After market supercharging a 111s
Discussion
I'm at the stage of window-shopping Elises. Which is a bit like having a load of jigsaw pieces laid out on a table, but not having started. Oh well.
So far, and ignoring purchase prices (which are massively different), I've separated out the K-series 156bhp 111s; the Toyota engined 189bhp 111r; and the 217bhp SC.
My somewhat primitive approach to cars has a default position of "more power is better". However, from what I read, the R can be an acquired taste due to the power delivery, and plenty who've driven all three of the above place the R third. The S seems to be very well loved. The SC is loved, but not as much as the S, has a higher price tag than the other two, and is realistically more than I want to spend.
Which led me to think about an S with an after market supercharger. The obvious fitting candidates seem to be Essex Automotive, Hanger 111 and (I think) the factory. Prices are around £5k +/- 1k.
So my question is this: is it worth (a deliberately vague word) getting a sub £15k S and supercharging it? Does that give the best of all worlds, or do you end up with a dog's dinner? I can see downsides of (a) potential engine issues that might require a long trip back to the fitter; (b) lengthy calls to insurers to get realistic quotes; (c) having a modded car that may be hard to sell on if it turns out to be a bit of a dog; (d) why go for a poor man's SC when I could wait for the real thing?
Upsides are (potentially) a gruntier version of what seems to be a lot of - if not most - people's favourite variant. On that point, does anyone have an idea of how much bhp could be added to the K-series engine with a supercharger?
TIA for any insights/views.
So far, and ignoring purchase prices (which are massively different), I've separated out the K-series 156bhp 111s; the Toyota engined 189bhp 111r; and the 217bhp SC.
My somewhat primitive approach to cars has a default position of "more power is better". However, from what I read, the R can be an acquired taste due to the power delivery, and plenty who've driven all three of the above place the R third. The S seems to be very well loved. The SC is loved, but not as much as the S, has a higher price tag than the other two, and is realistically more than I want to spend.
Which led me to think about an S with an after market supercharger. The obvious fitting candidates seem to be Essex Automotive, Hanger 111 and (I think) the factory. Prices are around £5k +/- 1k.
So my question is this: is it worth (a deliberately vague word) getting a sub £15k S and supercharging it? Does that give the best of all worlds, or do you end up with a dog's dinner? I can see downsides of (a) potential engine issues that might require a long trip back to the fitter; (b) lengthy calls to insurers to get realistic quotes; (c) having a modded car that may be hard to sell on if it turns out to be a bit of a dog; (d) why go for a poor man's SC when I could wait for the real thing?
Upsides are (potentially) a gruntier version of what seems to be a lot of - if not most - people's favourite variant. On that point, does anyone have an idea of how much bhp could be added to the K-series engine with a supercharger?
TIA for any insights/views.
SC vs supercharged Honda - watch the gap open up on the straights...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmYYbwYQa0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmYYbwYQa0
By the time you're supercharged a good 111S you might as could almost have bought an Elise SC for what it'll cost. The Hangar 111 kit seems good, but unless you have a specific reason to keep the K-series (competition regulations for example) there are better options available IMO as at the end of it you'll still have the weaknesses of a high power K-series.
Personally the SC (and MY12 S) are my favourite Elise models. Engine conversions can get good engines in to the back of the car, but have issues as well.
I'd probably look at a 111R with lowered cam change, and then if you decide you want more power later you can get an official or third-party supercharger upgrade later.
Personally the SC (and MY12 S) are my favourite Elise models. Engine conversions can get good engines in to the back of the car, but have issues as well.
I'd probably look at a 111R with lowered cam change, and then if you decide you want more power later you can get an official or third-party supercharger upgrade later.
Thorburn said:
By the time you're supercharged a good 111S you might as could almost have bought an Elise SC for what it'll cost. The Hangar 111 kit seems good, but unless you have a specific reason to keep the K-series (competition regulations for example) there are better options available IMO as at the end of it you'll still have the weaknesses of a high power K-series.
Personally the SC (and MY12 S) are my favourite Elise models. Engine conversions can get good engines in to the back of the car, but have issues as well.
