Evora to Elise S2
Discussion
I'm poised to part with my NA Evora and scratch the S2 Elise itch.
I'm a big fan of the K series engine having played with them in earlier years in a Caterham, however I have seen a later Toyota engined S2 Elise S Touring spec with the 134 bhp engine which has caught my attention.
I can't seem to find much in the way of reviews for these cars and would appreciate feedback from any owners on things to watch out for and the general onwership proposition of this model versus a K engined car.
Cheers
I'm a big fan of the K series engine having played with them in earlier years in a Caterham, however I have seen a later Toyota engined S2 Elise S Touring spec with the 134 bhp engine which has caught my attention.
I can't seem to find much in the way of reviews for these cars and would appreciate feedback from any owners on things to watch out for and the general onwership proposition of this model versus a K engined car.
Cheers
I'm neither an owner or an ex-owner I'm afraid but I'll wade in with an opinion none-the-less 
The k-series is at it's best with the close ratio gearbox. It really transforms those cars and makes the lower powered Elise derivatives much more fun IMO. I'm afraid I have no idea which of the S2 models had that but it's worth finding out. The downside of the K-series for me is not the engine (which is fantastic in every form I've tried it in) but the sloppy gear change. It can be improved a bit but I would have it down as the strongest 'con' against k-series cars, way ahead of any worries about HGF etc. Big pro's being, sweet, characterful engines, lighter cars, more choice on the used market I would think and potentially cheaper to buy.
The toyota engined cars ought to be more reliable and the gear change is better out of the box (it's still no MX5 though!) but gear ratios are not ideal. My understanding is that the 1.6 cars share the same ratios as the 1.8's and if that's true, I'd have them down as a bit long and a bit gappy. On the SC cars it doesn't matter that much but it's a big downside on the lower powered cars where you are more likely to just want to wring the car's neck.
Evo seemed to really like the 1.6 cars. I've read other accounts that argue that it might just be the pick of the entire back catalogue in terms of an ownership prospect. Subjective of course but they must be doing something right. But there don't seem many around to choose from.
The k-series is at it's best with the close ratio gearbox. It really transforms those cars and makes the lower powered Elise derivatives much more fun IMO. I'm afraid I have no idea which of the S2 models had that but it's worth finding out. The downside of the K-series for me is not the engine (which is fantastic in every form I've tried it in) but the sloppy gear change. It can be improved a bit but I would have it down as the strongest 'con' against k-series cars, way ahead of any worries about HGF etc. Big pro's being, sweet, characterful engines, lighter cars, more choice on the used market I would think and potentially cheaper to buy.
The toyota engined cars ought to be more reliable and the gear change is better out of the box (it's still no MX5 though!) but gear ratios are not ideal. My understanding is that the 1.6 cars share the same ratios as the 1.8's and if that's true, I'd have them down as a bit long and a bit gappy. On the SC cars it doesn't matter that much but it's a big downside on the lower powered cars where you are more likely to just want to wring the car's neck.
Evo seemed to really like the 1.6 cars. I've read other accounts that argue that it might just be the pick of the entire back catalogue in terms of an ownership prospect. Subjective of course but they must be doing something right. But there don't seem many around to choose from.
IMO the biggest difference between the two is not in the engine or indeed in the drive-train at all, but in the brakes. All K-series Elises are unassisted whereas all Toyota ones are assisted (and have ABS). That difference was the primary thing which steered me to a K-series car instead of a Toyota one, the unassisted brake setup is a joy to use.
Personally I like the K-series gear change too, although I know I'm in a minority there. There is a bit of play in the linkage whatever you do but if it's set up properly it's acceptable and it's a much more... mechanical feeling thing than the Toyota gearbox. You can really feel what's happening inside the gearbox to the point that if you abuse it (for example by requesting a big change in engine revs without double declutching to bring the internals up to speed first) it will balk and refuse to engage quickly. I can see why someone wouldn't want that in a family hatchback, but in a car like the Elise it just adds to the driving experience for me. If you don't want to have to double declutch and rev match, the Toyota unit is undoubtedly better.
