be garaged so hopefully slight leaks while driving won't be a major deal. Garaged when not in sue would also, I hope, help mitigate the weak HVAC. I'm not concerned about the getting in and out in the slightest. I am concerned about the road noise. Is the S3 any better than the S2 in that regard?
Hammering the residuals via miles is a general issue that would apply to another Cayman. But even the 9A1 engine in the 987.2 and 981 is suspect at really big miles and costs fairly serious money to run as a daily, as I know from experience. As they age, the DFI fuelling system is becoming problematical in the context of serious use as opposed to weekend toy use where the cars are fairly reliable.
My main concern is whether the Elise is actually a bit horrid as a daily due to lack of refinement and a relatively joyless engine. The flat six in the Cayman helps a lot with making even a fairly dull journey on main roads a little bit joyous. I'd be worried the Elise just feels a bit agricultural in that context.
I'm pondering the Lotus because having done 150k miles in last eight years in the Caymans, I slightly tire of the silly Porsche tax regards upkeep. If you really use them, they're very expensive to run and it gets tiresome. I spent 7k recently chasing a relatively minor fault on a 987.2 recently. Had a full engine replacement on a 987.1 in the past. The Elise I know won't be cheap, per se, but am fairly confident it will be a fair bit cheaper and, importantly, I think the odds of a really huge bill are far, far lower. Even with the DFI lumps in the Porsches, you know that a megabill is a real possibility when you're doing serious miles.
Arguably, none of these cars are really suitable for 10k-plus miles a year over many years. But I don't want to run two cars.
Car would be garaged so hopefully slight leaks while driving won't be a major deal. Garaged when not in sue would also, I hope, help mitigate the weak HVAC. I'm not concerned about the getting in and out in the slightest. I am concerned about the road noise. Is the S3 any better than the S2 in that regard?
Hammering the residuals via miles is a general issue that would apply to another Cayman. But even the 9A1 engine in the 987.2 and 981 is suspect at really big miles and costs fairly serious money to run as a daily, as I know from experience. As they age, the DFI fuelling system is becoming problematical in the context of serious use as opposed to weekend toy use where the cars are fairly reliable.
My main concern is whether the Elise is actually a bit horrid as a daily due to lack of refinement and a relatively joyless engine. The flat six in the Cayman helps a lot with making even a fairly dull journey on main roads a little bit joyous. I'd be worried the Elise just feels a bit agricultural in that context.
I'm pondering the Lotus because having done 150k miles in last eight years in the Caymans, I slightly tire of the silly Porsche tax regards upkeep. If you really use them, they're very expensive to run and it gets tiresome. I spent 7k recently chasing a relatively minor fault on a 987.2 recently. Had a full engine replacement on a 987.1 in the past. The Elise I know won't be cheap, per se, but am fairly confident it will be a fair bit cheaper and, importantly, I think the odds of a really huge bill are far, far lower. Even with the DFI lumps in the Porsches, you know that a megabill is a real possibility when you're doing serious miles.
Arguably, none of these cars are really suitable for 10k-plus miles a year over many years. But I don't want to run two cars.
Elise makes a great and relatively cheap daily. Having a garage probably takes the biggest negative of even after you have cleaned the windscreen, driving off and the screen fogging up on the outside. S3 pretty watertight in less than biblical rain. Tyres feel like your driving on ice for the first few miles in winter reminds you to keep it steady.
The later 2ZR engine in the car in your link isn’t as characterful as the early, screaming 2ZZ, but I’d argue it’s better for daily use thanks to a wider torque band. It won’t be as sonorous as the six in a Cayman, but the addition of a 2Bular exhaust system to mine has added a bit of sparkle-it settles okay on the motorway but adds audible character when pushing on.
I rented an S2 SC for a day a few years ago. Engine wasn't terribly impressive re noise or go. I was hoping the S3 was a touch more refined / polished and also a bit more muscular with the increased torque.
I do like quite peaky engines (loathe turbo engines), but the S2 supercharged lump didn't really impress me. It was OK, nothing more. A later V6 Exige in touring spec probably ideal, but out of budget, really. Don't want to go too much above £30k.
