Discussion
Hi,
I may have mentioned before a mate has a 111R (and if he is reading this "i am jealous ! "
) - he mentioned he had a track day a month so ago.
Anyway, first time he has been on the track and apparently all cars (most of which were Subaru’s) lapped him. Now i know this guy is a good driver (as he has beaten me at karting before : ) ) and he has just come back from an advanced driver course at Hethel (the lotus factory). He's had the 111R for 6 months - more than enough time to get used to using that dual cam.
So basically, what does a Subaru have on the 111R around a track ?
I guess you could argue the 111R simply was not driven to capacity but the ease at which the lapping occured makes me think a Subaru must be a better car.
Sorry i cant provide more details on the Subaru's. I must say i was a little disappointed to here this story. After all the Elise is supposed to be an easy car to get the most otut off (i.e seen a few threads whereby people have exclaimed its easy to drive an elise "well" ).
Cheers
Scott
PS has anyone had them both ? what do you think ?
>> Edited by scotte on Wednesday 22 June 15:36
I may have mentioned before a mate has a 111R (and if he is reading this "i am jealous ! "
) - he mentioned he had a track day a month so ago. Anyway, first time he has been on the track and apparently all cars (most of which were Subaru’s) lapped him. Now i know this guy is a good driver (as he has beaten me at karting before : ) ) and he has just come back from an advanced driver course at Hethel (the lotus factory). He's had the 111R for 6 months - more than enough time to get used to using that dual cam.
So basically, what does a Subaru have on the 111R around a track ?
I guess you could argue the 111R simply was not driven to capacity but the ease at which the lapping occured makes me think a Subaru must be a better car.
Sorry i cant provide more details on the Subaru's. I must say i was a little disappointed to here this story. After all the Elise is supposed to be an easy car to get the most otut off (i.e seen a few threads whereby people have exclaimed its easy to drive an elise "well" ).
Cheers
Scott
PS has anyone had them both ? what do you think ?
>> Edited by scotte on Wednesday 22 June 15:36
not driven a 111R just S1s. Driven most hot Subarus: STI 5, 7, 22B, standard Turbo etctera etc.
I think Subarus are easy to get the most out of. You can lean on them in corners, let the car do all the work: you just aim it, and floor the throttle. Any imported STI will be around 300bhp (most are de-catted/exhaust etc).
The S1 is a more difficult car to get on top of. It takes time to learn. You can feel everything working and you know that while the car is more than capable, you have to drive it, tell it what to do which is in contrast to the Subaru.
Cross country, I can keep up with and have been known to overtake Subarus and Evos (one white evo 6 in particular got a shock!) I think, perhaps, your friend needs to drive harder!!
evo magazine suggested that the S2 Exige was basically unbeatable cross country - this was in comparison to a Challege Stradale, 911 GT3 RS and Noble M400. Although a 111R would be slower than an Exige, it would still be fairly mighty I would imagine.
I think Subarus are easy to get the most out of. You can lean on them in corners, let the car do all the work: you just aim it, and floor the throttle. Any imported STI will be around 300bhp (most are de-catted/exhaust etc).
The S1 is a more difficult car to get on top of. It takes time to learn. You can feel everything working and you know that while the car is more than capable, you have to drive it, tell it what to do which is in contrast to the Subaru.
Cross country, I can keep up with and have been known to overtake Subarus and Evos (one white evo 6 in particular got a shock!) I think, perhaps, your friend needs to drive harder!!
evo magazine suggested that the S2 Exige was basically unbeatable cross country - this was in comparison to a Challege Stradale, 911 GT3 RS and Noble M400. Although a 111R would be slower than an Exige, it would still be fairly mighty I would imagine.
scotte said:
Hi,
I may have mentioned before a mate has a 111R (and if he is reading this "i am jealous ! "
Anyway, first time he has been on the track and apparently all cars (most of which were Subaru’s) lapped him. Now i know this guy is a good driver (as he has beaten me at karting before : ) ) and he has just come back from an advanced driver course at Hethel (the lotus factory). He's had the 111R for 6 months - more than enough time to get used to using that dual cam.
So basically, what does a Subaru have on the 111R around a track ?
I guess you could argue the 111R simply was not driven to capacity but the ease at which the lapping occured makes me think a Subaru must be a better car.
Sorry i cant provide more details on the Subaru's. I must say i was a little disappointed to here this story. After all the Elise is supposed to be an easy car to get the most otut off (i.e seen a few threads whereby people have exclaimed its easy to drive an elise "well" ).
Cheers
Scott
PS has anyone had them both ? what do you think ?