In terms of reliability, the engine shouldn't be much of an issue either way but the later cars are generally better built so you'll probably have fewer niggles (although there is an argument that an older car which has really been looked after should have had most of them sorted by now).
ETA: Regarding K-series gearbox ratios, 1st and 2nd are roughly the same in all S2s, but the VVC engined cars have 3rd 4th and 5th about 10% higher. I don't know about the Toyota cars.
Personally I like the K-series gear change too, although I know I'm in a minority there. There is a bit of play in the linkage whatever you do but if it's set up properly it's acceptable and it's a much more... mechanical feeling thing than the Toyota gearbox. You can really feel what's happening inside the gearbox to the point that if you abuse it (for example by requesting a big change in engine revs without double declutching to bring the internals up to speed first) it will balk and refuse to engage quickly. I can see why someone wouldn't want that in a family hatchback, but in a car like the Elise it just adds to the driving experience for me. If you don't want to have to double declutch and rev match, the Toyota unit is undoubtedly better.
In terms of reliability, the engine shouldn't be much of an issue either way but the later cars are generally better built so you'll probably have fewer niggles (although there is an argument that an older car which has really been looked after should have had most of them sorted by now).
ETA: Regarding K-series gearbox ratios, 1st and 2nd are roughly the same in all S2s, but the VVC engined cars have 3rd 4th and 5th about 10% higher. I don't know about the Toyota cars.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 20th July 07:49
Something else worth noting is that Lotus changed the seal which runs around the top of the windscreen during S2 production to add two small protrusions to the tops of the A pillars which catch the drips which tend to form there and funnel them outside the car. I've never seen a car without the newer seal which doesn't leak if the wind is blowing in the wrong direction in heavy rain. You can see the difference (and also buy the upgraded part if you wish) here:
https://www.hangar111.com/lotus/updated-windscreen...
I'm not exactly sure when the change happened, but I know some K-series cars (such as mine) have the newer part. It might only be S2 111S models which have it though because Lotus continued production of the 111S in parallel with the 111R for a while, after the standard 120bhp k-series car had been discontinued.
https://www.hangar111.com/lotus/updated-windscreen...
I'm not exactly sure when the change happened, but I know some K-series cars (such as mine) have the newer part. It might only be S2 111S models which have it though because Lotus continued production of the 111S in parallel with the 111R for a while, after the standard 120bhp k-series car had been discontinued.
kambites said:
IMO the biggest difference between the two is not in the engine or indeed in the drive-train at all, but in the brakes. All K-series Elises are unassisted whereas all Toyota ones are assisted (and have ABS). That difference was the primary thing which steered me to a K-series car instead of a Toyota one, the unassisted brake setup is a joy to use.
Took the words out of my mouth.Edited by kambites on Tuesday 20th July 07:49
I would suggest you try one.
Test drove one many years ago (don't remember which model), and it just wouldn't wind up.
Later test drove (and bought) a supercharged one - an absolute hoot to drive at max revs (8400 rev limit).
It was also reluctant to gain revs below 4000 rpm in high gears.
So possibly too high geared as per previous post?
Bought it for 26k in 2013 and traded it in against a Cup 220 for 26k 2 years later so did OK.
Test drove one many years ago (don't remember which model), and it just wouldn't wind up.
Later test drove (and bought) a supercharged one - an absolute hoot to drive at max revs (8400 rev limit).
It was also reluctant to gain revs below 4000 rpm in high gears.
So possibly too high geared as per previous post?
Bought it for 26k in 2013 and traded it in against a Cup 220 for 26k 2 years later so did OK.
tonyg58 said:
I would suggest you try one.
Test drove one many years ago (don't remember which model), and it just wouldn't wind up.
Later test drove (and bought) a supercharged one - an absolute hoot to drive at max revs (8400 rev limit).