I do like quite peaky engines (loathe turbo engines), but the S2 supercharged lump didn't really impress me. It was OK, nothing more. A later V6 Exige in touring spec probably ideal, but out of budget, really. Don't want to go too much above £30k.
Question has been raised many times and its very subjective. Many do live with them daily, many don't. As the models progressed, the usability seems to have improved.
Personally, I would soon tire of using an Elise as a daily car. Indeed, when I wanted a one car fits all I sold my Elise and daily and bought a Boxster S, so the other direction from you in many ways.
However, those more hardcore than me use an Elise daily with no issue. Whether you would enjoy that is personal. Some people daily a motorbike...
Have you considered an Evora? Early car would be in budget and lends itself better as an all rounder IMO. Only downside would be mpg.
Personally, I would soon tire of using an Elise as a daily car. Indeed, when I wanted a one car fits all I sold my Elise and daily and bought a Boxster S, so the other direction from you in many ways.
However, those more hardcore than me use an Elise daily with no issue. Whether you would enjoy that is personal. Some people daily a motorbike...
Have you considered an Evora? Early car would be in budget and lends itself better as an all rounder IMO. Only downside would be mpg.
Shnozz said:
Have you considered an Evora? Early car would be in budget and lends itself better as an all rounder IMO. Only downside would be mpg.
MPG doesn't really bother me. I tend to get about 20 as it is, doubt the Evora would be so different it upset me. It's the bills when the car breaks that I find tiresome - especially with the silly Porsche tax on nearly everything. I've driven an early NA Evora. Nice car, very pretty and some great attributes, but as an actual driver's car without considering other factors, prefer the Porsche option. Didn't think the Evora's pedals or shift were up to much - brake servo was a bit OTT, which I hate, throttle overly light. Nice steering but didn't love the chassis - you could feel the top heavy engine/box config. Car I drove possibly needed a bit of a geo, but I didn't love it. Steering isn't quite as good in the Porsche, but primary controls overall far better / better matched and from what I've driven prefer the Porsche's balance, too. Early NA Evora is a bit slow, too. I'm not a speed freak, but the performance is a little disappointing.
Apart from the presumably bombproof Toyota V6, what are they like to run? If fairly expensive, may as well stick with the Porsche.
esotericar said:
I would ask how liveable these cars are as dailies, but that's such a subjective call.
The Toyota engines like others have said are generally very reliable and relatively cheap to service.As for if you can live with these cars as dailies. I could, I put 40K miles on an S1 which I drove everyday for two years in sun, rain and snow (blizzards at times). Just make sure you warm the tyres on cold days otherwise it feels like it's on ice. However using it that much does take the shine off driving it as you get too used to it. However that could be said for any car. Maybe you should try to see if you could be lent one for a week to experience it in all conditions. The S3 is certainly more civilised.
It's certainly doable. I did it in an S1 Elise for 2-3 years. But some caveats. I was younger and not really used to creature comforts having come from Westfields and sheddy little hatchbacks so the Elise never seemed a chore. Now that I'm the wrong side of 40 and with a few big wafty barges under my belt, I might think differently. Maybe I'd still give it a try if I didn't have kids.
The ingress/egress thing is worth mentioning again. I know you've said it's not a problem and I would agree that most of the time it isn't too bad once you hone your technique but it absolutely is a problem in tight parking spaces or garage which are the sort of thing you're much more likely to encounter regularly in a daily driver rather than a weekend toy. Wouldn't want to put you off but that can be a pain if it's something you face often.
I think luggage space is fine, though the Cayman may have spoilt you on that front. The boot is deceptive as it's way bigger than the aperture. You just have to use squashy bags. A fair bit of space behind the seats too though trickier to get at. Ample for 2 people on a weekend trip. Longer if you're happy to pack light. The Mrs and I did two weeks in France. Only really got tricky when trying to find space for a dozen bottles of wine. Worth mentioning the lack of spare wheel as well...
I never found the hood or leaks to be a big issue even on the S1. Maybe I was just very lucky. S3 roof much better to take on and off.