I'd probably look at a 111R with lowered cam change, and then if you decide you want more power later you can get an official or third-party supercharger upgrade later.
I'd noticed a couple of references to lowering the cam shift on the R. How low can it be set? 4000rpm? I take it there's no easy way, or perhaps no way at all, to get rid of the brake servo assistance on the R, is there? Personally the SC (and MY12 S) are my favourite Elise models. Engine conversions can get good engines in to the back of the car, but have issues as well.
I'd probably look at a 111R with lowered cam change, and then if you decide you want more power later you can get an official or third-party supercharger upgrade later.
Most reflashes lower the cam change point to about 5700rpm. The main effect is to smooth out the transition and allow upshifts at lower revs without dropping off the high lift cam. They often don't do anything to alter the mid range torque curve below the cam change point.
There are, however, other reflashes which will get you more torque at lower revs, in conjunction with intake and exhaust mods.
I've got the lowered cam change on mine, and I like it, but I didn't hate it how it was. I find that it has enough performance at low revs for day to day driving and the top end is a gear change away when I want it. Short-shifting just before the cam change point (before I had the reflash) Dynolicious says the car does 0-60 in 6.9 seconds - about the same as a middle league hot hatch being mercilessly thrashed, so adequate.
There are, however, other reflashes which will get you more torque at lower revs, in conjunction with intake and exhaust mods.
I've got the lowered cam change on mine, and I like it, but I didn't hate it how it was. I find that it has enough performance at low revs for day to day driving and the top end is a gear change away when I want it. Short-shifting just before the cam change point (before I had the reflash) Dynolicious says the car does 0-60 in 6.9 seconds - about the same as a middle league hot hatch being mercilessly thrashed, so adequate.
On the servo assistance, not that I know of. You can, however, adjust the pedal positions so that the movement of the brake pedal is much less of an impediment to heel & toe. I really like the pedal feel on the Rover cars, but then for a road car there is a lot to be said for having ABS. Whether you could get the unassisted feel without losing the antilock function, I don't know either. Suspect not.
Greg66 said:
I'd noticed a couple of references to lowering the cam shift on the R. How low can it be set? 4000rpm? I take it there's no easy way, or perhaps no way at all, to get rid of the brake servo assistance on the R, is there?
What happens as standard is you effectively go past peak power for the first cam and performance starts to fall off, then it gives you a kick in the back as you move over to the higher lift.The remap just drops it 500rpm or so iirc, but that means the transition occurs pretty much at peak power for the low lift cam, so is less jarring. Lowering it further would presumably make it slower, and I don't think you can't use the high lift cam before oil pressure or temperature (can't remember which) is past a certain level so it would be quite annoying if you needed to pull away quickly if the engine was cold as you'd have a 4000rpm rev limit.
Thorburn said:
What happens as standard is you effectively go past peak power for the first cam and performance starts to fall off, then it gives you a kick in the back as you move over to the higher lift.
The remap just drops it 500rpm or so iirc, but that means the transition occurs pretty much at peak power for the low lift cam, so is less jarring. Lowering it further would presumably make it slower, and I don't think you can't use the high lift cam before oil pressure or temperature (can't remember which) is past a certain level so it would be quite annoying if you needed to pull away quickly if the engine was cold as you'd have a 4000rpm rev limit.
Ah - got it. That makes sense. Thanks. The remap just drops it 500rpm or so iirc, but that means the transition occurs pretty much at peak power for the low lift cam, so is less jarring. Lowering it further would presumably make it slower, and I don't think you can't use the high lift cam before oil pressure or temperature (can't remember which) is past a certain level so it would be quite annoying if you needed to pull away quickly if the engine was cold as you'd have a 4000rpm rev limit.
I remember reading something Dave Walker wrote in CCC about Honda VTEC engines - I think this may have been B-series engines - the car was making more torque on the high lift cam all the way through the rev range, the issues at low revs were economy, emissions and excessive cam wear related to lack of oil wedge effect. I don't know whether the Toyota engine has similar characteristics.
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