>> Edited by scotte on Wednesday 22 June 15:36
I'm sorry I don't believe a word of this, I rip them all the time in My R this is very strange
Boggy
most subarus you would see on track days are modified, as its comparitively cheap and easy to do to them... I would guess if they were wrx or similarly based, 320bhp+ is easilly achievable, and with a bit more work, 350bhp is quite possible.
Subaru handling is v.good, and the 4wd is impressive, esp if the track was a little damp or cold, this would make a big difference... ...however the elises have exceptional handling, and more than capable of keeping up with a saloon (regardless of pedigree) through the twisties..
I think the main issue here is which track (you may have mentioned this, and I just didnt read). On a fairly open high speed track like thruxton, the subaru would prob have faster lap-times, however on a twisty track like anglsea, I would expect the elise to show the subaru a clean set of heels!
Because they are common (and a lot of chav's are getting their hands on them as the prices fall) its quite easy to forget just how potent an impreza/lancer actually is.. to put it into context, a std wrx or evo 7 will pretty much live with a skyline/nsx around a circuit. The saloons are heavier than the s2 elise, but they have the power and traction to overcome that so they tend to punch well above their weight!
Also, dont underestimate driver skill... No offence; your mate might be able to beat you at go-karting, and may have done his advanced driving test, but that doesnt make him a good driver on a circuit! Ive seen a good friend of mine (who has 35+ years experience racing in rally, saloons, single seaters, endurance - M3's and 911's, etc.) destroy people who think they are good drivers, and have 75+bhp/ton advantage over him... ...practice, practice, practice!!
At the end of the day, a track day should be a chance to drive at 75-90% of your abilities, and have fun, not driving on the limit all day and scaring the s**t out of yourself and everyone else.. ..theres far too much macho bulls**t and quoting of facts-n-figures going on at some events in the UK, and its just boring... I think people who turn-up and drive clean, fast, confident laps all day, trying to beat themselves rather than everyone else, gets far more from the day..
Subaru handling is v.good, and the 4wd is impressive, esp if the track was a little damp or cold, this would make a big difference... ...however the elises have exceptional handling, and more than capable of keeping up with a saloon (regardless of pedigree) through the twisties..
I think the main issue here is which track (you may have mentioned this, and I just didnt read). On a fairly open high speed track like thruxton, the subaru would prob have faster lap-times, however on a twisty track like anglsea, I would expect the elise to show the subaru a clean set of heels!
Because they are common (and a lot of chav's are getting their hands on them as the prices fall) its quite easy to forget just how potent an impreza/lancer actually is.. to put it into context, a std wrx or evo 7 will pretty much live with a skyline/nsx around a circuit. The saloons are heavier than the s2 elise, but they have the power and traction to overcome that so they tend to punch well above their weight!
Also, dont underestimate driver skill... No offence; your mate might be able to beat you at go-karting, and may have done his advanced driving test, but that doesnt make him a good driver on a circuit! Ive seen a good friend of mine (who has 35+ years experience racing in rally, saloons, single seaters, endurance - M3's and 911's, etc.) destroy people who think they are good drivers, and have 75+bhp/ton advantage over him... ...practice, practice, practice!!
At the end of the day, a track day should be a chance to drive at 75-90% of your abilities, and have fun, not driving on the limit all day and scaring the s**t out of yourself and everyone else.. ..theres far too much macho bulls**t and quoting of facts-n-figures going on at some events in the UK, and its just boring... I think people who turn-up and drive clean, fast, confident laps all day, trying to beat themselves rather than everyone else, gets far more from the day..
(RE "I think people who turn-up and drive clean, fast, confident laps all day, trying to beat themselves rather than everyone else, get far more from the day.." )
interesting - i thought the idea of a track day was to beat everyone in sight. I take it the "track day veterans" tend to look down their noses at newbie's attempting to beat everyone ?
(RE: "I'm sorry I don't believe a word of this, I rip them all the time in My R this is very strange" )
i guess its was second hand info but why talk down your game. most would be far more likely to boast about their perfromance + car.
(RE" evo magazine suggested that the S2 Exige was basically unbeatable cross country - this was in comparison to a Challege Stradale, 911 GT3 RS and Noble M400. Although a 111R would be slower than an Exige, it would still be fairly mighty I would imagine" )
class ! thats what i like to hear
interesting - i thought the idea of a track day was to beat everyone in sight. I take it the "track day veterans" tend to look down their noses at newbie's attempting to beat everyone ?
(RE: "I'm sorry I don't believe a word of this, I rip them all the time in My R this is very strange" )
i guess its was second hand info but why talk down your game. most would be far more likely to boast about their perfromance + car.