Toyota lump and box should be more or less bombproof but suspension, shocks, bushes, toe links and ball joints are all fairly consumable and the wishbones rust for fun. Will be worse on a daily driver so I'd probably expect to be refurbishing all of that lot every 4-5 years or so. Can be pretty costly even DIY'ing it. Factory radiator can be a weak point and would be relatively expensive to fix as front clam needs to come off but a replacement aftermarket one should then last a lifetime. Nothing else much to worry about. General running costs are excellent. Our 996 is far, far more expensive to run than our Exige.
Noise is the only real comfort issue. Carpets help. Seats and driving position are really good.
The ingress/egress thing is worth mentioning again. I know you've said it's not a problem and I would agree that most of the time it isn't too bad once you hone your technique but it absolutely is a problem in tight parking spaces or garage which are the sort of thing you're much more likely to encounter regularly in a daily driver rather than a weekend toy. Wouldn't want to put you off but that can be a pain if it's something you face often.
I think luggage space is fine, though the Cayman may have spoilt you on that front. The boot is deceptive as it's way bigger than the aperture. You just have to use squashy bags. A fair bit of space behind the seats too though trickier to get at. Ample for 2 people on a weekend trip. Longer if you're happy to pack light. The Mrs and I did two weeks in France. Only really got tricky when trying to find space for a dozen bottles of wine. Worth mentioning the lack of spare wheel as well...
I never found the hood or leaks to be a big issue even on the S1. Maybe I was just very lucky. S3 roof much better to take on and off.
Toyota lump and box should be more or less bombproof but suspension, shocks, bushes, toe links and ball joints are all fairly consumable and the wishbones rust for fun. Will be worse on a daily driver so I'd probably expect to be refurbishing all of that lot every 4-5 years or so. Can be pretty costly even DIY'ing it. Factory radiator can be a weak point and would be relatively expensive to fix as front clam needs to come off but a replacement aftermarket one should then last a lifetime. Nothing else much to worry about. General running costs are excellent. Our 996 is far, far more expensive to run than our Exige.
Noise is the only real comfort issue. Carpets help. Seats and driving position are really good.
Edited by Gad-Westy on Wednesday 25th May 19:30
Edited by Gad-Westy on Wednesday 25th May 19:39
You will give up long before the car does.
Based on my S2 which is in pretty good 'Road trim' with a good hood - you absolutely can use it daily. I use mine to commute to work all lthe time, it's even great on fuel!
The question is not can it be your daily car, to me it's can if be your only car.
I wouldn't in a million years want to be forced into long motorway trips in mine, or go out when it's cold, wet, dark, icy etc. It's just miserable with the roof up too.
Based on my S2 which is in pretty good 'Road trim' with a good hood - you absolutely can use it daily. I use mine to commute to work all lthe time, it's even great on fuel!
The question is not can it be your daily car, to me it's can if be your only car.
I wouldn't in a million years want to be forced into long motorway trips in mine, or go out when it's cold, wet, dark, icy etc. It's just miserable with the roof up too.
esotericar said:
Shnozz said:
Have you considered an Evora? Early car would be in budget and lends itself better as an all rounder IMO. Only downside would be mpg.
MPG doesn't really bother me. I tend to get about 20 as it is, doubt the Evora would be so different it upset me. It's the bills when the car breaks that I find tiresome - especially with the silly Porsche tax on nearly everything. I've driven an early NA Evora. Nice car, very pretty and some great attributes, but as an actual driver's car without considering other factors, prefer the Porsche option. Didn't think the Evora's pedals or shift were up to much - brake servo was a bit OTT, which I hate, throttle overly light. Nice steering but didn't love the chassis - you could feel the top heavy engine/box config. Car I drove possibly needed a bit of a geo, but I didn't love it. Steering isn't quite as good in the Porsche, but primary controls overall far better / better matched and from what I've driven prefer the Porsche's balance, too. Early NA Evora is a bit slow, too. I'm not a speed freak, but the performance is a little disappointing.
Apart from the presumably bombproof Toyota V6, what are they like to run? If fairly expensive, may as well stick with the Porsche.