It was also reluctant to gain revs below 4000 rpm in high gears.
So possibly too high geared as per previous post?
Bought it for 26k in 2013 and traded it in against a Cup 220 for 26k 2 years later so did OK.
Cheers for this - I've actually tried a few including a S1 135 Sport and, for me, the short gearbox really made that car come alive. I'm therefore pretty much set on a model with the close ratio box. I'm a big fan of the K - an unfairly maligned engine in my view, I had a K powered Caterham many years ago with the 6 speed box and it was a complete joy as a power unit in a light weight carTest drove one many years ago (don't remember which model), and it just wouldn't wind up.
Later test drove (and bought) a supercharged one - an absolute hoot to drive at max revs (8400 rev limit).
It was also reluctant to gain revs below 4000 rpm in high gears.
So possibly too high geared as per previous post?
Bought it for 26k in 2013 and traded it in against a Cup 220 for 26k 2 years later so did OK.
Tlandcruiser said:
Is it normal for so few elises be for sale? Prices seem to have hugely increased too. Do you think this is just a blip, or will the prices stay strong?
Obviously I have been watching closely and there are some simply bonkers prices being asked out there for some very average cars and clearly there are a lot of opportunists in the selling market chancing their hand. During this week I sense the market is softening and I've seen at least one car drop in price and others sticking for more than a few weeks.I think prices will drop, not like a stone, but back to a more sensible level especially once payback time arrives for the pandemic and the dark nights begin to arrive. I'm sticking for the moment and will sell the Evora first (the price of which I have always been realistic about) then wait for a more sensible Elise market.
Edited by Lotobear on Friday 20th August 11:11
kambites said:
The market usually softens a bit at this time of year, but I think the long-term trend is definitely upwards for early Elises.
I agree though I don't think we are looking at a normal seasonal market correction - the insane price rises (or rather asking prices) are, in my view, being driven by 'false wealth' and chancers taking a punt, and to be fair who can blame them?I do see Elise prices on an upwards trajectory though - the last of the lightweight truly digital Loti and they ain't making any more.
Yup, you certainly can't blame the sellers. As soon as it become widely believed that prices will rise, it becomes a self-fulfiling prophesy because suddenly people see no urgency to sell what they perceive as an appreciating asset so supply dries up. Except for a few people who have to sell for some reason, it becomes entirely a seller's market.
Also dont assume a toyota powered car is more reliable than a k series. with the exception of initial HGF on my older s2 elise, a one off fix for a couple of hundred quid, the car was absolutely rock solid, never missed a beat, fantastic engine.
Versus my 1zz newer elise which had problem after problem of throttle body, control valve related problems, difficult to diagnose initially (random stalling, erratic idle, limp mode etc etc), and extremely expensive to fix. In my frustration with the car i spoke to various senior bods at Hethel and even went high up at Toyota, but with limited success. In the end I believe it was a new throttle body required, which wasnt that big a job albeit bloody expensive parts, but tracing it was the difficult bit.
If I were to do it all again, I'd opt for a later k series s2, either 120bhp (which is perfectly adequate for 90% of use) or greater.
I'm sure there'll be lovers and haters of either/or, but that's my own personal experience.
Versus my 1zz newer elise which had problem after problem of throttle body, control valve related problems, difficult to diagnose initially (random stalling, erratic idle, limp mode etc etc), and extremely expensive to fix. In my frustration with the car i spoke to various senior bods at Hethel and even went high up at Toyota, but with limited success. In the end I believe it was a new throttle body required, which wasnt that big a job albeit bloody expensive parts, but tracing it was the difficult bit.
If I were to do it all again, I'd opt for a later k series s2, either 120bhp (which is perfectly adequate for 90% of use) or greater.
I'm sure there'll be lovers and haters of either/or, but that's my own personal experience.
Edited by SeanyD on Tuesday 24th August 17:57
I'm five weeks into owning / loving my first Elise; a 2007 with the Toyota engine.