(RE" evo magazine suggested that the S2 Exige was basically unbeatable cross country - this was in comparison to a Challege Stradale, 911 GT3 RS and Noble M400. Although a 111R would be slower than an Exige, it would still be fairly mighty I would imagine" )
class ! thats what i like to hear
Easy - the Subaru has a nice little computer doing all the work for you. You point and shoot and the car saves your ass and makes you look like Sebastien Loeb.
In the Elise, traction control comes with your right and left feet and deft inputs.
I'd like to see the Subaru boys take on Gavin Kershaw in an Elise around a track.
Is the Subaru a "better" car? Bit of a nonsensical question really isn't it, as "better" is such a subjective and moot point in this arena that it's almost not worth asking.
In the Elise, traction control comes with your right and left feet and deft inputs.
I'd like to see the Subaru boys take on Gavin Kershaw in an Elise around a track.
Is the Subaru a "better" car? Bit of a nonsensical question really isn't it, as "better" is such a subjective and moot point in this arena that it's almost not worth asking.
"At the end of the day, a track day should be a chance to drive at 75-90% of your abilities, and have fun, not driving on the limit all day and scaring the s**t out of yourself and everyone else.. ..theres far too much macho bulls**t and quoting of facts-n-figures going on at some events in the UK, and its just boring... I think people who turn-up and drive clean, fast, confident laps all day, trying to beat themselves rather than everyone else, gets far more from the day.."
firstly a big ding to above - spot on IMO.
secondly - the 4wd rally reps are a damn site easier to drive fast, and therefore flatter the average driver...an Elise isnt *that* easy to get the best out of...I suspect your mate could have jumped in any of the Scoobies and driven them just as quick as many of their owners....but this may not have been the same vice versa - take someone who is used to 4wd and electrickery and stick them in a mid engine, RWD car, with a decent amount of power and no electronic aids and watch them spin
firstly a big ding to above - spot on IMO.
secondly - the 4wd rally reps are a damn site easier to drive fast, and therefore flatter the average driver...an Elise isnt *that* easy to get the best out of...I suspect your mate could have jumped in any of the Scoobies and driven them just as quick as many of their owners....but this may not have been the same vice versa - take someone who is used to 4wd and electrickery and stick them in a mid engine, RWD car, with a decent amount of power and no electronic aids and watch them spin
scotte said:
interesting - i thought the idea of a track day was to beat everyone in sight. I take it the "track day veterans" tend to look down their noses at newbie's attempting to beat everyone ?
Er no thats the point of a race. Trackdays are about exploring and exploiting your car in a fun and non competitive environment. Inevitably theres a degree of comparison, but its not what its about.
I've got a fast car and on track plenty of better drivers in sheds get past me
scotte said:
(RE" evo magazine suggested that the S2 Exige was basically unbeatable cross country - this was in comparison to a Challege Stradale, 911 GT3 RS and Noble M400. Although a 111R would be slower than an Exige, it would still be fairly mighty I would imagine" )
I don't see an Exige keeping up with any of those cross country except for perhaps the RS because its setup so stiffly.
generally speaking a well driven lotus elise will be quicker round a circuit than a well driven imprezza this is shown by magazine track shoot outs etc etc.
As to your mate its no wonder hes getting lapped all over the place if its his first time on the track, i remember reading about the guy who bought Schueys 2002 F1 car his first laps were well down on the pace even after getting more confident he was still slower than the test drivers putting the 360 round the same circuit.
I believe his final times after a lot of coaching from the F1 pit guys was on a par with a enzo now he had far more practise an track experiance than your mate he had a load of F1 tecks telling him exactly were he could go faster using the onboard data from the laptop an he had a machine that was without doubt vastly superior to any road machine an i mean not a bit quicker but a whole different ball park here yet he only just matched the test driver in a road car a fast one i grant you but a enzo to a f1 car is like a enzo to a daewoo matiz its that big a gap, an the reason is he didnt have the experiance of the car or track an it will take him time to get it.
You mate is the same hes got a car thats more than likely the equal or better of most of the road cars (including those imprezza's) on that track but its gonna take him time to master it an 6 months on the road an a afternoon at lotus do not a micheal schumacher make
As to your mate its no wonder hes getting lapped all over the place if its his first time on the track, i remember reading about the guy who bought Schueys 2002 F1 car his first laps were well down on the pace even after getting more confident he was still slower than the test drivers putting the 360 round the same circuit.
I believe his final times after a lot of coaching from the F1 pit guys was on a par with a enzo now he had far more practise an track experiance than your mate he had a load of F1 tecks telling him exactly were he could go faster using the onboard data from the laptop an he had a machine that was without doubt vastly superior to any road machine an i mean not a bit quicker but a whole different ball park here yet he only just matched the test driver in a road car a fast one i grant you but a enzo to a f1 car is like a enzo to a daewoo matiz its that big a gap, an the reason is he didnt have the experiance of the car or track an it will take him time to get it.