I've dailied my S2 Elise (K-series) for the last 13 years, albeit on a lower mileage. It's been generally reliable but you have to expect niggles - squeaks, rattles, etc. I do very few motorway miles though, I wouldn't want to use an Elise as a daily if I was commuting on the motorway.
Residuals may not be great by Lotus standards over such high miles, but they'll still be better than just about anything else.
Residuals may not be great by Lotus standards over such high miles, but they'll still be better than just about anything else.
Gad-Westy said:
You probably already know all this but comparing to a Porsche on an objective level is always going to be bad for Lotus products. Porsches are generally much better at being cars and doing car things. Lotus far less refined and basic and IMO all the better for it. I find them far more appealing as a fun car but no denying there are big compromises. On the engine note thing, sadly a Porsche flat 6 will always trump a relatively 'ordinary' 4 cylinder. They can sound okay and have a bit of bark with the right exhaust and/or inlet but none of the depth of a bigger multi cylinder engine. That's just how it is. You don't get the rebuild bills though so....
The point I was making is that I prefer the Porsche to the Evora purely for driving enjoyment. The Evora did some things better. But not enough. When I had the S2 SC for a day, it was a harder call for pure driving enjoyment versus a well setup Cayman. Versus a Cayman on, say, factory 19 inch wheels etc, the Elise is easily better. But if you put the Cayman on small wheels and make a few other changes, it's probably too close to call. Granted, I know really nothing about setting up Elises.
The headlights really are truly shocking 
Just to counter Gad-Wesy’s comments about storage, I’m afraid the S3 only has a fraction of the storage of the S1. I’ve had both. You can cram a surprising amount in an S1 but the S3 has less space behind the seats, a smaller boot (due to the engine being the other way around and needing space for the headers) and to cap it all the battery is in there too!
I think tbh you’ve already answered your own question. An S3 is more sophisticated than an S1 but it’s still a raw and awkward little thing every day. In a bizarre way it might be worse to daily than the older car - because it makes a token effort to be liveable you kind of notice and resent the compromises more sat in traffic, whereas you forgive them in the S1 as it’s more pure and has even more character.
Best saved as a weekend toy where you can drive them as god intended imho.
I’ve run an S1 Evora as a daily for 20k miles. It was a later car with the close ratio box and a myriad of other improvements too like better gear shift cables and slightly firmer suspension from the “S”. I think it answers a lot of your criticisms of the one you drove, but there is no question there will be more niggles than the Porsche and the driving experience is probably too similar to justify it for you if it’s not a car you’re in love with anyway.
After saying all that, why not buy an Elise anyway? If you don’t like it you just sell it - in the current market you’d lose nothing at all.
Just to counter Gad-Wesy’s comments about storage, I’m afraid the S3 only has a fraction of the storage of the S1. I’ve had both. You can cram a surprising amount in an S1 but the S3 has less space behind the seats, a smaller boot (due to the engine being the other way around and needing space for the headers) and to cap it all the battery is in there too!
I think tbh you’ve already answered your own question. An S3 is more sophisticated than an S1 but it’s still a raw and awkward little thing every day. In a bizarre way it might be worse to daily than the older car - because it makes a token effort to be liveable you kind of notice and resent the compromises more sat in traffic, whereas you forgive them in the S1 as it’s more pure and has even more character.
Best saved as a weekend toy where you can drive them as god intended imho.
I’ve run an S1 Evora as a daily for 20k miles. It was a later car with the close ratio box and a myriad of other improvements too like better gear shift cables and slightly firmer suspension from the “S”. I think it answers a lot of your criticisms of the one you drove, but there is no question there will be more niggles than the Porsche and the driving experience is probably too similar to justify it for you if it’s not a car you’re in love with anyway.
After saying all that, why not buy an Elise anyway? If you don’t like it you just sell it - in the current market you’d lose nothing at all.
Edited by giveitfish on Friday 27th May 08:14
Personally, I wouldn’t. A Porsche would be much better suited. S3’s are much better suited to an ‘occasion’ car for when you are in the mood for it. As mentioned above, road noise, getting in and out, poor headlights and so on would all grind after a short while. Get one, but get a daily too.
Edited by J66JBo on Friday 27th May 12:20
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