This, for me, wasn't an impulse purchase and I researched the options quite extensively which to be honest lead to greater confusion that when I started. I ended up with an equal list of pros on cons between the Rover and Toyota engine with some claiming the other to be the devil incarnate and vice-versa. So I ended up with a short list of criteria so that whenever something popped up, I could do a quick sense check to see if fitted the bill. For me, that list was:
Less than 60k on the clock
Less than £20k
2004 onwards (entirely arbitrary)
Limited or no mods (nothing against them but if there's any mods to be had, I want to do them).
Decent service history
Limited or no track time (whilst realising that this is difficult to verify)
Plus the usual list re tyres, bodywork, etc...
A lovely 2007 one popped up on Pistonheads. 43k miles. A tad under £18k. And everything else ticked.
I've no experience of any other variant. All I know is that I absolutely love mine and is second only to our dog in the list of the most pleasing material things I've ever purchased.
The first one I looked at was in April. A 2004 S2 with 56K miles at a local dealers for £15,995. I'd seen it advertised a month earlier and when I looked again, it had been sold. But then it popped up again which set an alarm ringing but just turned out the buyer got cold feet. The dealer said that if I didn't take it, he'd take it off the market for a few months and re-list it at a higher price. This he did and it was sold a few weeks ago for £18k.
(I wasn't really struck on the colour and the dash had badly bubbled).
Chatting to a few of the Lotus bods at the Silverstone Classic recently, a figure of 12% value increases seems to be the accepted norm on Elises at the moment.
Personally, I couldn't care less if it halves in value or triples. I'm just happy to have one!
This, for me, wasn't an impulse purchase and I researched the options quite extensively which to be honest lead to greater confusion that when I started. I ended up with an equal list of pros on cons between the Rover and Toyota engine with some claiming the other to be the devil incarnate and vice-versa. So I ended up with a short list of criteria so that whenever something popped up, I could do a quick sense check to see if fitted the bill. For me, that list was:
Less than 60k on the clock
Less than £20k
2004 onwards (entirely arbitrary)
Limited or no mods (nothing against them but if there's any mods to be had, I want to do them).
Decent service history
Limited or no track time (whilst realising that this is difficult to verify)
Plus the usual list re tyres, bodywork, etc...
A lovely 2007 one popped up on Pistonheads. 43k miles. A tad under £18k. And everything else ticked.
I've no experience of any other variant. All I know is that I absolutely love mine and is second only to our dog in the list of the most pleasing material things I've ever purchased.
Lotobear said:
Tlandcruiser said:
Is it normal for so few elises be for sale? Prices seem to have hugely increased too. Do you think this is just a blip, or will the prices stay strong?
Obviously I have been watching closely and there are some simply bonkers prices being asked out there for some very average cars and clearly there are a lot of opportunists in the selling market chancing their hand. During this week I sense the market is softening and I've seen at least one car drop in price and others sticking for more than a few weeks.(I wasn't really struck on the colour and the dash had badly bubbled).
Chatting to a few of the Lotus bods at the Silverstone Classic recently, a figure of 12% value increases seems to be the accepted norm on Elises at the moment.
Personally, I couldn't care less if it halves in value or triples. I'm just happy to have one!
kambites said:
The market usually softens a bit at this time of year, but I think the long-term trend is definitely upwards for early Elises.
I'm still watching the market closely and would observe that most of the cars on sale for the last 3-4 weeks ago have stuck and a couple have been dropped in price and yet they remain unsold.One which sat on Ebay in Newcastle for 17k and didn't selll was eventually put into Ebay auction and was bid to 14.6k but failed to meet it's reserve.
To me the market is around 10% over valued on Elise S2's and recent transactions or lack of them appear to support this.
I still see a long term upward trend however it's clear to me that there is significant 'froth' in the prices being asked and I see things falling back to more realistic levels short term as furlough unwinds, jobs are lost and the false wealth created over the last 18 months is used up.
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