RE: Honda Engined Exige
Wednesday 9th October 2002
Honda Engined Exige
It's all the rage you know...
Discussion
I couldn't disagree more.
These days I'm of the opinion that the best and most reliable engines come from big manufacturers. Only they have the money to carry out the R&D to make a new engine. And Hondas engines are good if not best in this sort of size range.
Not wanting to put Joe out of business, but I hope Lotus are looking at this sort of thing as they think about the US Elise.
These days I'm of the opinion that the best and most reliable engines come from big manufacturers. Only they have the money to carry out the R&D to make a new engine. And Hondas engines are good if not best in this sort of size range.
Not wanting to put Joe out of business, but I hope Lotus are looking at this sort of thing as they think about the US Elise.
The Honda engine might be a good one, but I say, at least keep the damn thing British! Swapping engines around from one nation and another only perpetuates the kit-car image that Lotus have never seemed to shake off. In the US, this Honda engine swap comes up often as the desired cure-all for increasing power in the Elise, even though there are only a handful of these cars in the country and the people endorsing this sort of butcherism have never driven the car in its stock form. In my opinion, this sort of hacking rates down there with all the Chevy V8-powered S1/S2 Esprits out there. I'd personally rather see a Ford in the Exige if it isn't going to be a Lotus or stock Rover engine. At least Lotus can crow about the racing heritage of the Lotus/Ford combination. I don't seem to remember any Lotus/Honda championships being won. To reiterate, at least keep it British.
Honda makes the best 4s, Elsie needs a good 4. makes sense. Until such time as Lotus has the cash to do cutting edge engine development without someone else footing the bill, they and we are relegated to using engines from other sources. The best source right now is from Honda. I have no loyalty to them, it's just that they've done the best job of it. This K20A I've got in my Exige is putting out over 260 HP now, and we still haven't finished with the ECU mapping. From all indications, it looks as if we'll probably see 275-280 before we're done, without any internal modifications.
Can anyone else match that?
Can anyone else match that?
I am continually saddened by the misplaced "loyalty" by the likes of LotusV8.
Honda is a great car company, with very similar ideals to Lotus (Light and Fun). Their K20A is MEAN. Surely we are all after the best car lotus can make, whether is has a Rover (hey, *that's* not boring!) or a firebreathing VTEC Honda in it is an obvious choice.
Honda is a great car company, with very similar ideals to Lotus (Light and Fun). Their K20A is MEAN. Surely we are all after the best car lotus can make, whether is has a Rover (hey, *that's* not boring!) or a firebreathing VTEC Honda in it is an obvious choice.
quote:
I am continually saddened by the misplaced "loyalty" by the likes of LotusV8.
Honda is a great car company, with very similar ideals to Lotus (Light and Fun). Their K20A is MEAN. Surely we are all after the best car lotus can make, whether is has a Rover (hey, *that's* not boring!) or a firebreathing VTEC Honda in it is an obvious choice.
I couldn't agree more. It's hard to imagine Colin Chapman turning down the lightest, most powerful and advanced standard engine available because it wasn't British. Lets face it, the K-series is not a sporting engine. It's more fun revving a BMW diesel...
quote:
The Honda engine might be a good one, but I say, at least keep the damn thing British!
There is NO British designed engine that can touch these Honda NA engine at the moment. The fact is staying loyal and patriotic means compromising the performance of the car and not getting the most out of it.
The K-Series itself is strained even as a standard 1.8 let alone pushing it to produce over 100bhp/litre!! The Honda is doing 130bhp/litre and the engine components haven't even been changed in anyway. Putting a Honda engine in an Elise/Exige is the best thing that has happened to a Lotus for a very long time.
er....LotusV8, am I mistaken or wasn't the K series engine (and the accompanying gearbox)developed in partnership with Honda. Also didn't Mrs Thatcher try to ban it as she wanted a wholly British engine for Austin Rover. The fact it is an award winning engine is beside the point I suppose. Also the revolutionary MG EXE developed jointly with Honda which eventually grew into the Honda NSX. What on earth do you think has been at the "heart" of every Elise since conception?
The Rover V8 was an Buick design, the Mini Cooper's block being sourced originally from an American truck engine. Try telling Michael Caine that his motor's in the Italian Job weren't British.
I think the Exige/Honda mix is a natural progression and as it blows the socks off Porsches, that's good enough.
p.s Were the Renault and Honda engined F1 Lotuses not proper Lotuses ??
>> Edited by jeremycs on Thursday 10th October 11:28
>> Edited by jeremycs on Thursday 10th October 12:30
The Rover V8 was an Buick design, the Mini Cooper's block being sourced originally from an American truck engine. Try telling Michael Caine that his motor's in the Italian Job weren't British.
I think the Exige/Honda mix is a natural progression and as it blows the socks off Porsches, that's good enough.
p.s Were the Renault and Honda engined F1 Lotuses not proper Lotuses ??
>> Edited by jeremycs on Thursday 10th October 11:28
>> Edited by jeremycs on Thursday 10th October 12:30
You've gotta be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The 'A' is as british as they come. The block was derived from the side valve version designed in the late twenties for the original Seven.
The whole car was then was sold to and built under licence by Honda out in the east. So if your being pernickety, all Honda engines and cars find there're ancestory in the 'A' and the Se7en.