You mate is the same hes got a car thats more than likely the equal or better of most of the road cars (including those imprezza's) on that track but its gonna take him time to master it an 6 months on the road an a afternoon at lotus do not a micheal schumacher make
S Works said:
Easy - the Subaru has a nice little computer doing all the work for you.
I think you may be wrong there. Evo's have a lot of cunning electronics, but Scoobies do not (no cunning Active Yaw or Traction control here. Granted it does have EBD, but what car doesn't these days). They do however have very capable (mechanical) 4WD that does make them easier to drive.
Personally speaking, having driven a couple of Scoobies and an S2 Exige, the Exige would win hands down.... and you would have more fun at the same time.
Driver input counts for everything.
2 guys from the South Wales Club Lotus group had hot laps about 2 years ago in a standard Elise S2 with one of the factory drivers who was doing 1m 18s laps at Castle Combe.
I went to a recent Porsche track day at Combe where decent drivers were doing 1m 22s in 996 GT3RS's which cost £100K!!!
Well driven I would expect an Elise / Exige to dominate as long as the straights were not to long. Times for them at the Nurburgring are not too good due to the time the cars spend above 100 mph.
2 guys from the South Wales Club Lotus group had hot laps about 2 years ago in a standard Elise S2 with one of the factory drivers who was doing 1m 18s laps at Castle Combe.
I went to a recent Porsche track day at Combe where decent drivers were doing 1m 22s in 996 GT3RS's which cost £100K!!!
Well driven I would expect an Elise / Exige to dominate as long as the straights were not to long. Times for them at the Nurburgring are not too good due to the time the cars spend above 100 mph.
just an aside, and to re-enforce what I said earlier...
the last track day I went to was at donnington about 18months ago, and i wasnt really practicing what I preach on that occasion; I turned up with 2 race prepped M3's which is kind of cheating!..
There were a lot of cosworth/impreza/lancer owners there with "400hp and nitrous mate!" but after about 3 laps they were pitting because their brakes were cooked, and they were knackered!..
There were a number of caterfields there as usual, whizzing round and having fun, but again they were pitting every 10-15 laps because they were knackered and the cars needed a rest..
There were a couple of exotics there, and the owners just didnt talk to anyone; did a couple of superfast laps, then came in for a chat/boast in their little click
The one guy who stood out to me was driving a black fiat strada arbath; he was out all day just going round and round.. he came in for the compulsory breaks, but other than that, he was first out, and last back.. The car looked like it cost about £500, plus some tweaks, but he was obviously in tune with it and a really capable driver, as he was equaling the caterhams laptimes!..
At the end of the day this guy had the biggest grin on his face, and then drove home in the car!..
This is the essence of track-days imho; get out on the track, have fun, and screw everyone else, but do it in something you are capable of driving easilly close to the cars limits (ie your 75% is the cars 110%) and you will have a lot of fun... turn up in something whos 60% is your 110% and your just going to get tired, annoy everyone else, and possibly do yourself (and worse still the car) some damage!
...carlsberg dont do track days, but if they did...
b
the last track day I went to was at donnington about 18months ago, and i wasnt really practicing what I preach on that occasion; I turned up with 2 race prepped M3's which is kind of cheating!..
There were a lot of cosworth/impreza/lancer owners there with "400hp and nitrous mate!" but after about 3 laps they were pitting because their brakes were cooked, and they were knackered!..
There were a number of caterfields there as usual, whizzing round and having fun, but again they were pitting every 10-15 laps because they were knackered and the cars needed a rest..
There were a couple of exotics there, and the owners just didnt talk to anyone; did a couple of superfast laps, then came in for a chat/boast in their little click
The one guy who stood out to me was driving a black fiat strada arbath; he was out all day just going round and round.. he came in for the compulsory breaks, but other than that, he was first out, and last back.. The car looked like it cost about £500, plus some tweaks, but he was obviously in tune with it and a really capable driver, as he was equaling the caterhams laptimes!..
At the end of the day this guy had the biggest grin on his face, and then drove home in the car!..
This is the essence of track-days imho; get out on the track, have fun, and screw everyone else, but do it in something you are capable of driving easilly close to the cars limits (ie your 75% is the cars 110%) and you will have a lot of fun... turn up in something whos 60% is your 110% and your just going to get tired, annoy everyone else, and possibly do yourself (and worse still the car) some damage!
...carlsberg dont do track days, but if they did...
b
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