This showes in the all honda transverse units except latest i-vtecs (which are all new), as like in the original Mini, they were the wrong way round in the nose of car.
Nerrr!
The 'K' was developed during the late 80's when Rover was owned by BAe and in partnership with my beloved Honda, but the inspiration for the 'K's evolution came from (exactly the same place, I may add, as for the ford zetec) taring Yamaha bike engines to pieces.
They were noted for having very long con-rods and short strokes, so the angular acceleration of said rods was minimised. This gave the free revving, if peaky charater of the 'K'and very similar 'zectec' engines. In fact, if you saw the very first Ariel Atom prototype at the motor show in '96, it's engine bore the Yamaha badge (pre-pro zetec).
IMHO Colin Chapman would have gone for the i-vtec. It's light, small, prodigiously powerful, perfectly engineered and simple. Everything he stood for.
All they need is an F1 partnership for advertising's sake and there're sorted.
Mouse.
Thrust, thank for mailing that one, it cheered me right up!
The 'A' is as british as they come. The block was derived from the side valve version designed in the late twenties for the original Seven.
The whole car was then was sold to and built under licence by Honda out in the east. So if your being pernickety, all Honda engines and cars find there're ancestory in the 'A' and the Se7en.
This showes in the all honda transverse units except latest i-vtecs (which are all new), as like in the original Mini, they were the wrong way round in the nose of car.
Nerrr!
The 'K' was developed during the late 80's when Rover was owned by BAe and in partnership with my beloved Honda, but the inspiration for the 'K's evolution came from (exactly the same place, I may add, as for the ford zetec) taring Yamaha bike engines to pieces.
They were noted for having very long con-rods and short strokes, so the angular acceleration of said rods was minimised. This gave the free revving, if peaky charater of the 'K'and very similar 'zectec' engines. In fact, if you saw the very first Ariel Atom prototype at the motor show in '96, it's engine bore the Yamaha badge (pre-pro zetec).
IMHO Colin Chapman would have gone for the i-vtec. It's light, small, prodigiously powerful, perfectly engineered and simple. Everything he stood for.
All they need is an F1 partnership for advertising's sake and there're sorted.
Mouse.
Thrust, thank for mailing that one, it cheered me right up!
double clutch said: The Honda engine might be a good one, but I say, at least keep the damn thing British! In the US, this Honda engine swap comes up often as the desired cure-all for increasing power in the Elise, even though there are only a handful of these cars in the country and the people endorsing this sort of butcherism have never driven the car in its stock form.
As one of the people endorsing Honda engined Elises I'd like to correct this. I drove a stock 1998 Elise S1 for a year and put 9000 miles on it in the UK. I have also driven my Honda engined S1 Elise for about 9000 miles in California. I use(d) both as daily drivers and have driven 500 miles in a day, and autocrossed and done track days in my Honda engined Elise.
I think the important thing about an Elise engine is that it should have a racing heritage and have plenty of "tuner" parts available for it. The Honda engines fit this descrption better than the Rover.
My Rover engined Elise never liked high revs, and it sounded agricultural at idle. The Honda is a lot smoother, and if I took you for a 9100rpm ride in my Elise I think you would have a silly grin on your face like everyone else who has tried it.
However, the most interesting British designed engines come from TVR, who seem to have figured out how to do low volume production of unique designs. Perhaps TVR could chop one of their V8 designs in half to make a 4-cyl for the Elise... I'd still prefer the reliability of a Honda though.
Interesting thread - consider Lotus engine heritage:
Orig Elite - engine from Fire pump manufacturer - Cov Climax.
Orig Elan - Lotus bolt twin cam head on a Ford block.
Orig Europa - Renault engine
Esprit - Loosely based on Vauxhall block
Esprit V8 - OK Lotus engine (but derived from Esprit)
Elan M100 - Isuzu - sweet engine (remember scowls from trad Lotus owners - not proper Lotus u know!)..
Elise - Rover sourced - for heritage see above.
Why should Honda installation cause any probs - if its the best engine for the job and the price is right (prob no 1 on the Lotus list!) - use it. Let Lotus stick to what they are good at - sublime chassis design..
Orig Elite - engine from Fire pump manufacturer - Cov Climax.
Orig Elan - Lotus bolt twin cam head on a Ford block.
Orig Europa - Renault engine
Esprit - Loosely based on Vauxhall block
Esprit V8 - OK Lotus engine (but derived from Esprit)
Elan M100 - Isuzu - sweet engine (remember scowls from trad Lotus owners - not proper Lotus u know!)..
Elise - Rover sourced - for heritage see above.
Why should Honda installation cause any probs - if its the best engine for the job and the price is right (prob no 1 on the Lotus list!) - use it. Let Lotus stick to what they are good at - sublime chassis design..
I'm considering it. Depends a lot on the torque characteristics of the new RX-8 engine. It's supposed to make about 250 HP naturally aspirated, so they must've found some magic somewhere. A suitable trans will be an issue for transverse mounting, but with a nice lightweight Alloy rear sub-frame, I could mount it longitudinally and have an excellent choice of gearboxes, and extra boot-space as well. The C.G would be even lower yet with this configuration. I don't consider the old 13-B a good choice, however, not enough low RPM grunt.
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